Beyoncé feminist?

Morag

http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/beyonce-replaces-sheryl-sandberg-as-worlds-most-controversia

Beyoncé covers Ms. magazine under the headline “Beyoncé’s Fierce Feminism.” The internet’s knee-jerk reaction — which has gotten more attention in the media than the actual story itself has — has been to rudely refute, or at least to politely question, Beyoncé’s feminist status.

And yet Beyoncé tours with an all-female band — something she’s done for a long time — and calls herself a feminist in interviews. These acts in themselves are more significant than they might seem. Watch a Beyoncé concert DVD or one of her live shows, and the fact that she has no men on stage with her is something you notice because it’s so, so rarely done. And a lot of very famous and influential women won’t even call themselves feminists. Even Miuccia Prada, one of the most influential designers of clothing for women all over the world, expressed uncertainty last year about whether or not fashion and feminism can mix. And in 2010, Prada told reporters that “there is no such thing” as feminism. Gwyneth Paltrow, Lady Gaga, and Marissa Mayer have all told the press they’re not feminists. Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of fear associated with that label and confusion about what it means.

“[W]e need not dismiss Beyoncé’s brand of feminism as mere marketing,” Hobson writes. “Feminism is political consciousness, not a product.” On top of labeling herself a feminist, Hobson notes that Beyoncé has advocated for women’s financial independence for a long time through songs like “Bills, Bills, Bills” and “Irreplaceable.”

Part of our discomfort with Beyoncé’s feminist message may be that we really don’t know that much about her, despite her mega fame and ubiquity. She exacts fierce control over her image and guards the personal details about her life that might clear up some of the questions people have about how much she lives out feminist ideals. But ultimately, that in itself shows just how powerful Beyoncé has become — to be that famous for what she creates rather than any scandals that might have befallen her (and no major ones have).

The debate surrounding Beyoncé’s feminism echoes the many debates women have about being women nowadays, as they find themselves unable to conform to a vague but fiercely idealistic notion of what a working mom should be. And sadly, the argument over Beyoncé’s feminist merits signifies the discomfort society has with women upending social norms and starting to run the world. Maybe Beyoncé’s notions of what this looks like are poorly formed because in a world where Sheryl Sandberg gets so much flack for simply telling women to “lean in,” it’s so hard to imagine a world in which female power is a given rather than a novelty.

So really, Ms. couldn’t have found a better cover model. Beyoncé is an extremely powerful woman who sings many empowering lyrics and who is making it OK to forge a new path for feminism.

I'm curious to what the loungers think. Personally I've not been sure but the more I read the more I thinks she is but I do think that even if a person says they are a feminist that we are all human and doing the best we can and none of us are perfect.

What do you think?

28064212

Morag wrote: »

http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/beyonce-replaces-sheryl-sandberg-as-worlds-most-controversia

I'm curious to what the loungers think. Personally I've not been sure but the more I read the more I thinks she is but I do think that even if a person says they are a feminist that we are all human and doing the best we can and none of us are perfect.

What do you think?

The most disturing thing about the article is that the author apparently thinks "excluding men" means the same thing as feminism. Now there are plenty of (valid) reasons for Beyonce to have only women on stage, but it is not even remotely related to feminism. In fact, it's nearly the exact opposite.

meeeeh

That reminds me way to much of Spice Girls. So to be feminist is enough to sing some pop songs with not very good lyrics and have all female dance crew.

She might not call herself feminist but I'd much rather have Prada as a role model.

MagicMarker

Is having an all female band feminism or sexism?

ahnowbrowncow

So she's more sexist than feminist?

Morag

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is having an all female band feminism or sexism?

It depends on the motivation I guess.
If it's to solely exclude men then I would say it's sexist, if it's to give more women a break in the industry then I don't think it's that it's for sexist reasons more to counter act sexism she is aware of.

like this

http://www.3news.co.nz/No-women-no-drama--Buble/tabid/418/articleID/294398/Default.aspx

Michael Buble wants to make his tours men-only because surrounding himself with women on the road leads to "break-ups" and "drama".

The Canadian crooner admits he tried to put a stop to employees dating each other during his tours but the romance ban didn't work, and he now feels apprehensive about having female roadies working on his shows.

