"Close account" button. Success or Failure?

johnr1

So now the option to close one's account has been in place long enough to take a look at it's results, what do people think?

I was against it, on the grounds that it would eat away at the core of the site by degrees, leaving the place no different to any other anonomous message board.

It's proven to be popular at least, and that's about the only good thing I can think of to say about it.

Exactly as predicted by many, - users are now treating accounts as disposable, - 50 posts and gone, 350 posts in one week and then gone. There is no body of work to judge who you are discussing/debating/agreeing with. Its not that I'd actually check a poster's history before thanking their post, or disagreeing with them, but that over time, I used to get "a feel" for what a particular poster was expressing having over time read hundreds of their posts.

Its almost like loosing a friend each time I read a post by a username I recognise, and then notice the ominous "closed account" over their name.

I don't recognise too many usernames anymore,- they don't stay around long enough for that, and I think this leads to apathy and unwillingness to invest the time it takes to compose a detailed researched and thought-out response. Why bother? they could be a troll, a newbie without any real interest in the topic, or maybe someone you previously discussed the issue with.

I assume the posters who have closed their accounts all had good reasons, but perhaps there should have been a "one year downtime" rule inserted. How that could be policed I don't know though.

If nobody stays around for long enough to be recognisable as anything, then I'm not sure this is a place I want to spend my freetime anymore.

My opinion: MASSIVE mistake, which will erode the site to the point of pointlesness eventually.



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Ken.

johnr1 wrote: »

My opinion: MASSIVE mistake, which will erode the site to the point of pointlesness eventually.



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To be blunt your opinion means jack. My opinion and anyone else's opinion means jack also. Boards was required by law to put in a way for people to close their accounts. Came out the same time as the law saying sites have to tell you they use cookies.

Zaph

It wasn't designed to be measured as a success or a failure, it was a requirement from the Data Protection Commissioners, and as such Boards had no choice but to implement it.

Dades

Clearly it depends where you post. There's little to no turnover in forums I frequent. One or two closed accounts of note in the last 12 months, whereas before they would just have been inactive rather than closed.

Some forums are given to shorter lived relationships, it seems. I don't see the closed account option as making any difference in practice.

Steve

Agree with the OP, the system is being abused.

Can we put a clause in the site TOU that if you close your account then you can't re-reg for a minimum time period - e.g. a year..?

I had one just a few minutes ago on a forum that I mod, user wasted many peoples time and when confronted by a mod just closed the account. Pretty sure they'll be back soon with a new name and a 'clean slate'.. very frustrating.

Zaph

Steve wrote: »

Can we put a clause in the site TOU that if you close your account then you can't re-reg for a minimum time period - e.g. a year..?

Policing something like that just isn't practical, we simply don't have the manpower or hardware to devote to making sure people who closed their account haven't re-regged within a certain period. The site's too big for that sort of thing.

The Backwards Man

People close their accounts for many genuine reasons too, not just malicious ones. I don't think it would be fair on them to introduce a time restriction.

Dades

Also, if someone closes an account with a record of bans and infractions and creates a new one, depending on how the new account is used, that old record might be referenced when dealing with new infractions. It ain't a get out jail free card.

RoundyMooney

No indeed. But, unlike an instant rereg, which usually is quite obvious-a closed account with a chequered history is less straightforward.

I realise that the DP act forced this move on boards.ie, but I'm curious as to how prevalent it is elsewhere, on other Irish sites. I genuinely don't know, and the question that springs to mind was whether it was absolutely necessary, and also on foot of that, whether a time limit should be enforced when reregistering.

Tbh, in the case of a genuine account closure, of which there are many, it would be unfair to restrict that person from having second thoughts or simply a wish to start afresh for genuine reasons, and deciding to sign up again. It is also unfair to the mods and to a lesser degree the users, to have someone on the cusp of a siteban, ditch their account and simply start a new one.

Of course, that option was always there for people, in that they could simply abandon an account and open a fresh one-but there was also a rule against dupe accounts unless sanctioned, no?

It's something that merits further consideration, indeed, it should have done up to now, as it is a bit of a quandary.

Steve

Zaph wrote: »

Policing something like that just isn't practical, we simply don't have the manpower or hardware to devote to making sure people who closed their account haven't re-regged within a certain period. The site's too big for that sort of thing.

There's a lot of stuff in the TOU that isn't actively policed - yet it is there if needed as a reason to take action against a user who is rasping on the community.

