Irish Rail Wages

davidlacey

The front of todays sunday business post leads with Irish rail staff wages have been frozen but increments are still being paid with no reduction in pay over the austerity era. Also with RPA wages averaging 76,507 per year with no major rail projects in the pipeline...another case of irish rail and RPA getting away with murder?

LXFlyer

Given most of the RPA staff will be transport professionals (as in engineers), that sort of salary isn't really that surprising.

You are not going to get the right staff if you don't pay the right salaries.

You seem to be forgetting that LUAS BXD is in full swing.

Hilly Bill

davidlacey wrote: »

The front of todays sunday business post leads with Irish rail staff wages have been frozen but increments are still being paid with no reduction in pay over the austerity era. Also with RPA wages averaging 76,507 per year with no major rail projects in the pipeline...another case of irish rail and RPA getting away with murder?

No reduction in pay? Whoever wrote that didnt do his homework.

Rightwing

davidlacey wrote: »

The front of todays sunday business post leads with Irish rail staff wages have been frozen but increments are still being paid with no reduction in pay over the austerity era. Also with RPA wages averaging 76,507 per year with no major rail projects in the pipeline...another case of irish rail and RPA getting away with murder?

What outrageous salaries.

Captain Chaos

Rightwing wrote: »

What outrageous salaries.

Take off PAYE, PRSI and USC. A good chunk of that is taxed around 60% and the rest at 30%. Take home pay would be almost half that gross. See how much goes back to the government and paying the social welfare bill.

Rightwing

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Take off PAYE, PRSI and USC. A good chunk of that is taxed around 60% and the rest at 30%. Take home pay would be almost half that gross. See how much goes back to the government and paying the social welfare bill.

Isn't that the big problem in the country. Not ideal trying to be an employer I'd imagine.

goingnowhere

Don't forget the wages shown in the accounts include all employer costs, so included is the PRSI at 8.5%, so its the total cost to employ someone not the pay to the employee, so that brings it back to 70,000 or so.

For the RPA where the vast majority of staff are engineers, the pay level would align with expectations, of course nearly all would be paying top rate on all taxes

RPA's day to day operations (Luas) are on paper profitable

shamwari

These populist stories really make my blood boil. In this day and age, it's almost a bloody sin to earn a wage, let alone not have taken a pay cut.

No public sector body are paying any pay increases outside of increments where due. This is the case in Irish Rail and all of the public sector bodies mentioned in that article. And for that matter is the case in the mainstream civil service, local authorities, health boards, other government bodies, and....wait for it.... the banks.

Practically all of the staff in the aforementioned organisations have already taken pay cuts, been walloped with pension levies and are working longer hours because staff numbers have been cut and those who leave are not being replaced. Everybody moans about austerity and how hard it is make ends meet, yet it seems to be the fashionable thing to call for or infer that every public sector employee to have their pay arbitrarily cut. And the media are by far the biggest culprits for not only fostering this mindset, but also cheering on the doom incessantly. I really do wonder what scale of salary reductions have been taken by the hacks who pen articles like that?

And to nail the final lie in the SBP article, with the notable exception of the CIE group, every single organisation mentioned in that article do not get one cent in subvention or subsidy from the government. They meet their payroll costs solely from the proceeds of their commercial activities. The tax payer does not pay anybody's wages therein, and by extension, any cuts in the payroll will actually cost the exchequer revenue (i.e. reduction in PAYE & PRSI) and still save the average PAYE tax payer nothing.

murphaph

shamwari wrote: »

No public sector body are paying any pay increases outside of increments where due.

To be quite frank, increments are pay increases to anybody who works in the private sector.

shamwari

murphaph wrote: »

To be quite frank, increments are pay increases to anybody who works in the private sector.

Have you a difficulty with someone getting an increment?

Cookie_Monster

shamwari wrote: »

Have you a difficulty with someone getting an increment?

Yes. Pay rises simply because you are there a year, or 2 or 5 are wrong. If they are performance based then that is fine but the notion of increasing someone wages simply because they've been there for a certain period of time is stupid.

