Would you like have the right to own a handgun in Ireland?

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

Don't want pistol anymore

I'd settle for Lever Action rifle

And a Fiddy Cal

I know too many people with licenced pistols as it is

Why is a licenced pistol a bad thing? People aren't getting shot with licenced pistols, it's the illegal ones that are the problem.

johndoe99

i'd never get a gun, even if they were free. At some stage all of us get angry, some of us strike out with fists, the consequences of that are minimal, but if you had a gun :eek:

Solair

As we all know, very liberal gun ownership laws in the have resulted in massively reduced crime and the world's lowest murder rate. Oh wait a minute.. actually, no they haven't.

Murder rate Ireland 1.2 / 100,000, UK same.
Netherlands, France, Poland 1.1
Greece 1.5
Canada 1.6
Belgium 1.7
Finland 2.2
USA 4.8
South Africa 31.8 !!!!!!????

So only 4 times more likely to be murdered in the USA than in Ireland, so I think they should be possibly looking at what we do rather than Ireland or the UK looking at liberalising gun laws to mimic the US.

Cork24

Please Share your Web Link to your Stats....

The people who have being killed by "Guns" here are due to the Drug Trade,

in America, you could be Uncle Sam walking down to buy a loaf of bread and boom you just got shot for no Reason!

Thats the Difference people just kill people in the US for no Reason, if you got killed here your either in the Drug Business or the Sex Trade
I take my chances here in Ireland then in the US

BattleCorp

Solair wrote: »

As we all know, very liberal gun ownership laws in the have resulted in massively reduced crime and the world's lowest murder rate. Oh wait a minute.. actually, no they haven't.

Murder rate Ireland 1.2 / 100,000, UK same.
Netherlands, France, Poland 1.1
Greece 1.5
Canada 1.6
Belgium 1.7
Finland 2.2
USA 4.8
South Africa 31.8 !!!!!!????

So only 4 times more likely to be murdered in the USA than in Ireland, so I think they should be possibly looking at what we do rather than Ireland or the UK looking at liberalising gun laws to mimic the US.

Switzerland have a huge number of guns per head of population and their gun homicide level in 2010 was 0.52/100,000 so less than half that of Ireland.

I'm tired saying this but guns in the right hands aren't the problem. It's the illegal guns that are the problem and all the laws in the world don't seem to bother criminals.

kingtiger

I owned a handgun when I lived in South Africa but wouldn't like it in Ireland as I saw and heard about too many incidents over the years in Cape Town,

i.e people pissed and got their gun back from the safe in the bar after a night's drinking and then had a drunken fight, you can just imagine the consequences of that

I would like to able to go to a shooting range and rent different weapons though, some craic firing an Ak-47 is full auto mode

Solair

BattleCorp wrote: »

Switzerland have a huge number of guns per head of population and their gun homicide level in 2010 was 0.52/100,000 so less than half that of Ireland.

I'm tired saying this but guns in the right hands aren't the problem. It's the illegal guns that are the problem and all the laws in the world don't seem to bother criminals.

Roughly half of the gun ownership of the US in Switzerland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Interesting stats there in the Washington Post on international comparisons :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

The interesting one for Switzerland is that while the murder rate is low, 72.2% of murders are by gun. That's even higher than the USA.

vs 7.1% in Poland, 6.6% in England/Wales, 9.6% in France, 11.5% in Australia

Ireland's actually quite off the scale on that 42% of murders here are by gun. Although, that's mostly accounted for by gangland stuff.

It's still 42% of a very low rate though so while you're still very unlikely to be murdered in Ireland or Switzerland, if you're unlucky enough to be then it's more likely to be by gun than in most of Europe.

garv123

BattleCorp wrote: »

Why is a licenced pistol a bad thing? People aren't getting shot with licenced pistols, it's the illegal ones that are the problem.

Dont think there´s ever being a single case has in the ROI there?

Never heard of someone murdered with a legally licensed rifle either.