He tells Britain's Seven magazine, "I say, 'There's no relationships on the road,' and they say to me, 'Of course we're not going to have relationships. We are professionals and we have a boyfriend at home.' The next thing you know they're sleeping with the sound guy. And then the sound guy is fighting over another girl and it becomes a drama.

"It's an incestuous life. Let's make it easy. Every time I've had female crew we've had serious break-ups and yellings (sic). Obviously I love women. It's not about not loving women. It's about I don't want to be surrounded by drama."

meeeeh

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

So she's more sexist than feminist?

Or maybe she is just commercialist?

loveisdivine

Some paper was calling her an "Earth Mother" the other day too. I think she'll call herself whatever makes her more money.

She might class herself as a feminist, but she also called her latest tour "The Mrs. Carter Tour"

kylith

I would be of the opinion that Beyoncé is not a feminist. Simply going by her music, which is all I can do since it's all I know of the woman, the two that stick out are 'Keep paying my bills or I'll dump you' (Bills bills bills) and 'I'm going to dump you if you don't propose to me' (Single Ladies). She then threw 'Independent Woman' out there, but she's not fooling anyone. She seems to be peddling the usual 'You need a man to marry you and pay your bills so you can be happy' rubbish.

Morag

meeeeh wrote: »

That reminds me way to much of Spice Girls. So to be feminist is enough to sing some pop songs with not very good lyrics and have all female dance crew.

She might not call herself feminist but I'd much rather have Prada as a role model.

She does and the base line for that is to believe that men and women should be equal and have equal rights, how that does or doesn't get expressed by her is what makes for debate on it.

seenitall

LOL.

Her latest oeuvre, "Bow Down Bitches" neatly encapsulates the 'Queen' Bey's world view and where she places herself, and herself alone, in the order of things.

Just like her husband, it's all about money and ego, in no particular order.

Hardly empowering, inspiring, or even mildly interesting, IMO.

(Also, the least said about Mr Carter's views on women, the better.)

enfant terrible

kylith wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that Beyoncé is not a feminist. Simply going by her music, which is all I can do since it's all I know of the woman, the two that stick out are 'Keep paying my bills or I'll dump you' (Bills bills bills) and 'I'm going to dump you if you don't propose to me' (Single Ladies). She then threw 'Independent Woman' out there, but she's not fooling anyone. She seems to be peddling the usual 'You need a man to marry you and pay your bills so you can be happy' rubbish.

Agreed inspiring lyrics

"Can you pay my bills?
Can you pay my telephone bills?
Do you pay my automo' bills?
If you did then maybe we could chill
I don't think you do
So, you and me are through"

Morag

Bills Bills Bill was released by Destiny's child in June 1999,
is it possible that her stance on things has changed some what over the last 14 years?

More lyrics of Bills Bills Bills are

"Now you've been maxing out my card," "And then you use my cell phone / Callin' whoever that you think's at home / And then, when the bill comes / All of a sudden you be acting dumb,"

and

"And now you ask to use my car / Drive it all day and don't fill up the tank."

So I wouldn't say it's about getting someone to pay her bills but more about paying his share.

enfant terrible

Morag wrote: »

Bills Bills Bill was released by Destiny's child in June 1999,
is it possible that her stance on things has changed some what over the last 14 years?

More lyrics of Bills Bills Bills are

"Now you've been maxing out my card," "And then you use my cell phone / Callin' whoever that you think's at home / And then, when the bill comes / All of a sudden you be acting dumb,"

and

"And now you ask to use my car / Drive it all day and don't fill up the tank."

So I wouldn't say it's about getting someone to pay her bills but more about paying his share.

Think your taking it too seriously, doubt she wrote that song or cared what the lyrics were about.

meeeeh

Morag wrote: »

She does and the base line for that is to believe that men and women should be equal and have equal rights, how that does or doesn't get expressed by her is what makes for debate on it.

My problem is that way to much attention is given to what somebody says about themselves. I don't know what Prada is and I don't know what Beyonce is. I'm pretty sure they define feminism differently.

Beyonce can have whoever she wants in her group, she can have whatever world philosophy she wants but in global therms the only one that matters is the one that is known to general public - her music and her lyrics. And to say those are feminist is a stretch.

Morag

enfant terrible wrote: »

Think your taking it too seriously, doubt she wrote that song or cared what the lyrics were about.