I agree there are lots of reasons someone would want to close their account, and I agree that many of them are probably honest reasons, however it's the small group of abusers that are tarnishing the feature.

MugMugs

Dades wrote: »

Also, if someone closes an account with a record of bans and infractions and creates a new one, depending on how the new account is used, that old record might be referenced when dealing with new infractions. It ain't a get out jail free card.

That's presuming the MuppetCheck passes. Doesn't take a lot to work around that if you really want.

Dades

There's more tools in the toolbox than muppetcheck.

Gordon

For the record, Dades is not referring to the Admins.

johnr1

RopeDrink wrote: »

Bit overly dramatic, don't you think? Unless you're talking ritual account suicide, I cannot fathom how you belive a measly close-account button will be the death of a site of this magnitude regardless of how much time passes since the button came into existence.

Think this is being taken WAY too seriously if that's the thought that crops up in mind, moreso if it's a product of a requirement of the law.

I can't see this even grazing the surface of Boards.ie, let alone kill it or make it even remotely close to 'pointless'.

Well, no, I don't think it's overly dramatic, - if I did, I wouldn't have posted it.

You and I don't appear to post in the same forums, as I've only ever seen you here in Feedback, so perhaps in the forums that I read/post in, there is actually "ritual account suicide" as you call it.
As it happens, I can think of about 40 or so really good posters who have closed over the past year or so.
Whats "measly" about the Close Account button ?
I dont think less than 800 posts in 3 years indicates that I take this "WAAAAY too seriously" do you ?

I wasn't aware that it was a requirement of law. Pity.

If we are discussing life's events with seagulls who are here today and gone tomorrow, then we may as well be on chat roulette. This is what I mean by it making the site pointless, - the point often made about boards is that it was a discussion website rather than a message board.
Who wants to discuss anything more serious than "pringles or taytos? haha lol" and the like, with some newreg/rereg/troll/will be gone before I hit "post reply" ? Fcuk that.

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K-9

johnr1 wrote: »

Who wants to discuss anything more serious than "pringles or taytos? haha lol" and the like, with some newreg/rereg/troll/will be gone before I hit "post reply" ? Fcuk that.

.

On a subject like that it hardly matters, on more serious subjects it doesn't really matter to whom you are addressing your post, yeah, we all want to rebut a point or offer a different view, but, your point of view still stands whether you are addressing a seasoned poster or a re-reg troll.

Yeah, it's annoying you wasted a few minutes replying to a troll, but the recipient really is irrelevant. The only difference between both scenarios is you feel duped by replying to the troll, your pride takes a hit, it's irrelevant as if it was just a usual poster, you'd just get on with the discussion.

Steve

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah, it's annoying you wasted a few minutes replying to a troll

If that were the only downside then, yeah, there's no issue, it doesn't hold true in all forums though.

RoundyMooney

The thing is, you are (or were) your account when it comes to here, be that good bad or indifferent. It's not like FB, where generally you are yourself (in terms of your actual identity) or the likes of the journal.ie, where most people seem to set up a dud twitter account and go from there under the veneer of anonymity.

So, as far as habitual boardsies are concerned, closing ones account used to be A Big Deal, and not taken lightly. I don't think anyone anticipated the whole seagull phenomenon, where boards accounts are treated as disposable, not by trolls or rereggers-because that was always the case-but more surprisingly, ordinary, if somewhat fickle people who decide to start again before they've started at all.

armchair fusilier

Why does the close account function have to be irreversible? l'm guessing that a lot of re-regs are posters who closed their account and then simply changed their minds at some later date. I doubt having an option to reopen a closed account would contravene any data protection requirements.

Prof Nincom Poop Ph.D

armchair fusilier wrote: »

Why does the close account function have to be irreversible? l'm guessing that a lot of re-regs are posters who closed their account and then simply changed their minds at some later date. I doubt having an option to reopen a closed account would contravene any data protection requirements.

hassle

Rabies

The tool should be hidden away behind loads of options and in a place where its not easy find.

28064212

I'm curious, what exactly has changed to make any of the above issues different? The close Account option hasn't actually changed anything when it comes to dropping accounts (other than make it more visible to other users). There have always been posters with 50 posts, or 300 posts, who just dropped their accounts and moved to a new one. There have always been long-term posters who just stopped posting one day. Whether there is a close account button there or not makes no difference to either of those issues

Boards.ie: Danny

armchair fusilier wrote: »

Why does the close account function have to be irreversible? l'm guessing that a lot of re-regs are posters who closed their account and then simply changed their minds at some later date. I doubt having an option to reopen a closed account would contravene any data protection requirements.