It's not restricted to the PS but is certainly prevalent in it and the concept needs to be removed. If people want pay rises and increments they should have to prove with their records that they deserve them.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yes. Pay rises simply because you are there a year, or 2 or 5 are wrong. If they are performance based then that is fine but the notion of increasing someone wages simply because they've been there for a certain period of time is stupid.

It's not restricted to the PS but is certainly prevalent in it and the concept needs to be removed. If people want pay rises and increments they should have to prove with their records that they deserve them.

Public Service and most Semi State staff are subject to meeting specified work targets, acceptable levels of sick leave and disclipline before they may be granted increments. They are not awarded automatically and haven't been for years.

shamwari

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yes. Pay rises simply because you are there a year, or 2 or 5 are wrong. If they are performance based then that is fine but the notion of increasing someone wages simply because they've been there for a certain period of time is stupid.

It's not restricted to the PS but is certainly prevalent in it and the concept needs to be removed. If people want pay rises and increments they should have to prove with their records that they deserve them.

As Losty has said, there is no automatic entitlement to an increment. At a minimum, it is based on an employee fulfilling their role in a satisfactory manner.

Latterly the emphasis has shifted far more towards performanace-based increases than previously and full performance-based pay progression was accepted (AFAIK) in the Croke Park agreement. This should have be implemetned under benchmarking and that fact that it didn't is unacceptable. I'm a big fan of performance-based pay where it is implemented properly because it rewards those who work and penalises those who don't.

Also, and under Croke Park agreement which yielded a 10% pay cut across the board, increments were specifically not touched and this is why increments are still being paid where due.

Sligo Quay

shamwari wrote: »

Also, and under Croke Park agreement which yielded a 10% pay cut across the board, increments were specifically not touched and this is why increments are still being paid where due.

You have your facts, the newpapars don't, newpapars never refuse ink, never believe all you read in newpapars.
Just off topic, there are workers sleeping on impounded ships and are not paid, but the newpapars won't bring that up, shipping workers living charity, I won't open a can of worms.

shamwari

Sligo Quay wrote: »

You have your facts, the newpapars don't, newpapars never refuse ink, never believe all you read in newpapars.
Just off topic, there are workers sleeping on impounded ships and are not paid, but the newpapars won't bring that up, shipping workers living charity, I won't open a can of worms.

And if you know Ken Fleming, you'll also know what a great job he does too.

I agree too about the newspapers. They are singularly driving all of the austerity doom and gloom and undermining the positive sentiment we need to get people spending and get this country off it's knees. And the sooner folk actually realise this instead of parroting the print-media-mantra, the better. They have made it a capital offence to get a pay increase. FFS, if there were a few more pay increases across the board, we might get spending going.....

Losty Dublin

Sligo Quay wrote: »

You have your facts, the newpapars don't, newpapars never refuse ink, never believe all you read in newpapars.
Just off topic, there are workers sleeping on impounded ships and are not paid, but the newpapars won't bring that up, shipping workers living charity, I won't open a can of worms.

When you mention ships, some time ago I read an article about the work done by the Mission to Seamen in Dublin. Unreal the poverty they see and deal with on a daily basis, and it from men working for their crust. The press would do worse than to raise their profiles a little, RTE being one noble exception with their excellent SeaScapes.

murphaph

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Public Service and most Semi State staff are subject to meeting specified work targets, acceptable levels of sick leave and disclipline before they may be granted increments. They are not awarded automatically and haven't been for years.

Don't make me laugh Losty. The lunatics are running the asylum because there's ultimately no fear of failure as the state (taxpayer) is always there to pick up the tab for mistakes and inefficiencies. The figure for the Civil Service in (IIRC 2011) was published in a Times article last year. Only a tiny fraction of the entire service received a grade that resulted in them being ineligible for an increment. I believe the figure was 0.18% or less than 2 employees per 1000 were deemed not to have done enough to be eligible for their increment.

Having worked long enough in the private sector I know that outside of a few unionised places that these figures are the stuff of fantasy. In large corporates that I have worked in the figure would be 10% at least being ineligible for a pay rise and that pay rise would be totally dependent on the company at large performing well financially.

Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into it here in this forum, so that's all I'll say.

davidlacey

Good to see peoples views on this as I thought this was just a story to fill a front page which I notice regularly on an Irish Daily Mail but not as often on the SDP. I believe that rail staff deserve increments based on perfermance and perfermance alone, I could be wrong but these increments wouldnt be life changing sums of money would they? in line with inflation?

bobwilliams

davidlacey wrote: »

Good to see peoples views on this as I thought this was just a story to fill a front page which I notice regularly on an Irish Daily Mail but not as often on the SDP. I believe that rail staff deserve increments based on perfermance and perfermance alone, I could be wrong but these increments wouldnt be life changing sums of money would they? in line with inflation?

Irish rail wages are way too high.
I know at least 15 lads working on the lines doing maintenece etc,the gangers 1 of whom is a mate are taking home nearly 1k a week,they are supposed to work nights but generally are home and all by about 1am or 2 instead of 6.

They are taking the complete pish and it makes my blood boil when i look at the hours i have to work,have not had an increase in 4 years.

Losty Dublin

murphaph wrote: »

Don't make me laugh Losty. The lunatics are running the asylum because there's ultimately no fear of failure as the state (taxpayer) is always there to pick up the tab for mistakes and inefficiencies. The figure for the Civil Service in (IIRC 2011) was published in a Times article last year. Only a tiny fraction of the entire service received a grade that resulted in them being ineligible for an increment. I believe the figure was 0.18% or less than 2 employees per 1000 were deemed not to have done enough to be eligible for their increment.

Having worked long enough in the private sector I know that outside of a few unionised places that these figures are the stuff of fantasy. In large corporates that I have worked in the figure would be 10% at least being ineligible for a pay rise and that pay rise would be totally dependent on the company at large performing well financially.

Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into it here in this forum, so that's all I'll say.

What I was doing is pointing out that Public and Semi State are liable to witholding of their increment. You are welcome to disbelief this if you like as you doubtlessly seem to have better sources like some article you think you read

bobwilliams wrote:

Irish rail wages are way too high.
I know at least 15 lads working on the lines doing maintenece etc,the gangers 1 of whom is a mate are taking home nearly 1k a week,they are supposed to work nights but generally are home and all by about 1am or 2 instead of 6.

They are taking the complete pish and it makes my blood boil when i look at the hours i have to work,have not had an increase in 4 years.

Funnilyy enough, I have a friend who works for a private rail maintainance firm. He'd be well amused to hear of your ganger friends getting paid more than the Irish Rail gangers who are working alongside him, not to mention they finishing work before they generally begin their working day.

I'd say your mate works on the string pulling team

Sligo Quay

shamwari wrote: »

And if you know Ken Fleming, you'll also know what a great job he does too.
.

You are a very well informed individual, most posters here have never heard of Ken Fleming, most of the news papars, most of the time make me sea sick (excuse de pun) high paid journalist trying to make a name for themselves and making people angry with ''over the top headline grabing'' stories, still its made some posters angry here, so I surpose its works sometimes, getting angry without knowing the detail facts, is a bit daft in itself.

shamwari

murphaph wrote: »

DoThe lunatics are running the asylum because there's ultimately no fear of failure as the state (taxpayer) is always there to pick up the tab for mistakes and inefficiencies. The figure for the Civil Service in (IIRC 2011) was published in a Times article last year. Only a tiny fraction of the entire service received a grade that resulted in them being ineligible for an increment. I believe the figure was 0.18% or less than 2 employees per 1000 were deemed not to have done enough to be eligible for their increment.

Just one quick point that I touched on ealier. If as you say the "grade" underperformed by the magnitude you suggest and yet they still received an incrememnt, then who's to blame? A failure on that scale could not be defended as both mangement and staff are responsible for that situation obtaining in the first place But still, if staff got paid that increment then management has a case to answer for sanctioning it. Can you post a link to that IT article? I'd certainly like to see it

davidlacey wrote: »

Good to see peoples views on this as I thought this was just a story to fill a front page which I notice regularly on an Irish Daily Mail but not as often on the SDP. I believe that rail staff deserve increments based on perfermance and perfermance alone, I could be wrong but these increments wouldnt be life changing sums of money would they? in line with inflation?