Solair

The biggest issue in Ireland would be tackling the gangland crime issues as they did really get out of control over the last decade or so.

My issue with more handgun licenses would be that you'd have a situation where those guns could get into the wrong hands i.e. be stolen.

A lot of gun crime here is still with sawn-off shot guns and stuff like that and I'm pretty sure a large % of those were probably legally held at one stage somewhere.

If you'd handguns in homes, I'm sure they'd be a very attractive target for theft. You're not always going to be there guarding the gun.

BattleCorp

garv123 wrote: »

Dont think there´s ever being a single case has in the ROI there?

Never heard of someone murdered with a legally licensed rifle either.

Yep, you are right. There hasn't been a single case here of somebody being murdered with a legally held centrefire pistol.

gobnaitolunacy

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yep, you are right. There hasn't been a single case here of somebody being murdered with a legally held centrefire pistol.

As a matter of interest, how many legally held pistols are out there?

BattleCorp

Solair wrote: »

My issue with more handgun licenses would be that you'd have a situation where those guns could get into the wrong hands i.e. be stolen.

A lot of gun crime here is still with sawn-off shot guns and stuff like that and I'm pretty sure a large % of those were probably legally held at one stage somewhere.

If you'd handguns in homes, I'm sure they'd be a very attractive target for theft. You're not always going to be there guarding the gun.

The guns aren't just left on the kitchen table waiting to be stolen.

We have secure storage laws to prevent that happening. There are rules on the type of safe, it has to be a certain standard. Some people also have to have certain locks placed on doors, and even monitored alarms installed.

BattleCorp

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many legally held pistols are out there?

Not sure to be honest and I wouldn't be happy making a guess as I'd probably be way off the mark.

Grayson

BattleCorp wrote: »

Switzerland have a huge number of guns per head of population and their gun homicide level in 2010 was 0.52/100,000 so less than half that of Ireland.

I'm tired saying this but guns in the right hands aren't the problem. It's the illegal guns that are the problem and all the laws in the world don't seem to bother criminals.

Aren't most of the guns in switzerland owned by reservists? They're people who went through years of training etc. Not to mention psychological evaluations.

In america you can walk into a shop with a nervous twitch and a teeshirt that says "BOOM HEADSHOT" and a week later you get the gun.

I think that's the main difference.

Plus certain societies seem to handle them better. America doesn't. It's addicted to them even though it's proving to be incredibly self damaging. Switzerland does seem to be able to handle it differently. But they have better education and most adults are members of the militia at some point so they recieve extensive training.

And really, without knowing how it's going to go, I'd shy away from allowing firearms to be released into a general population. Plus there's no need. I have no problems with people owning shot guns for hunting. And even if it's only for self defense, shotguns are safer. A doublebarrelled one only has two chambers, is scary looking and intimidating. It's also easier to aim. The only benefit a handgun has is that it's smaller and can be carried around.

garv123

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many legally held pistols are out there?

Hard to put a number on it because I dont think the figure is readily available online but there are quiet a few.. More than people think.

There are 220,000 or so licensed firearms in the country between Shotguns, Rifles and handguns. Could never find a break down of these figures though.

The majority of pistols now will be .22 and restricted to a 5shot magazine. Centrefire pistols were made illegal in 2008 by an idiot, but people who had one prior to that we´re allowed keep theirs licensed.


Its hard to even hazard a guess. Someone in a target pistol club might be able to hazard a educated guess.

BattleCorp

Grayson wrote: »

Aren't most of the guns in switzerland owned by reservists? They're people who went through years of training etc. Not to mention psychological evaluations.

Yes, a lot of people in Switzerland who own guns were in the reserves at some stage. But you don't have to have been in the reserves to get a licence over there.

A lot of us target shooters over here go through years of training too. Plus when we apply for a licence, we have to supply our doctor's name so that the Gardaí can carry out background checks etc .

In america you can walk into a shop with a nervous twitch and a teeshirt that says "BOOM HEADSHOT" and a week later you get the gun.

That's their law over there. They have a right to have a gun over there. You can't compare over there to here.