Closing an account removes everything. Private messages, group messages, usergroup memberships, passwords, emails, all profile data, thread subscriptions, forum subscriptions, access masks (for forums like Soccer) etc. Without access to this data we can never confirm somebody is who they say they are if they drop an email to HQ. Then you'd have the issue of the deleted data - how do you give somebody back their access masks/forum subs/thread subs/private messages when they're gone? It's unworkable.

Dades

armchair fusilier wrote: »

I doubt having an option to reopen a closed account would contravene any data protection requirements.

That wouldn't be a closed account, it would be a suspended account.

I'm open to correction but I believe the option of closing your account is required so that your personal data (e.g. email address) is deleted from the system. In order for an account to be reactivated this wouldn't be possible.

Dav

I'm extremely disappointed that we had to implement this as the idea that a Boards.ie account is "disposable" has crept in and we were always of the opinion that it should be something to be valued. I personally think that anyone who's too afraid to stand by their online identity and who will close their account after a couple of months because they once made a tit of themselves on one forum is a coward. I'm damn proud of the fact that my personal account says "Feb '98" beside Join Date. I've said some awful tripe in the years I've been here - didn't stop the company hiring me and I would never attempt to shy away from it nor would I be too proud to admit that I was wrong or have changed my mind. It's part of being a grown up

However, we had no choice about this. It was a case of implement this functionality or find ourselves on the wrong side of the Data Protection Commissioners (who I must state for the record are a genuinely fantastic sector of the Civil Service and who have always been helpful and supportive of Boards if we've needed their help).

We also had absolutely no choice about making it a "one way" operation - we cannot reverse them for a multitude of legal and functional reasons.

So the sad reality is that it's here to stay and won't be changing in it's functionality.

The Backwards Man

Dav wrote: »

I'm extremely disappointed that we had to implement this as the idea that a Boards.ie account is "disposable" has crept in and we were always of the opinion that it should be something to be valued. I personally think that anyone who's too afraid to stand by their online identity and who will close their account after a couple of months because they once made a tit of themselves on one forum is a coward. I'm damn proud of the fact that my personal account says "Feb '98" beside Join Date. I've said some awful tripe in the years I've been here - didn't stop the company hiring me and I would never attempt to shy away from it nor would I be too proud to admit that I was wrong or have changed my mind. It's part of being a grown up

However, we had no choice about this. It was a case of implement this functionality or find ourselves on the wrong side of the Data Protection Commissioners (who I must state for the record are a genuinely fantastic sector of the Civil Service and who have always been helpful and supportive of Boards if we've needed their help).

We also had absolutely no choice about making it a "one way" operation - we cannot reverse them for a multitude of legal and functional reasons.

So the sad reality is that it's here to stay and won't be changing in it's functionality.

If labelling everyone who closes their account as troublemakers wasn't bad enough, it seems we are all cowards now as well. I've never considered myself as either, as I'm sure many others who closed their accounts haven't, I just took advantage of an option that was made available.

For the record, and not that it's anyone's business, I closed my account because I no longer wish to be associated with ever having contributed any money to the site. I'm still happy enough to use the site, and stand over everything I have said on this account or the last, but I now consider myself a 'user' whereas before I was a 'member'.

Whether the bosses have another derogatory box they they wish to categorise someone like me in or not, I'm not particularly bothered.

Dav

The Backwards Man wrote: »

For the record, and not that it's anyone's business, I closed my account because I no longer wish to be associated with ever having contributed any money to the site. I'm still happy enough to use the site, and stand over everything I have said on this account or the last, but I now consider myself a 'user' whereas before I was a 'member'.

That honestly makes no sense to me - you don't want people to know that you once helped up pay some bills, but you still want to avail of the service we offer?

Dades

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If labelling everyone who closes their account as troublemakers wasn't bad enough, it seems we are all cowards now as well.

Did you close your account because you "made a tit of [yourself] on one forum"? Because that's the scenario described to qualify in Dav's view as a coward.

The biggest problem with this system is posters trolling forums then closing their accounts before they are banned, and then popping up under another name.

There are certainly loopholes that need closing.

28064212

rarnes1 wrote: »

The biggest problem with this system is posters trolling forums then closing their accounts before they are banned, and then popping up under another name.

There are certainly loopholes that need closing.

