Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

qhe0i9zvfgdou8

dense wrote:

This investigation was so inept it didn't need outside influence to scupper it.

Would that have been true of investigations in rural Ireland 40 years ago.

ShowMeTheCash

dense wrote: »

Why do you think a number of family members hasnt been charged with withholding information? Too messy/too awkward at this stage.

Marys sister has claimed a family member told her what happened, on more than one occasion.

Why has that family member not been arrested for withholding?

My understanding is that this person has not forwarded their information to the investigation team.

In other words, they have withheld information pertaining to an investigation.

(The Gardai do appear to need to be spoon fed information in easy to understand nuggets before thinking about doing anything that might upset anyone, but they did do a bit of showboating arresting a randomer a couple of years back...)

I am fully aware of what is publicly known.
An accusation to what someone said is hear say.

Yes it requires further investigation but to charge someone for not coming forward requires proof and by proof it would need probably more than the testimony of a family member.

That being said, I agree it looks like this whole thing is being swept under the carpet, they do not want to get to the bottom of this.

dense

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Yes it requires further investigation but to charge someone for not coming forward requires proof and by proof it would need probably more than the testimony of a family member.

Would the person not just be arrested on "Suspicion" (of withholding) first?

Before being charged?


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/act/24/enacted/en/print.html

Why this hasnt happened I don't know.

ShowMeTheCash

dense wrote: »

Would the person not just be arrested on "Suspicion" (of withholding) first?

Before being charged?


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/act/24/enacted/en/print.html

Why this hasnt happened I don't know.

Well for a start you are sourcing statute from 2012 and laws from 1998 on a case that happened over 40 years ago.

To be charged with suspicion you still need credible evidence to be able to hold someone, hear say or their word against yours would probably result in them being released pretty sharpish once their own solicitor is involved.

I think the documentary has at very least brought this back into the public interest and some pressure has been put on the authorities.

But the Gardi in Ireland are corrupt and our political system a joke and our media a monopoly of powerful people who decide what gets published.

I just need to look how the McCabe whistle blower incident was handled and to what extent the government, Gardi and the media tried to pervert the law as it suited them.

dense

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Well for a start you are sourcing statute from 2012 and laws from 1998 on a case that happened over 40 years ago.

To be charged with suspicion you still need credible evidence to be able to hold someone, hear say or their word against yours would probably result in them being released pretty sharpish once their own solicitor is involved.

I think the documentary has at very least brought this back into the public interest and some pressure has been put on the authorities.

But the Gardi in Ireland are corrupt and our political system a joke and our media a monopoly of powerful people who decide what gets published.

I just need to look how the McCabe whistle blower incident was handled and to what extent the government, Gardi and the media tried to pervert the law as it suited them.

Are you saying that legislation can't apply retrospectively? It looks like that's what it's for, to me, but I could well be wrong!

If we were to consider the very same identical circumstances and an identical hypothetical case (from say the 90s) but with different "players", a different family, and a family member came forward today making the very same very specific allegations, do we not think anyone would be arrested on suspicion of withholding or murder? Either the person who is alleged to have known all along and shared this information or the suspect?

Why not? If the information received is not credible or the person making the allegation is not seen as being trustworthy would be good reasons.

Another reason would be that it would upset the apple cart too much or put egg on the face of gardai and another public enquiry to establish what happened in the investigation.

ShowMeTheCash

dense wrote: »

Are you saying that legislation can't apply retrospectively? It looks like that's what it's for, to me, but I could well be wrong!

If we were to consider the very same identical circumstances and an identical hypothetical case (from say the 90s) but with different "players", a different family, and a family member came forward today making the very same very specific allegations, do we not think anyone would be arrested on suspicion of withholding or murder? Either the person who is alleged to have known all along and shared this information or the suspect?

Why not? If the information received is not credible or the person making the allegation is not seen as being trustworthy would be good reasons.

Another reason would be that it would upset the apple cart too much or put egg on the face of gardai and another public enquiry to establish what happened in the investigation.

Legislation can be applied retrospectively but the further back you go the harder it becomes.

What is your end game?
Just to make the arrest?
No one would be convicted on the suspicion of withholding unless they had some hard evidence.
Making the arrest would be easy but what is the point of the arrest if that is all they can do?