Your the one who quoted the chorus.

oh and she was one of the song's writers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bills_Bills_Bills

"Bills, Bills, Bills"
Single by Destiny's Child
from the album The Writing's on the Wall
Released June 15, 1999 United States
July 12, 1999 United Kingdom
Genre R&B, hip hop
Length 4:16
Label Columbia
Writer(s) Kevin Briggs, Kandi Burruss, Beyoncé Knowles, LeToya Luckett, Kelly Rowland
Producer Kevin "She'kspere" Briggs

enfant terrible

Morag wrote: »

Your the one who quoted the chorus.

oh and she was one of the song's writers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bills_Bills_Bills

I know just thought it was funny her being a feminist and wanting a guy to pay her bills.

Five writers for those lyrics

She was saying don't use her stuff e.g. car/phone unless you are going to pay it

enfant terrible

bluewolf wrote: »

She was saying don't use her stuff e.g. car/phone unless you are going to pay it

Kinda selfish no? :P

How so Joe

enfant terrible wrote: »

Kinda selfish no? :P

Yeah, cuz when someone maxes out my credit card and doesn't pay me back, I'm always real thrilled with that...

The song is about his running up bills using her stuff and not paying them, not her asking to be a kept woman.

enfant terrible

How so Joe wrote: »

Yeah, cuz when someone maxes out my credit card and doesn't pay me back, I'm always real thrilled with that...

The song is about his running up bills using her stuff and not paying them, not her asking to be a kept woman.

I'll pay you back jeez :P

Hobson notes that Beyoncé has advocated for women’s financial independence for a long time through songs like “Bills, Bills, Bills” and “Irreplaceable.”

The lyrics of that so are insanely sexist. If a man sang a lyric about having

'another you, in a minute'
'Don't ever get to thinking you're irreplaceable'

'And keep talking that mess, thats fine
Could you walk and talk, at the same time?
And it's my name thats on that jag
So go move your bags, let me call you a cab'

he'd be completely lambasted.

Beyoncé is an extremely powerful woman who sings many empowering lyrics and who is making it OK to forge a new path for feminism.

I'm not going down any path that Beyonce forges, since I'm pretty sure Beyonce is not motivated by the empowerment of anyone other than Beyonce. Laughable.

Lisha

I like Beyonce's music. I enjoy the music up loud while I'm doing housework chilling whatever.
I think she gives 100%+ to her live shows and I respect her for that.
So do I need to see her nether regions constantly in her music videos?
Nope, no I do not. This to me contradicts any feminist message she might adopt in order to sell her music.
All this empowering women crap by them encouraging a man to pay their bills bills bills us just crap.
To me feminism is more about equality.
My husband and I try to work as a team thus allowing each other time to parent, work, socialise, and follow hobbies as much as possible.
To me feminism allows each gender the space to follow their own hopes and dreams. Sometimes the pursuit of feminism squashes equality this is a pity.

So do I think Beyonce is a feminist?
No I don't really. But I do admire her determination and work ethic .

SarahBeep!

Candie wrote: »

The lyrics of that so are insanely sexist. If a man sang a lyric about having

'another you, in a minute'
'Don't ever get to thinking you're irreplaceable'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npW35bpmZfc

Wompa1

A lady who gyrates her bits on stage and in videos and is married to a guy who made a living using the word 'bitch' is a feminist? If she wants to call herself a feminist than I guess, fair play to her...

Tigger99

Lisha wrote: »

I like Beyonce's music. I enjoy the music up loud while I'm doing housework chilling whatever.
I think she gives 100%+ to her live shows and I respect her for that.
So do I need to see her nether regions constantly in her music videos?
Nope, no I do not. This to me contradicts any feminist message she might adopt in order to sell her music.
All this empowering women crap by them encouraging a man to pay their bills bills bills us just crap.
To me feminism is more about equality.
My husband and I try to work as a team thus allowing each other time to parent, work, socialise, and follow hobbies as much as possible.
To me feminism allows each gender the space to follow their own hopes and dreams. Sometimes the pursuit of feminism squashes equality this is a pity.

So do I think Beyonce is a feminist?
No I don't really. But I do admire her determination and work ethic .

I was thinking the very same thing today about Beyonce and her music videos.

On another point, equality is about women having the same choices as men. Somebody mentioned that she couldn't be a feminist because she chooses to be called Mrs. Carter.

I'm a feminist and I'd probably be happy to take a partner's name if I was ever to get married. Like I said tis all about choices.