With the Close Account button:

1. User trolls
2. Clicks Close Account button
3. Opens new account
4. Trolls again

Without the Close Account button:

1. User trolls
2. Stops posting under that account
3. Opens new account
4. Trolls again

What's the difference? The close account button doesn't affect this behaviour even remotely.

The Backwards Man

Dav wrote: »

That honestly makes no sense to me - you don't want people to know that you once helped up pay some bills, but you still want to avail of the service we offer?

In a nutshell, I am happy enough to use the service, yes.Call it a protest or a statement or a petty strop or whatever you want.

Anyway I didn't post to soapbox my opinions about the site, just to highlight that there are other reasons why people may choose to close their account, and with the 'Close Account' feature being so readily available, of course there are going to be many who will take advantage of it.

Dades

rarnes1 wrote: »

The biggest problem with this system is posters trolling forums then closing their accounts before they are banned, and then popping up under another name.

Just use the report function as you would if it was a re-reg. Opening a new account after closing one doesn't absolve you of your past sins, and if there's a record of infractions these may still be taken into account.

LuckyLloyd

28064212 wrote: »

With the Close Account button:

1. User trolls
2. Clicks Close Account button
3. Opens new account
4. Trolls again

Without the Close Account button:

1. User trolls
2. Stops posting under that account
3. Opens new account
4. Trolls again

What's the difference? The close account button doesn't affect this behaviour even remotely.

One was bannable (certainly frowned upon), one isn't.

28064212

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

One was bannable (certainly frowned upon), one isn't.

Both are bannable, and lots of users have been banned for both

anncoates

I don't think it's such a big deal if people want to close an account and come back.

It's a little unfair to say it's always a weak thing to do as they can be doing it for any number of valid reasons.

Obviously, it's a bit much if people are constantly closing relatively new accounts or doing so because their old account has a bad reputation.

johnr1

Dav wrote: »

I'm extremely disappointed that we had to implement this as the idea that a Boards.ie account is "disposable" has crept in and we were always of the opinion that it should be something to be valued. I personally think that anyone who's too afraid to stand by their online identity and who will close their account after a couple of months because they once made a tit of themselves on one forum is a coward. I'm damn proud of the fact that my personal account says "Feb '98" beside Join Date. I've said some awful tripe in the years I've been here - didn't stop the company hiring me and I would never attempt to shy away from it nor would I be too proud to admit that I was wrong or have changed my mind. It's part of being a grown up

If I could thank you twice for this post then I would. This is my first and last boards account, and just like you, I posted some stupid sh1t on occasion. I also have a few infractions and a one month site ban (personal abuse by PM,- well warranted) behind me.

I think closing accounts is ruining what was/is a great site.

Sulla Felix

Dades wrote: »

Just use the report function as you would if it was a re-reg. Opening a new account after closing one doesn't absolve you of your past sins, and if there's a record of infractions these may still be taken into account.

No idea about the legals ins and outs, but how does that work. The old infractions were linked to an old account, and you're now associating them with a new one, whether by ip or whatever. Not being cheeky, but surely that's keeping information selectively when the whole point of the button is to stop keeping information?:o

Insect Overlord

You can't delete stuff remembered about old posters from mods' brains...

Karl Stein

johnr1 wrote: »

If I could thank you twice for this post then I would. This is my first and last boards account, and just like you, I posted some stupid sh1t on occasion. I also have a few infractions and a one month site ban (personal abuse by PM,- well warranted) behind me.

I think closing accounts is ruining what was/is a great site.

I recently closed my account. I did and said some stupid things on it and had my fair share of infractions and bans but trying to distance myself from them was not my motivation for closing my account. I'm pretty sure the mods would see through that fairly sharpish anyway and act accordingly.

It was my goddamned post count, and having it thrown in my face every so often, that was bugging me and there's no option to hide it. If there had been an option to hide it I would not have closed my account. So there are reasons people will close an account that aren't sneaky. I'd hazard a guess that others have closed and reopened their accounts for this very same reason.

Pawwed Rig

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

It was my goddamned post count, and having it thrown in my face every so often, that was bugging me and there's no option to hide it.

Why would your post count be an issue? In what context could it be thrown in your face? Genuine question

seamus

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why would your post count be an issue? In what context could it be thrown in your face? Genuine question

I think he means that he's self-conscious about it, the fact that it's there is a constant reminder of how much of his time he has wasted so far and how much more he could have to show for his life if he'd not been farting about on boards.