I think from the documentary the best opportunity came and went from the initial interrogation assuming they had their man.

If this guy has been protected by the "establishment" then it is no longer about the one person, it goes beyond that.

There seems to be real evidence of a cover up and people set out to pervert the course of justice.

dense

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Legislation can be applied retrospectively but the further back you go the harder it becomes.

What is your end game?
Just to make the arrest?
No one would be convicted on the suspicion of withholding unless they had some hard evidence.
Making the arrest would be easy but what is the point of the arrest if that is all they can do?

I think from the documentary the best opportunity came and went from the initial interrogation assuming they had their man.

If this guy has been protected by the "establishment" then it is no longer about the one person, it goes beyond that.

There seems to be real evidence of a cover up and people set out to pervert the course of justice.

The end game must be an arrest.
The start would be by investigating.

If an arrest was made now wouldn't it be tricky to explain how it took so long to be made?
How would the 40 year span of the open case be defended?

Either the story that Marys sister claims to have been given to her by her mother is shown by the garda to have been properly investigated and rubbished and flatly rejected and she has either deliberately or accidentally misled them, or the story has some credence.

How can the Gardai ascertain any of the above without now first officially questioning (again?) any of the individuals involved?

Creol1

dense wrote: »

If an arrest was made now wouldn't it be tricky to explain how it took so long to be made?
How would the 40 year span of the open case be defended?

It doesn't seem to have worried the Guards when they arrested this man on suspicion of the involvement in Mary Boyle's disappearance 37 years after the fact: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/missing-mary-is-a-mystery-to-me-says-paedophile-30982826.html. If they can make an arrest after 37 years, they can make an arrest after 40 years.

Muahahaha

oranbhoy I hope you are keeping well. Can I ask where do you see the campaign at this point? It really frustrates me that there was a lot of attention on this case including the protest at Ballyshannon Garda station but now things have died down again and it seems like being back to square one. What ever happened the Garda Cold Case review, has it been completed or do we know when it might be?

tayto lover

If the answer lies inside the family then why doesn't one of them have the balls to come out with the story, even at this late stage?

Does anyone know who the person being questioned was when the mysterious phone call was allegedly made to the garda station and if that person has been interviewed since or is still alive?

dense

Creol1 wrote: »

It doesn't seem to have worried the Guards when they arrested this man on suspicion of the involvement in Mary Boyle's disappearance 37 years after the fact: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/missing-mary-is-a-mystery-to-me-says-paedophile-30982826.html. If they can make an arrest after 37 years, they can make an arrest after 40 years.

Yes but that arrest was a managed PR exercise.

As we've seen it's easy enough to arrest the wrong person.
More difficult to do the right thing.

dense

tayto lover wrote: »

If the answer lies inside the family then why doesn't one of them have the balls to come out with the story, even at this late stage?

No balls?

Creol1

Muahahaha wrote: »

What ever happened the Garda Cold Case review, has it been completed or do we know when it might be?

Good question. The Mary Boyle case is curiously absent from the list of cases on the website of the Garda Serious Crime Review (i.e., Cold Case Review): http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=4227&Lang=1.

tayto lover wrote: »

If the answer lies inside the family then why doesn't one of them have the balls to come out with the story, even at this late stage?

Does anyone know who the person being questioned was when the mysterious phone call was allegedly made to the garda station and if that person has been interviewed since or is still alive?

The Person of Interest is still alive and still lives in Donegal, but people in this thread and elsewhere are careful to avoid naming the POI explicitly in case the matter ever goes to trial. I'd suggest watching Gemma O'Doherty's YouTube documentary if you haven't done so already.

oranbhoy67

Muahahaha wrote: »

oranbhoy I hope you are keeping well. Can I ask where do you see the campaign at this point? It really frustrates me that there was a lot of attention on this case including the protest at Ballyshannon Garda station but now things have died down again and it seems like being back to square one. What ever happened the Garda Cold Case review, has it been completed or do we know when it might be?

I met with an investigator with the cold case review team last year, and gave him all I know, including video and audio of me speaking to who I think Killed Mary, he said the review was near completion... since then nothing.
I asked him what I could do to help with their work thru my Facebook Page (Justice For Mary Boyle), he said to put up their number for people to phone with any info.. I have been ringing that number for the last few weeks now and no one ever answers, I leave voicemails asking them to ring back, they havent done so , god forbid I had a real hot tip to give them.