I don't know the IE payscales, but in most of the public service an increment wouldn't amount to a lot after tax. Perhaps maybe €20 per week max after tax to someone in a lower grade.

bobwilliams wrote: »

They are taking the complete pish and it makes my blood boil when i look at the hours i have to work,have not had an increase in 4 years.

I feel your pain. My hours are up and wages cut. No pay increase for me in 6 years...but at the same time, if someone can get one, well and good provided they are earning it on merit. However I won't subscribe to the peddled nonsense that the next guy must suffer pain just because I am too.

Hilly Bill

bobwilliams wrote: »

Irish rail wages are way too high.
I know at least 15 lads working on the lines doing maintenece etc,the gangers 1 of whom is a mate are taking home nearly 1k a week,they are supposed to work nights but generally are home and all by about 1am or 2 instead of 6.

They are taking the complete pish and it makes my blood boil when i look at the hours i have to work,have not had an increase in 4 years.

Thats not true. I also know lads that work in P way and they would love to be able to take home a grand a week but they dont.
Home at 1 or 2? Doubt it very much.

just because you havent an increase in 4 years, why do you begrudge anyone else taking home a few quid more than you?
What if they are home at 1 or 2, why should it make your blood boil? The hours you work and the pay you earn is not their fault so why get annoyed at them?

Sligo Quay

bobwilliams wrote: »

Irish rail wages are way too high.

So is the cost of living, Irish wages high, I wonder where the example is coming from.
We have the highest paid Goverment Ministers in the EU, the Prime Minister (An Taoiseach) is on bigger wages than the USA President, Iv posted about it here many times on boards. my blood boils as well bobwilliams at the sight of the fatcats with their snouts firmly in the trough, big fat expense accounts just for turning up for house sittings, don't mention Ming the bogman from Roscommon who claimed expenses when he was on a foreign junket or that other gob****e from Wexford with the pink shirt.
Your blood should boil, but direct your anger in the right direction to thoses who should be leading by example. Fatcats, like pigs, have their snouts firmly still in the trough, and until that changes, nothing will change.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Public Service and most Semi State staff are subject to meeting specified work targets, acceptable levels of sick leave and disclipline before they may be granted increments. They are not awarded automatically and haven't been for years.

The items you list are bare minimum to keep a job, never mind increments.

GBOA

Interesting thread.

Having worked in both public and private sectors (mostly private) I've found the transition to public sector frustrating and mind boggling. Of course I can only speak for the place I work in but it seems like a familiar story across other branches of the sector locally. My experience is in no way related to wages elsewhere but I thought it may be interesting to explain how the two sectors differ.

When it comes to performance management, this is a joke and merely a box ticking exercise. When I marked a member of staff unsatisfactory for his review (and thus denying him his yearly increment) I thought I was going to end up having an official grievance taken against me. Fortunately, I'd documented his incompetence throughout the year and taken steps to help him improve, with no success. The problem was his previous bosses had always marked him satisfactory despite him clearly never having been such.

The other main problem is the belief among the majority of staff that they are all 'flat out' and working their little socks off. That being the case, I'd say very few would last a month in the private sector. This is exarcebated by an HR department that is influenced more by the union, than by staffing issues which in turn means staff are pretty much free to do as they please, knowing that the chance of disciplinary action is minimal (one member of staff recently assaulted another and no action was taken despite police involvement).

Everybody works in their little 'compartment' and is unaware of what happens beyond that, meaning much work is duplicated but when this and other inefficiencies are pointed out, the answer is usually "it's always been done like this". Obviously that must make it the best way...

In a building of 400, I truly believe that if 200 private sector employees were hired instead, the place would still be able to run, such is the poor work ethic here.

Maybe this doesn't relate to Irish Rail wages much and I will again reiterate that this is my only experience of the public secotr.