Plus certain societies seem to handle them better. America doesn't. It's addicted to them even though it's proving to be incredibly self damaging. Switzerland does seem to be able to handle it differently. But they have better education and most adults are members of the militia at some point so they recieve extensive training. .

In general, the Swiss are a pretty law abiding society. As the figures show, the Swiss have way less gun crime than America.

So what I would deduce from the figures is that it isn't the guns that are the problem, it's the mentality of the people in possession of them that's the problem.

And really, without knowing how it's going to go, I'd shy away from allowing firearms to be released into a general population. Plus there's no need. I have no problems with people owning shot guns for hunting. And even if it's only for self defense, shotguns are safer. A doublebarrelled one only has two chambers, is scary looking and intimidating. It's also easier to aim. The only benefit a handgun has is that it's smalled and can be carried around.

For self defence, we don't have guns issued to the public. It isn't allowed and I've no problem with that to be honest.

Handguns are only allowed here in Ireland for target shooting. Not for hunting etc. and they can only be used on a licenced range.

BattleCorp

garv123 wrote: »

Centrefire pistols were made illegal in 2008 by an idiot, but people who had one prior to that we´re allowed keep theirs licensed.

A large number of people who had their centrefire pistol before Nov 2008 have been refused licences even though they broke no law. 168 had to go to the High Court to try and get their pistols licenced.

Plenty of people have left the sport as they can't get licences for guns that they previously had licences for.

Grayson

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yes, a lot of people in Switzerland who own guns were in the reserves at some stage. But you don't have to have been in the reserves to get a licence over there.

A lot of us target shooters over here go through years of training too. Plus when we apply for a licence, we have to supply our doctor's name so that the Gardaí can carry out background checks etc .




That's their law over there. They have a right to have a gun over there. You can't compare over there to here.





In general, the Swiss are a pretty law abiding society. As the figures show, the Swiss have way less gun crime than America.

So what I would deduce from the figures is that it isn't the guns that are the problem, it's the mentality of the people in possession of them that's the problem.




For self defense, we don't have guns issued to the public. It isn't allowed and I've no problem with that to be honest.

Handguns are only allowed here in Ireland for target shooting. Not for hunting etc. and they can only be used on a licensed range.

I realise you can't get a gun for self defense but thats as my point. If you could, I see no reason why a handgun would be necessary.

I am right in thinking that target shooting guns are very different to say a colt semi automatic? It is the difference between owning a ferrari and owning a ford mondeo. They might be similar but they are built for entirely different purposes. The price is also hugely different?

I've said in other threads that if handguns are to be legal in a country, especially for target shooting, then they should be securely held. And I believe that's best if they are centrally stored on licensed premises with a certain level of security. If that rises the price of participation, I'm ok with that. Because unlike america, where as you said people have a right to own a gun, we don't have that. Here it's a privilege granted by the state.

Although I do think that most people would interpret the US law as being something more akin to the militias in Switzerland (I mean it even mentions the word militia) rather than interpretation that is used in the law now.

garv123

Grayson wrote: »

I realise you can't get a gun for self defense but thats as my point. If you could, I see no reason why a handgun would be necessary.

I am right in thinking that target shooting guns are very different to say a colt semi automatic? It is the difference between owning a ferrari and owning a ford mondeo. They might be similar but they are built for entirely different purposes. The price is also hugely different?

I've said in other threads that if handguns are to be legal in a country, especially for target shooting, then they should be securely held. And I believe that's best if they are centrally stored on licensed premises with a certain level of security. If that rises the price of participation, I'm ok with that. Because unlike america, where as you said people have a right to own a gun, we don't have that. Here it's a privilege granted by the state.

Although I do think that most people would interpret the US law as being something more akin to the militias in Switzerland (I mean it even mentions the word militia) rather than interpretation that is used in the law now.

You can use a range of handguns for target shooting here in different disciplines or just for recreational shooting. You can use certain revolvers and "ones from the movies" for target shooting too. The very same gun you would use for defending yourself with except here it would most likely be .22 nowadays.