I got the impression from the Cold case officer that his mind was made up already on what happened and it conflicted with what I believe.

As for the momentum of the Campaign, I think Gemma gave it a brilliant kickstart with her documentary, and then proceeded to tear apart anyone who she saw as taking some limelight behind the scenes of the campaign, including myself, the lady who organised the March and others, we were all publicly smeared and it created a rift and ill feeling that will be hard to bridge though I have tried.

I think at this stage our only hope is a deathbed confession, which even if it was to happen I don't think would get out that room as it would incriminate the suspect's wife and sister.

All rather Bleak and I wish I could be more positive about it.

Muahahaha

thanks for the update oranbhoy. Its sad to see how things have turned out when it looked like only a matter of time last year. Do keep ringing up the Cold Case team or email/write to them till you get a response, at least that way you have a paper trail.

dense

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I met with an investigator with the cold case review team last year, and gave him all I know, including video and audio of me speaking to who I think Killed Mary, he said the review was near completion... since then nothing.
I asked him what I could do to help with their work thru my Facebook Page (Justice For Mary Boyle), he said to put up their number for people to phone with any info.. I have been ringing that number for the last few weeks now and no one ever answers, I leave voicemails asking them to ring back, they havent done so , god forbid I had a real hot tip to give them.

I got the impression from the Cold case officer that his mind was made up already on what happened and it conflicted with what I believe.

As for the momentum of the Campaign, I think Gemma gave it a brilliant kickstart with her documentary, and then proceeded to tear apart anyone who she saw as taking some limelight behind the scenes of the campaign, including myself, the lady who organised the March and others, we were all publicly smeared and it created a rift and ill feeling that will be hard to bridge though I have tried.

I think at this stage our only hope is a deathbed confession, which even if it was to happen I don't think would get out that room as it would incriminate the suspect's wife and sister.

All rather Bleak and I wish I could be more positive about it.

So basically the Cold Case Review is a sham, hasn't brought anyone in for questioning and isn't returning calls.

The local coroner is complicit in the non investigative process.

Begs the question, why?

To protect someone or protect poor practice?

Dtp1979

Is there nobody to call to complain about this?

Creol1

dense wrote: »

So basically the Cold Case Review is a sham, hasn't brought anyone in for questioning and isn't returning calls.

The local coroner is complicit in the non investigative process.

Begs the question, why?

To protect someone or protect poor practice?

Poor practice, really. The POI is a person of no consequence for the establishment at this stage.

I also don't think it helps that it has become so politicised with the protests outside Fianna Fáil HQ and Gemma O'Doherty's constant use of the case to attack the Gardaí and FF.

In my opinion, it would be better to focus on the questions Mary Boyle's family have to answer, particularly why Mary's mother is opposed to an inquest into her own daughter's (almost certain) death, especially as the reason she cites -- she can't accept that Mary is dead -- contradicts previous comments she made before the call for an inquest.

Probably the best hope for progress would be if there is a new Garda Commissioner who is a complete outsider and genuinely committed to getting to the bottom of this and other cases, but that's a big if.

dense

Seems odd but the only avenue worth taking now is to remind Sinn Fein of it's apparent interest in the case to see if the issue can be raised in the Dail again.

The "establishment" parties have clearly no interest in the case.
Not sure if Sinn Fein has any real interest in it either.

Sinn Fein can now be given an opportunity to prove that it is indeed truly interested in pursuing this case, rather than using it as a photo opportunity.

Of course it is conceivable that Sinn Fein has no real interest in the case, and that Pearse Doherty only got into the photo below after feeling pressurised to do so.

I also seem to recall the party's deputy leader Mary Lou also getting in on the act and hassling the-then Taoiseach about it, but haven't heard her following anything up.

She possibly got caught up in the media frenzy at the time and just forgot about Mary Boyle.



Sinn Fein, Pearse and Mary Lou, now is your time to shine; prove that you haven't forgotten about the Mary Boyle case.

It's time for some answers.

julyjane

tayto lover wrote: »

If the answer lies inside the family then why doesn't one of them have the balls to come out with the story, even at this late stage?