Grandeeod

Sligo Quay wrote: »

So is the cost of living, Irish wages high, I wonder where the example is coming from.
We have the highest paid Goverment Ministers in the EU, the Prime Minister (An Taoiseach) is on bigger wages than the USA President, Iv posted about it here many times on boards. my blood boils as well bobwilliams at the sight of the fatcats with their snouts firmly in the trough, big fat expense accounts just for turning up for house sittings, don't mention Ming the bogman from Roscommon who claimed expenses when he was on a foreign junket or that other gob****e from Wexford with the pink shirt.
Your blood should boil, but direct your anger in the right direction to thoses who should be leading by example. Fatcats, like pigs, have their snouts firmly still in the trough, and until that changes, nothing will change.

So what you are saying is, if the Government can milk it, then so can the semi states. That makes sense alright. The shareholders and workers together! The same old ****e thats been going on for years.

I know lots of semi state workers in their 40s. They are doing very well. I know a few in CIE or more correctly in Irish Rail and they can do things I can't do. All are comfortable and enjoying it. I don't begrudge it, but they'd be the first to admit that they are lucky. Some of them have lived above their means and some haven't, but they are generally well sheltered from the recession.

shamwari

GBOA wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Having worked in both public and private sectors (mostly private) I've found the transition to public sector frustrating and mind boggling. Of course I can only speak for the place I work in but it seems like a familiar story across other branches of the sector locally. My experience is in no way related to wages elsewhere but I thought it may be interesting to explain how the two sectors differ.

When it comes to performance management, this is a joke and merely a box ticking exercise. When I marked a member of staff unsatisfactory for his review (and thus denying him his yearly increment) I thought I was going to end up having an official grievance taken against me. Fortunately, I'd documented his incompetence throughout the year and taken steps to help him improve, with no success. The problem was his previous bosses had always marked him satisfactory despite him clearly never having been such.

The other main problem is the belief among the majority of staff that they are all 'flat out' and working their little socks off. That being the case, I'd say very few would last a month in the private sector. This is exarcebated by an HR department that is influenced more by the union, than by staffing issues which in turn means staff are pretty much free to do as they please, knowing that the chance of disciplinary action is minimal (one member of staff recently assaulted another and no action was taken despite police involvement).

Everybody works in their little 'compartment' and is unaware of what happens beyond that, meaning much work is duplicated but when this and other inefficiencies are pointed out, the answer is usually "it's always been done like this". Obviously that must make it the best way...

In a building of 400, I truly believe that if 200 private sector employees were hired instead, the place would still be able to run, such is the poor work ethic here.

Maybe this doesn't relate to Irish Rail wages much and I will again reiterate that this is my only experience of the public secotr.

Good post.

Like you I've worked both public and private sector, and on some occasions in a self employed capacity. The difference in mindset between both sectors is enormous and to be honest, it's very difficult to pick any one definitive reason for this. There are some excellent and very capable people working in the public sector and I have had the pleasure of working with quite a few. The problem though is with those who under-perform and that they are usually tolerated or given some menial nondescript task to get them offside. In the private sector they are usually warned, bollocked, and then thrown out instead. The willingness in the public sector to tolerate and accept shortcomings like this urgently needs to change.

I made reference in a previous post to performance related pay and how I support it where it is implemented properly. Proper implementation is absolutely paramount though. PM was supposed to happen in the public sector under benchmarking but never happened. Then again, benchmarking was also supposed to be self financing and it wasn't, so perhaps it is no surprise that the largest amounts awarded under benchmarking were retrenched by the subsequent pay cut & pension levy If a properly implemented performance management system were implemented in the public sector that properly rewarded performance and penalised waste and slackness then we might see a change were people will start applying themselves to the task in hand. Money is the best motivator of all....:)

shamwari

Grandeeod wrote: »

Some of them have lived above their means a some haven't, but they are generally well sheltered from the recession.