Lisha

Tigger99 wrote: »

I was thinking the very same thing today about Beyonce and her music videos.

On another point, equality is about women having the same choices as men. Somebody mentioned that she couldn't be a feminist because she chooses to be called Mrs. Carter.

I'm a feminist and I'd probably be happy to take a partner's name if I was ever to get married. Like I said tis all about choices.

Simply because of the strident resonances to the word 'feminist' I would describe myself as an equal rights believer.

I also think that everyone has the right to chose their own choices in life.

I am married and I did take my husband's name. My reasoning being that I wanted to have same name as our kids. That we now were a new family unit.
But each to their own, someone can keep their original name, take their husbands name, or double barrel the two. It's all good IMHO .

Millicent

Tigger99 wrote: »

I was thinking the very same thing today about Beyonce and her music videos.

On another point, equality is about women having the same choices as men. Somebody mentioned that she couldn't be a feminist because she chooses to be called Mrs. Carter.

I'm a feminist and I'd probably be happy to take a partner's name if I was ever to get married. Like I said tis all about choices.

I think it was more the point that she named an entire music tour that, not that she goes by her married name.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Ah now feminism is all a bit old fashioned, if she was really cutting edge she would be an egalitarian. :P

I wouldn't get too caught up with what image Beyonce puts out there. If it was cool tomorrow to be a Nazi, she'd be calling herself one in her next interview.

shoos

Like it said in the article, we really know far too little of Beyonce to decide whether or not she's a feminist. She's an extremely private artist and all we know of her is a brand, not the person. And that's great IMO, she has her artist persona but gets to remain and keep her family life absolutely to herself. If I were famous I'd like something similar.

But just because she wears certain outfits, dances very sexy and married Jay Z doesn't give us the right to say "no, you're not!!!". If you can't dance sexy or dress up in (mostly feckin amazing) stage outfits and costumes, then feminism is a pretty boring place to be. She's a star and she's absolutely rocking it. Doesn't automatically mean her morals aren't in line.

The fact she even says she's a feminist I have massive respect for. I remember reading an interview with Ellie Goulding and Marina and the Diamonds a few years back and when both were asked if they were feminists they couldn't have shouted no louder. Never seen Ellie Goulding dressing in leotards or shaking her booty on stage but does that mean she's any better than Beyonce?

Das Kitty

For the record, wanting to get married (Single Ladies), naming your tour something to do with that marriage, and dressing prevocatively are not anti-feminist choices.

Feminism is about having the choices and being free to make them without persecution and hopefully without ridicule.

Jerrica

shoos wrote: »

The fact she even says she's a feminist I have massive respect for. I remember reading an interview with Ellie Goulding and Marina and the Diamonds a few years back and when both were asked if they were feminists they couldn't have shouted no louder. Never seen Ellie Goulding dressing in leotards or shaking her booty on stage but does that mean she's any better than Beyonce?

Das Kitty wrote: »

Feminism is about having the choices and being free to make them without persecution and hopefully without ridicule.

I'm reading Caitlin Moran's "How To Be A Woman" at the moment and she addresses these ideas really well. The simple fact is, by virtue of the fact that these women are living in a society where they can earn their own salaries, pretty much makes them feminists by proxy. People recoil at the idea of being a feminist because of the quite wrong image that feminism has gained over the years.

seenitall

Jerrica wrote: »

I'm reading Caitlin Moran's "How To Be A Woman" at the moment and she addresses these ideas really well. The simple fact is, by virtue of the fact that these women are living in a society where they can earn their own salaries, pretty much makes them feminists by proxy. People recoil at the idea of being a feminist because of the quite wrong image that feminism has gained over the years.

There is unfortunately no shotage of women out there with all kinds of anti-feminist or downright misogynstic 'values' who have no problem availing of all the advances in women's rights where it suits them. To afford these women the moniker of feminists (even if they wanted it, which I would assume not many of them do) would be insulting to all those who actually did fight for women's rights throughout history.

Don't confuse a certain lifestyle with a certain 'principle'; and check one of the lasts posts in the recent abortion thread on here for evidence of the power of delusion in people's heads (the one where a link is provided about many pro-life activists having abortions themselves and somehow being able to square their values and their actions all neatly together for themselves).

In short, if Ellie Goulding (whoever she is) is adamant that she is not a feminist, I'd be inclined to believe her.

meeeeh

So Margaret Thatcher is a feminist icon?