Libel/slander laws etc. and the possibility that

1. Going to the media could hinder any possible future trial, unlikely as it is now that there will ever be one.
2. Going to the guards (which they may have already done) wouldn't provide enough evidence to bring a trial.

I am not well up on legalities but I think I heard before that you cannot libel the dead so maybe when the perpetrator dies it will be back in the media.

Muahahaha

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Is there nobody to call to complain about this?

Your TD. Everyone reading this thread should be contacting their the TDs in their area. The Gardai seem to be on a solo run with this case and not interviewing a person who is the primary suspect and is said to have admitted as much to other people. Only pressure from above the Gardai will make something happen in this case so I would urge people reading to email/write or ring their TDs.

oranbhoy67

dense wrote: »

Seems odd but the only avenue worth taking now is to remind Sinn Fein of it's apparent interest in the case to see if the issue can be raised in the Dail again.

The "establishment" parties have clearly no interest in the case.
Not sure if Sinn Fein has any real interest in it either.

Sinn Fein can now be given an opportunity to prove that it is indeed truly interested in pursuing this case, rather than using it as a photo opportunity.

Of course it is conceivable that Sinn Fein has no real interest in the case, and that Pearse Doherty only got into the photo below after feeling pressurised to do so.

I also seem to recall the party's deputy leader Mary Lou also getting in on the act and hassling the-then Taoiseach about it, but haven't heard her following anything up.

She possibly got caught up in the media frenzy at the time and just forgot about Mary Boyle.



Sinn Fein, Pearse and Mary Lou, now is your time to shine; prove that you haven't forgotten about the Mary Boyle case.

It's time for some answers.

Sinn Fein have really been great with the case, but everything they put forward to the dail is put down immediately by the big 2 FF & FG

dense

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have really been great with the case, but everything they put forward to the dail is put down immediately by the big 2 FF & FG

How great exactly? Fair enough if it's being done behind the scenes, but it looks as if nothing is being done about it by anyone in politics.

When was the last time Sinn Fein raised it in the Dail?

Has Pearse Doherty written to the Superintendent at the station you're dealing with asking for an update of state of the review?

Has he written to the coroner to ask for the coroner's reasons for reportedly refusing to hold an inquest?

Has he written to GSOC to enquire about the reported complaints that were made to them and what was their response?

Did he write to the last Garda Commissioner about the case and what was the response?

Any time I've dealt with a TD I've received written replies to them from those they've interacted with on my behalf.

The written replies may not be what you want in the sense that they might not even answer your questions but at least you know another party has been contacted on your behalf by the TD.

julyjane

Interesting post on Gemma O'Dohertys Facebook page today. She attempted to interview a person of interest and his wife and a number of gardai turned up very quickly.

dense

julyjane wrote: »

Interesting post on Gemma O'Dohertys Facebook page today. She attempted to interview a person of interest and his wife and a number of gardai turned up very quickly.

That's just one side of the story.
She may have been camped on their doorstep for a week for all we know.

Still, you gotta love the rapid Garda response.
As she said, it really is in complete contrast to the 40 year sham investigation itself.

qhe0i9zvfgdou8

Gemma O'Doherty has stated the following,
'This evening, I will release new information about the Mary Boyle case and the order given to the gardai by Fianna Fail’s longest ‘serving’ politician Sean McEniff'

Creol1

Yes, it's up on her Twitter account now. The promised revelation didn't amount to much. Sgt Collins (rtd) restated that Seán McEniff had called Ballyshannon Garda station, although this time there is a bit more detail.

According to Gemma O'Doherty, Sgt Collins was the lead investigator. If he was, are we to take it he heeded the call and held off interviewing certain people? If so, it doesn't reflect well on him because while politicians shouldn't make calls like that, equally Gardaí shouldn't be obeying them if they do. If, on the other hand, the alleged call didn't make any difference, why are we hearing so much about it?

Anyway, today I sent off a letter to a TD in my constituency. I just kept it fairly brief, stressed that there were unanswered questions and that her sister is calling for an inquest, and asked the TD to use his position to add to such calls so that there can hopefully be closure.

Joe Duffy.

So is the conspiracy here that the suspect is been protected because he has dirt on people higher up who also enjoy sexually abusing children ?

razor8

Gemma has written an article now

razor8

Gemma has written an article now