The thing about the semi states is that the tenure of employment has never been as strong as the mainstream civil service to the point where the semi's can hire and fire at will. Practically all semi states - including Irish Rail have laid of a lot of people, as well as implemented pay cuts and pension levies, and faced stiff competition from rivals. I would hardly decribe someone working in these circumstances as sheltered.

Furthermore, the semistate payroll costs are met from the proceeds of their commercial activities and not from the exchequer, so there is no charge on the tax payer like the civil service.

ted1

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Take off PAYE, PRSI and USC. A good chunk of that is taxed around 60% and the rest at 30%. Take home pay would be almost half that gross. See how much goes back to the government and paying the social welfare bill.

As does everyone else's pay. That's a stupid comment

ted1

davidlacey wrote: »

The front of todays sunday business post leads with Irish rail staff wages have been frozen but increments are still being paid with no reduction in pay over the austerity era. Also with RPA wages averaging 76,507 per year with no major rail projects in the pipeline...another case of irish rail and RPA getting away with murder?

Increments are pay increases

Grandeeod

shamwari wrote: »

The thing about the semi states is that the tenure of employment has never been as strong as the mainstream civil service to the point where the semi's can hire and fire at will. Practically all semi states - including Irish Rail have laid of a lot of people, as well as implemented pay cuts and pension levies, and faced stiff competition from rivals. I would hardly decribe someone working in these circumstances as sheltered.

Furthermore, the semistate payroll costs are met from the proceeds of their commercial activities and not from the exchequer, so there is no charge on the tax payer like the civil service.

I know a lot of fastrack staff, for example, that got the option of being laid off or not. The payoff was extremely generous. Some took it and some didn't. They didn't have to take it. Some are still within the company in a made up position standing around the automatic ticket barriers in Heuston! Some took a lumpsome and got repositioned in a different part of the country. Irish Rail certainly did not reduce its staff numbers in a private sector cost cutting fashion. Staff numbers are down, but not in a way that has benefited the company to any great degree. Irish Rail employees are definately sheltered from the recession because there is no alternative to the exact service they provide.

Hilly Bill

Sheltered from the recession????? Made up positions???? Got a lump sum and then repositioned???? Generous pay offs ????

You are either making it up or have gotten the wrong end of the stick somehow.

LivelineDipso

No major RPA project! Have they looked at the Liffey recently?

Remember, this is the paper which had "unnamed experts" claiming the Green Line was a disaster of a train, that the Western Rail Corridor ran from Navan to Sligo and generally promoted the suicidal economic policies which left the country in ruins.

As the man above stated, all newspaper journalism is trash. However, even by this stardard, the SBP is beyond the Pale. A newspaper written by, and for drunken rugger buggers who lost their virginity in the showers at a Blackrock College away game to the same scum half they still have romantic feelings for.

cbl593h

LivelineDipso wrote: »

No major RPA project! Have they looked at the Liffey recently?

Remember, this is the paper which had "unnamed experts" claiming the Green Line was a disaster of a train, that the Western Rail Corridor ran from Navan to Sligo and generally promoted the suicidal economic policies which left the country in ruins.

As the man above stated, all newspaper journalism is trash. However, even by this stardard, the SBP is beyond the Pale. A newspaper written by, and for drunken rugger buggers who lost their virginity in the showers at a Blackrock College away game to the same scum half they still have romantic feelings for.

Not wrong.

cbl593h

Grandeeod wrote: »

I know a lot of fastrack staff, for example, that got the option of being laid off or not. The payoff was extremely generous. Some took it and some didn't. They didn't have to take it. Some are still within the company in a made up position standing around the automatic ticket barriers in Heuston! Some took a lumpsome and got repositioned in a different part of the country. Irish Rail certainly did not reduce its staff numbers in a private sector cost cutting fashion. Staff numbers are down, but not in a way that has benefited the company to any great degree. Irish Rail employees are definately sheltered from the recession because there is no alternative to the exact service they provide.