This centrally stored idea is not a good idea, It comes up a lot in these threads.
Look at firearms dealers that have being robbed and guns taken.. some of these have being in towns.

Ranges are in rural areas and storing all the guns in the one place would mean they could all be stolen together which would be a lot worse.
Clearly the way it is now works.. Why change it? its being pointed out that handguns here are legal for target shooting and there has never being a legally owned handgun used in a crime, so why change it?

And you´re also forgetting that not every person can make it to the range every day and serious target shooters spend hours at home dry firing and practicing their technique every day.. How could they do that it the gun was stored in a central point?

Grayson

garv123 wrote: »

You can use a range of handguns for target shooting here in different disciplines or just for recreational shooting. You can use certain revolvers and "ones from the movies" for target shooting too. The very same gun you would use for defending yourself with except here it would most likely be .22 nowadays.

This centrally stored idea is not a good idea, It comes up a lot in these threads.
Look at firearms dealers that have being robbed and guns taken.. some of these have being in towns.

Ranges are in rural areas and storing all the guns in the one place would mean they could all be stolen together which would be a lot worse.
Clearly the way it is now works.. Why change it? its being pointed out that handguns here are legal for target shooting and there has never being a legally owned handgun used in a crime, so why change it?

And you´re also forgetting that not every person can make it to the range every day and serious target shooters spend hours at home dry firing and practicing their technique every day.. How could they do that it the gun was stored in a central point?

More security then. Don't have them in rural areas. Like I said, it may well increase the price. But using guns for sport is a priviledge and as such any conditions can be placed on it.

BattleCorp

Grayson wrote: »

I realise you can't get a gun for self defense but thats as my point. If you could, I see no reason why a handgun would be necessary.

I'm a target shooter so I don't like getting into these conversations regarding self defence.

That said, I can think of a few examples where a handgun might be more advantageous over a double barrel shotgun when it comes to self defence.

If the person seeking to defend themselves was very weak, they mightn't have the capacity to lift up a heavy double barrel shotgun but might be able to use a light pistol. Imagine what the recoil from a shotgun would do to an 80 year old woman's shoulder or ribcage.

Also, what if there were 3 attackers. A double barrel only holds two cartridges.

Or operating in confined spaces. You mightn't have room to swing a double barrel.

Anyway, enough of the self defence stuff.

I am right in thinking that target shooting guns are very different to say a colt semi automatic? It is the difference between owning a ferrari and owning a ford mondeo. They might be similar but they are built for entirely different purposes. The price is also hugely different?

Well, yes and no to be honest. Specific target guns are more accurate and are usually more expensive yes. There are many different types of target guns, different makes and models, some single shot, some rapid fire etc. The gun is usually designed for the event that you are shooting in.

Any gun can be used for target shooting though, it's just that some are more accurate than others. It's more the shooters skill than the accuracy of the gun until you get to the really top level.

There are plenty of shooting matches where a "Colt Semi Automatic" would be good enough. Not in the Olympics, but club level matches, yes.

I've said in other threads that if handguns are to be legal in a country, especially for target shooting, then they should be securely held. And I believe that's best if they are centrally stored on licensed premises with a certain level of security. If that rises the price of participation, I'm ok with that.

You seem to have a grudge against licenced target shooters having their handguns at home. Why? What's the logic behind your thinking?

They aren't being used in crime or being stolen left, right, and centre.

If they are not being misused, then why the need to store them centrally?

And as you have been told before, even the Gardaí think that that is a bad idea.

BattleCorp

Grayson wrote: »

More security then. Don't have them in rural areas. Like I said, it may well increase the price. But using guns for sport is a priviledge and as such any conditions can be placed on it.

We already have lots of security. That's why they are not being stolen. I personally have BS standard safes, monitored alarms, cameras etc etc etc.

If there is no problem, why are you suggesting rules to fix a problem that isn't there?