To be honest it's pretty clear that some movement is losing its momentum, when they are mostly preoccupied with themselves and with who should be part of their group or not.

Lyaiera

meeeeh wrote: »

So Margaret Thatcher is a feminist icon?

To be honest it's pretty clear that some movement is losing its momentum, when they are mostly preoccupied with themselves and with who should be part of their group or not.

Actually who is and isn't part of a group is one of the basic aspects of any movement that happens continuously. It's the foundation and real basis for growth. Examining who is and isn't included shows that a movement has reached an introspective stage and is willing to examine itself rather than acting in a reactionary way and defining themselves as an antithesis to others. This represents a movement becoming a collection of ideas that have been teased out. Self analysis is a middle stage of any group. Where the definition of a group is constantly debated self-determinism shows a movement is reaching a mature stage. The next stage would be an innate self awareness of who is and isn't, without a need for identifiers, shibboleths, jargon or exclusionary behaviour to maintain itself. That stage is quite close to dissolution of a group, although dissolution is typically a reaction to a change in circumstance where outside reasons for a movement no longer exist or the group has actualised.

Once self analysis begins it continues and the movement is likely to continue, even if it involves different movements and strains of the group identifying itself.

meeeeh

It's mobilizing or action power is gone though. At least that can be said for the movements in Eastern Europe, for Arab spring groups or, as far as I can judge, ANC.

Ambersky

Oh No No No feminisms mobilizing action and power are not gone, especially worldwide and outside of more western developed countries where some can afford to take a few things for granted. Worldwide there is so much going on and so much to do. Feminism is far from over and as they say I'll be post feminist when we have post patriarchy and that days not here yet.

meeeeh said
It's mobilizing or action power is gone though. At least that can be said for the movements in Eastern Europe, for Arab spring groups or, as far as I can judge, ANC.

Do you know about the backlash some of the women actively involved in the Arab spring have suffered in order to put women back in their box?
Have a read here and elsewhere.
The Arab Spring’s misogynist winter http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arab-spring-misogynist-winter-article-1.1024659

While you are on the subject Google womens empowerment and you will get a start to all the links to what is going on worldwide.

http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/ourwork/womenempowerment/overview.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ54RWMjS3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BJsvklXhYaE

meeeeh

Sorry I worded my response wrong. I ment that unity of any kind of movement disintegrates after main objection is achieved or appears to be archieved. Different fractions start and some of them can be still powerful but the big unifying force behind it is gone.

Femme_Fatale

That If I Were A Boy song (and it's "man" btw - what's this "boy" **** about?) and Who Run The World (Girls)... euch. Embarrassment overload.

Bitching and moaning about men... yet dressing like a stripper - yay! Ditto Pussycat Dolls.

I don't know what Beyonce believes or how she lives her life, but if we're going to deal with her image and the messages she gives to young people, I would say she's certainly not propagating feminism.

Feminism (to me) is about equal rights for women, equal respect for women, equal opportunities, responsibilities and social regard for women, as there are for men.

Beyonce, however, seems to me to swing between two extremes at her leisure: she sometimes shows women to be sexual objects whose main power is the ability to manipulate, and then she turns around and shows women as being better than men. Neither situation concerns equality. The word "empowerment" is thrown around a lot, but it reeks of inequality, or at least seems misplaced, to me.

Yes, a lot of her songs are about women, and a lot of her videos/concerts show mainly women, but the way in which she seems to have a very clear separation between the roles of women and men seems somewhat "us vs. them". That's not to say that women and men aren't different, or that there's anything wrong with feeling a bond/camaraderie with others of the same gender as you, but I certainly feel less than "empowered" by her image/message.

enfant terrible

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

That If I Were A Boy song (and it's "man" btw - what's this "boy" **** about?) and Who Run The World (Girls)... euch. Embarrassment overload.

Bitching and moaning about men... yet dressing like a stripper - yay! Ditto Pussycat Dolls.

A girl names BC Jean actually wrote If I Were a Boy.

Beyonce just released her version of BC Jean's song before Jean got the chance too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Were_a_Boy#Jean.27s_response

I prefer her version, has more emotion in it, not surprising I suppose since she wrote the song

Jerrica

seenitall wrote: »

There is unfortunately no shotage of women out there with all kinds of anti-feminist or downright misogynstic 'values' who have no problem availing of all the advances in women's rights where it suits them. To afford these women the moniker of feminists (even if they wanted it, which I would assume not many of them do) would be insulting to all those who actually did fight for women's rights throughout history.

true-or-false wrote: »

Feminism (to me) is about equal rights for women, equal respect for women, equal opportunities, responsibilities and social regard for women, as there are for men.