Not wrong.

shamwari

Grandeeod wrote: »

I know a lot of fastrack staff, for example, that got the option of being laid off or not. The payoff was extremely generous. Some took it and some didn't. They didn't have to take it. Some are still within the company in a made up position standing around the automatic ticket barriers in Heuston! Some took a lumpsome and got repositioned in a different part of the country. Irish Rail certainly did not reduce its staff numbers in a private sector cost cutting fashion. Staff numbers are down, but not in a way that has benefited the company to any great degree. Irish Rail employees are definately sheltered from the recession because there is no alternative to the exact service they provide.

I disagree that they are sheltered. What you haven't mentioned above are the revised working arrangements and practices that were negotiated and implemented there over the last while. A DTE I know told me that many of these changes were comparable to those that were rejected by Bus Eireann staff in the up to their recent dispute. So were talking about changes in shift patterns, allowances, annual leave entitlements, reduction in sick benefit etc. What part of this constitutes being sheltered?

Sligo Quay

Grandeeod wrote: »

So what you are saying is, if the Government can milk it, then so can the semi states. That makes sense alright.

I didn't sat that, you see, your miss quoting me, my main point in my post was ''LEAD BY EXAMPLE''
But we are not getting that, I don't work in the public sector or semi state, I work for a international shipping company, but thats nether here or there.
Read my post again, then read between the lines, see where we are going, I thought it was clearer than muddy water.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sheltered from the recession????? Made up positions???? Got a lump sum and then repositioned???? Generous pay offs ????

You are either making it up or have gotten the wrong end of the stick somehow.

I didn't make it up and I didn't get the wrong end of the stick. I'm sorry but its fact from the horses mouth. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.

Grandeeod

shamwari wrote: »

What part of this constitutes being sheltered?

They still have jobs and reasonable job security.

shamwari

Grandeeod wrote: »

They still have jobs and reasonable job security.

So because others are suffering, they must suffer too?

Grandeeod

shamwari wrote: »

So because others are suffering, they must suffer too?

Never said that shamwari. I just related what I knew and said they were sheltered from the recession. I believe they are and Ive told you why. The issue of whether they should suffer like others is not up to me. But they are far from high up on the suffering league table.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

I didn't make it up and I didn't get the wrong end of the stick. I'm sorry but its fact from the horses mouth. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.

Its not fact and dont believe what a horse might tell you.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

They still have jobs and reasonable job security.

So has a lot of people of this country, are you saying that they are sheltered from the recession as well?

gutteruu

Jaysus lads! I can't get over the expectations of the Public sector/semi-state folks anymore. Your on a different planet to the rest of the country. Increments....really? 76k+ a normal wage for an engineer? Find me one...(speaking as an engineer). Your all living back in 2005!

Mind boggles.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its not fact and dont believe what a horse might tell you.

Im afraid it is fact hilly bill. Can you explain why it isnt because obviously I cant name people and the circumstances of their deal.

Cheers.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So has a lot of people of this country, are you saying that they are sheltered from the recession as well?

shamwari asked should CIE/IE employees suffer because others do. Now you are asking if others who have jobs outside of the state/semi states are sheltered as well. Please! Job security within the aforemention is fundamentally stronger than any aspect of the private sector.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Im afraid it is fact hilly bill. Can you explain why it isnt because obviously I cant name people and the circumstances of their deal.

Cheers.

Sorry Grandeeod but you have either been mislead or are just fishing. Either way you are wrong on all counts. You cant call anything fact when you dont have first hand knowledge of it but i do.
You cant name names or anything of their circumstance because you dont know in the first place.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

shamwari asked should CIE/IE employees suffer because others do. Now you are asking if others who have jobs outside of the state/semi states are sheltered as well. Please! Job security within the aforemention is fundamentally stronger than any aspect of the private sector.

Dont kid yourself, that may have been the case 20 years ago but its far from the case these days.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sorry Grandeeod but you have either been mislead or are just fishing. Either way you are wrong on all counts. You cant call anything fact when you dont have first hand knowledge of it but i do.

You have assumed I dont have first hand knowledge of it. I dont fish. I just tell it like I see it. I guess we have to agree to disagree.
My friends are liars according to you.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Dont kid yourself, that may have been the case 20 years ago but its far from the case these days.

Show me the evidence please