I just don't let it get to me

MugMugs

It wasn't even than high tbh.

Pawwed Rig

seamus wrote: »

I think he means that he's self-conscious about it, the fact that it's there is a constant reminder of how much of his time he has wasted so far and how much more he could have to show for his life if he'd not been farting about on boards.

Oh ok. That is something that would have never crossed my mind tbh. I would have thought there are worse things you could be doing than conversing on the internet.

Seamus, 44.000 posts???? You could have done a doctorate in that time;)

Dades

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No idea about the legals ins and outs, but how does that work. The old infractions were linked to an old account, and you're now associating them with a new one, whether by ip or whatever. Not being cheeky, but surely that's keeping information selectively when the whole point of the button is to stop keeping information?:o

The point of the button is to have on record personal information (I believe). But of course your entire Boards history remains there for all to see. Infraction records and all.

To clarify, if someone closed an account and subsequently opens another, then usually there's no issue. It's only flagged when that user had a record and continues to cause trouble under a new account, rather than turn over a new leaf as it were.

seamus

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No idea about the legals ins and outs, but how does that work. The old infractions were linked to an old account, and you're now associating them with a new one, whether by ip or whatever. Not being cheeky, but surely that's keeping information selectively when the whole point of the button is to stop keeping information?:o

Afaik, an IP address is considered personal information only where it is recorded against an individual for the purposes of identifying them.

When the account is closed, the identifying information is scrambled. So while the IP address is still recorded against the posts, without the other information on the account that IP address alone cannot be used to identify an individual (especially since IP addresses are usually shared) and no longer constitutes "personal" information i.e. information about an individual. It now becomes information about a post.

That's to the best of my knowledge anyway. The thing is that data protection only goes as far as information which is actually recorded. Information which resides in the mind of the possessor or which is inferred through educated guesswork isn't really covered by the DPA. Which means that where an admin infers that Account B is a re-reg of closed Account Y because the IPs match as well as other things like posting style, etc, the DPA doesn't cover that because the link is not physically recorded anywhere.

There are also provisions under the DPA where a company may hold onto a person's information for as long as is reasonably necessary, even if the person requests that the information is deleted. This means that you cannot request that your mortgage company delete all of your personal information because complying with such a request would make it impossible for them to track your mortgage.

I do believe IP Addresses would be covered under this provision as holding onto this information is necessary for the day-to-day running of boards. Afaik there is a policy in place within boards to delete IP information after a set period of time, but I may be mistaken.

anncoates

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why would your post count be an issue? In what context could it be thrown in your face? Genuine question

People actually do constantly bring up the fact that you have a large postcount in all types of arguments/debates as a way of belittling what you're saying or implying that you are siding with the powers that be, etc.

Karl Stein

I'd have no problem with my former infractions following me to this account FWIW. As I said, I'd rather have retained my old account. My post frequency had dropped and I'd toned down my 'style'. I was even toying with the idea of not cursing with this account but fucked that up pretty quick.

Infractions should follow to new accounts. Not sure how big a headache it would be to implement.

Dades

That could never officially or automatically happen. Like with re-reg's, previous account holders with new accounts are identified manually for the most part.

Zaph

rarnes1 wrote: »

Infractions should follow to new accounts. Not sure how big a headache it would be to implement.

The problem there is identifying the new account. If someone with a load of infractions and bans closes their account, chances are they're not going to be too forthcoming about their new identity. Obviously if they are identified (and we have a pretty good success rate at identifying re-regs) their past behaviour is taken into account, especially if they have any outstanding bans that they may be circumventing by using their new account.

My name is URL

I know it's already been tipped upon, but if the main reason behind the idea of a 'Close Account' option existing is to satisfy data protection laws, then would it even make sense to link closed accounts to new ones? Can mods still look up IP histories etc of members who have closed their account? What's the point in a person being able to disassociate themselves with an account if the decision can be effectively made redundant at the behest of an individual volunteer?

It seems to me that the recent outpourings over closed accounts is due to the fact that accounts are now recognizable as being closed. Is there any real reason that the 'Closed Account' tag needs to be displayed under usernames? Why not just leave that space blank for everyone except mods and subscribers?

Insect Overlord

My name is URL wrote: »

Can mods still look up IP histories etc of members who have closed their account? What's the point in a person being able to disassociate themselves with an account if the decision can be effectively made redundant at the behest of an individual volunteer?

Mods don't have access to IP information.