Maybe feminism is about giving women the choice to be whomever they want to be, and still be afforded the same rights as a man would for doing it. Isn't that what having rights is all about? The freedom to use them as you so wish? Does having rights mean that you carry a burden of responsibility to use them in an "ideal" way?

seenitall

If feminism is about freedom and choice (which, of course, it is ), then we have to respect the freedom and choice of those women who declare themselves as not being feminist, too.

Which would mean not nominally lumping them in there (feminist by proxy??) just because they also choose to avail of the gains in the social/economic equality that have been made in the past century.

It takes more than a certain lifestyle to be feminist, just as it takes more than paying lip-service to it to be it. Two sides of the same coin.

Also applicable to a wide range of social/political attitudes or movements, not just feminism.

Jerrica

seenitall wrote: »

If feminism is about freedom and choice (which, of course, it is ), then we have to respect the freedom and choice of those women who declare themselves as not being feminist, too.

That's absolutely fair enough.

But if I were to be really cheeky, I'd suggest that a lot of women who declare themselves not to be "feminist" have it arse over backwards what feminism really is.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean when you say

it takes more than paying lip-service to it to be [feminist]

seenitall

Jerrica wrote: »

That's absolutely fair enough.

But if I were to be really cheeky, I'd suggest that a lot of women who declare themselves not to be "feminist" have it arse over backwards what feminism really is.

Yes, you see, I wouldn't go there myself. When someone says "I'm not a feminist", they either:

A) know what feminism is and are not a feminist, or

(to simplify it) don't have a clue what they are talking about, in which case they can hardly be even slightly interested in the subject, in which case they are, again, not a feminist.

To answer your question, paying lip-service to an idea means endorsing it off-handedly or disingenuously i.e. insincerely, usually to further one's own benefit in some shape or form. IMO (and to go back neatly on topic ), Beyonce is a case in point. Yes, she declared herself a feminist, and then she exhorts people? women? to "Bow Down Bitches". Which message of those two do you think will carry further? To paraphrase someone else on this thread, the only freedoms and choices that Beyonce wholeheartedly endorses are Beyonce's ones. And as someone else again on this thread said, if it were profitable to call herself a Nazi, she'd do that too. This is what comes across by means of these, um, mixed messages of hers.

Fine, you can call yourself a feminist, but don't expect to be taken seriously (which I'm sure, savy as she is, she doesn't).

Da Shins Kelly

I honestly don't know enough about Beyonce's personal life to make any judgement on her personal beliefs, which I think is pretty great. Like the article points out, her fame has been built exclusively on her talent, not on scandals, so it's not as though she's constantly pushing her way of life or values down everyone else's throats (just her music ). She's arguably the biggest recording artist in the world right now, and I do admire her work ethic.

As has already been said, feminism is about freedom of choice. If Beyonce wants to have a tour called 'Mrs. Carter' or have an all-female band or wear provocative clothing, so what? I don't really see any of that as being anti-feminism. Telling women they shouldn't do things like that is anti-feminism.

For the record too, Jay-Z has said that his relationship with Beyonce has made him reevaluate some of his music from the past too and that he regrets some of the songs he wrote back then since meeting her (not that all of his songs were hugely misogynistic, he has written some brilliant songs).

Also, how can so many people completely misinterpret the lyrics of that Bills song? It's not exactly the work of a wordsmith. :pac:

For what it's worth too, I actually think another female singer of the moment, Janelle Monae, is an incredibly positive female role model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEddixS-UoU

Femme_Fatale

Jerrica wrote: »

Maybe feminism is about giving women the choice to be whomever they want to be, and still be afforded the same rights as a man would for doing it. Isn't that what having rights is all about? The freedom to use them as you so wish? Does having rights mean that you carry a burden of responsibility to use them in an "ideal" way?