Grayson

BattleCorp wrote: »

You seem to have a grudge against licenced target shooters having their handguns at home. Why? What's the logic behind your thinking?

They aren't being used in crime or being stolen left, right, and centre.

If they are not being misused, then why the need to store them centrally?

And as you have been told before, even the Gardaí think that that is a bad idea.

Grudge implies it's a personal dislike. That I seem to dislike people based on some hobby. I don't think I've ever insinuated that. My thoughts are based on a perfectly rational thought process. So please don't make try to insinuate anything regarding my motives.

I simply think that holding a lot of guns in a very secure location is better than scattering them around the country. And really, I don't care what the gardai think. That's an appeal to authority and if you have to resort to that, then your argument is weak. Focus on the benefits and negatives of such an action, not on what the gardai said.

The simple fact is that it is possible to create a secure location to store guns. And that place would be safer. And yes, it would probably make the sport more expensive. But it's not the governments job to make target shooting or any other sport cheaper.

Grayson

BattleCorp wrote: »

We already have lots of security. That's why they are not being stolen. I personally have BS standard safes, monitored alarms, cameras etc etc etc.

If there is no problem, why are you suggesting rules to fix a problem that isn't there?

Well, if your standards are BS...?

Witcher

Grayson wrote: »

I simply think that holding a lot of guns in a very secure location is better than scattering them around the country.

Grand, you're entitled to your opinion but it's never going to happen.

Gatling

Has anybody got the figures for crimes committed using legally held stolen firearms

hooradiation

SeanW wrote: »

How is it nonsense? There are parts of this country (Limerick, Ennis, parts of Dublin etc) where ordinary people live lives of fear because the areas, estates etc are ruled by scum. That's the reality.
.

Even if I cared about your fantasy of an oppressed people in need of saving, I am amazed that your fanfuckingtastic plan is to let the "ordinary people" get a taste of that sweet, sweet crime action by encouraging them to dispense justice revenge based on how scared they feel.

Good job, i'm sure your imagined terror soaked populace will be paragons of due process and proportional response, and not just another bunch of assholes.

BattleCorp

Grayson wrote: »

Grudge implies it's a personal dislike. That I seem to dislike people based on some hobby. I don't think I've ever insinuated that. My thoughts are based on a perfectly rational thought process. So please don't make try to insinuate anything regarding my motives.

Ok, I'll withdraw the grudge remark. I don't agree with your rational thought process though. If my sporting equipment isn't being used to commit a crime, or being misused in any way, then why do you have a problem with it being kept in my home?

I simply think that holding a lot of guns in a very secure location is better than scattering them around the country. And really, I don't care what the gardai think. That's an appeal to authority and if you have to resort to that, then your argument is weak. Focus on the benefits and negatives of such an action, not on what the gardai said.

So you think my argument is weak because I mention the Gardaí? The body in charge of the licencing of firearms, responsible for law and order in the community? As a law abiding firearms holder, I most definitely care what the Gardaí think.

The simple fact is that it is possible to create a secure location to store guns. And that place would be safer. And yes, it would probably make the sport more expensive. But it's not the governments job to make target shooting or any other sport cheaper.

And indeed, the government don't make target shooting cheap.

On your secure storage location. Do you reckon having a building in a town kitted out so that we can store our guns there is a good idea? Where the general public can see us going in, collecting our firearms and then heading back to our cars and then driving to the range.

Surely that isn't safer than me going from my own home, getting into my car with my pistol in the bag and driving to the range? Nobody knows I have the pistol.



The BS thing in the other post is BS7558. BS stands for British Standard. Which means "not a sh1te safe".

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

Has anybody got the figures for crimes committed using legally held stolen firearms

I don't have the figures you are looking for but the vast vast majority of guns stolen in this country are shotguns.

Witcher

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't have the figures you are looking for but the vast vast majority of guns stolen in this country are shotguns.

and the gangland shootings have nothing to do with firearms owners here, those pistols aren't being stolen here. Blame the government for allowing our maritime borders to be so easily breached by drugs and firearms.