It's the mixed messages from her that make me view her as a bit of a joke though. If she wants to be old-skool and traditional, more power to her. If she wants to dress really sexy, she's got the body to go for it - and looks great.
This is at odds though with the putting-down-of-men nonsense she and her ilk tend to espouse. "I don't need no man... I don't do anything to please a man" and so on. Er... clearly you do, love. Which is absolutely grand, but why pretend otherwise? A woman doesn't have to go on about how much she dislikes men to show how feminist/"girl power" she is. It is actually possible to love men AND be an empowered woman!

And yeh, as someone pointed out: Jay "99 problems but a bitch ain't one" Z. Er... you go girl!

To me, there is a difference between a feminist and a person who agrees with some feminist views. I'd classify myself as the latter. And I'd classify Beyoncé as one, too (maybe). But I wouldn't say either of us are feminists. I have too many views that fly in the face of feminism (no problem with stripping as a job once there's no abuse obviously, or with nudey magazines; I love chivalry) and I think that definitely applies to Beyoncé also.
Just my view though.

Lyaiera

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But I wouldn't say either of us are feminists. I have too many views that fly in the face of feminism (no problem with stripping as a job once there's no abuse obviously, or with nudey magazines; I love chivalry)

You can be a feminist and not have a problem with nudey magazines and stripping. There are tonnes of sex-positive feminists who would be completely opposed to the anti-porn, all sex is rape radical feminists.

All sex is rape feminism takes a basic logical point and stretches it to absurdity. The basis of sex-positive freedom is consent, that once someone is happy to do something they should be free to do it. Radical feminists would debate the notion of women having the ability to consent due to all women living in a prejudicial and oppressive world, therefore despite feeling they can consent to participating in porn, in reality someone can't because they haven't been allowed the freedom to make the decision.

I'm all for sex-positive feminism. I think people should be able to engage in whatever sexual activity they want when it concerns consenting adults. However I would object to a lot of the sex industry as being exploitative, in that it's a last resort for a lot of women. Women who feel they have no other option, especially with the way society is set up. The difference I have is I wouldn't go so far as saying the haven't given consent or that they can't consent. A slightly flippant comparison is that no-one wants to work in McDonalds, but people are free to do so when they're not being forced to.

The sex industry can be exploitative and a lot of porn is misogynistic. However I don't think the porn industry is innately bad.

Da Shins Kelly

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But I wouldn't say either of us are feminists. I have too many views that fly in the face of feminism (no problem with stripping as a job once there's no abuse obviously, or with nudey magazines; I love chivalry) and I think that definitely applies to Beyoncé also.
Just my view though.

I think you're confused about what feminism actually is at its core. Stripping and nudity and other things related to sex aren't necessarily anti-feminism. If a woman chooses to be a stripper or a porn star or whatever, then that's her choice, and as has already been said, feminism is about having the freedom to make choices like that without being judged for it. Saying that women should never be strippers or porn stars or enjoy nudity or sex because it's not feminist is anti-feminist in itself. As long as a woman is not being forced into a life she doesn't want, then there's no problem with her doing whatever she wants with her own body.

Also, I've never found that Beyonce goes on about "hating" men. She's not a misandrist by any stretch of the imagination. I think she's a woman who enjoys her own femininity and sexuality and amplifies it in her public persona. Nothing wrong with that. Also, there's a difference between wanting and needing a man. To be fair, Beyonce doesn't need a man, but she clearly wants one, and there's nothing wrong with that either, hence the 'Mrs. Carter' stuff.

clairefontaine

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I think you're confused about what feminism actually is at its core. Stripping and nudity and other things related to sex aren't necessarily anti-feminism. If a woman chooses to be a stripper or a porn star or whatever, then that's her choice, and as has already been said, feminism is about having the freedom to make choices like that without being judged for it. Saying that women should never be strippers or porn stars or enjoy nudity or sex because it's not feminist is anti-feminist in itself. As long as a woman is not being forced into a life she doesn't want, then there's no problem with her doing whatever she wants with her own body.

Also, I've never found that Beyonce goes on about "hating" men. She's not a misandrist by any stretch of the imagination. I think she's a woman who enjoys her own femininity and sexuality and amplifies it in her public persona. Nothing wrong with that. Also, there's a difference between wanting and needing a man. To be fair, Beyonce doesn't need a man, but she clearly wants one, and there's nothing wrong with that either, hence the 'Mrs. Carter' stuff.

People like to say that, but in reality feminism did have a puritanical streak running through it.

Beyonce being a Feminist? Sure why not? No one even knows what it means anymore, if anything.