Do you buy into the "Golden Generation" ?

Ruck Inspector

The term "Golden Generation" gets bandied about a lot about a certain group of players who are nearing retirement in the next few years.

Do you buy into this theory that Irish rugby is about to take a noise dive once this generation retires?

Obviously BOD is a once in a generation player but as a group?

errlloyd

Yeah, he has a name

it rhymes with God.

trouttrout

No, it's bull****. The professional game in is still very young and Ireland are producing more talent through the academies than every before. The game is going from strength to strength here and I don't think we've seen anything close to the best Ireland has to offer yet

Podge_irl

Golden Generation = BOD Generation.

He's the only truly irreplaceable player from that time. The overall squad is stronger now than it was 10 years ago.

Tox56

We had a great few years because Munster had all-Irish pack and half backs that were among the best in Europe, but not very good/non-IQ backline. Leinster had an all-Irish backline that was among the best in Europe but not very good/non-IQ pack and half backs. Generalising a bit but that really isn't far off. Couple that with the fact most players were at their peak around the same time and they dovetailed perfectly.

The talent is still there but it is more evenly distributed and coming out more consistently as academies and youth development improves. If the likes of Zebo and all the young guys were coming out in the early-00s they would have made a huge impact on a fairly average Ireland side.

locum-motion

Some of the guys that were touted as the 'Golden Generation' are gone already; I'm thinking of the likes of Dempsey, Murphy, Hickie, Horgan, Stringer, O'Kelly, Hayes, Horan...

Then look at some of the guys who have come in or are coming in to replace them: Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Dcha Ryan, Ross, Healy...

Most of the so-called 'Golden Generation' players are replaceable.

The only one that isn't is BO'D.

ozt9vdujny3srf

locum-motion wrote: »

The only one that isn't is BO'D.

I reckon Paul O'Connell is up there too.

LeeroyJones

Absolutely not. I would say we are in stronger position now than we were 6/7 years ago in terms of players. 6 Nations just past was a disaster for a number of reasons but one of which was injuries. For that reason we cannot reference this 6 nations as a gauge of progress.

BOD is the obvious exception, POC (who can still produce his best IMO at this level for another 2 seasons) also but as eluded to above each of the other players have been replaced.

If you take a look at the squad that we took to WC2007 it shows a formidable XV but very little in the way of depth.
Now we still have a formidable XV, bench and squad.

Teferi

BOD and POC are the only ones really. ROG wouldn't be far off either to be honest.

ormond lad

No. Not at all. We are still only getting the majority of players who make it to academies and full professional academies from a certain number of schools. When we have players coming from a much wider base of the population and only then will we have a true "Golden Generation".
No I don't think we will have a nosedive when this generation retires. Playing numbers across the country have increased so much across the country and will continue to increase and more and more players will make it to the top level from the "non-traditional area's"

Teferi

We're only getting stronger and if we continue developing players like we are currently then we're a long way off the best Ireland can produce but the Golden Generation broke new ground in Irish rugby. Well worthy of their title tbh.

its_phil

A golden generation for quality of players that we had never seen together but when the history books look back it will only say one championship.

It should have been more when you look at the players but your judged by what you won. Not who was playing for you

LeeroyJones

Devils Advocate:
Was the previous generation that good?
Or was it that they were a talented bunch of players who were preceeded by a dreadful 90s?

thomond2006

The Golden Generation ended when one player retired. That is all.

BBDBB

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Devils Advocate:
Was the previous generation that good?
Or was it that they were a talented bunch of players who were preceeded by a dreadful 90s?

thats a good question, but to be truly fair about answering it you would need to consider the context of the advent of professionalism, (including all that follows re diet, training etc) the introduction of European competition, the celtic league, the growth of the game internationally (the 6 nations as opposed to teh 5 nations)

all those factors would have to be considered to be totally fair. But the simple answer is from where we were, to where we got to, and to where we are now, Id say that the golden generation was a media hyped phrase to explain a relatively simple progression in quality and approach attached to teh back of 2 or 3 genuine world class players

BBDBB

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Golden Generation ended when one player retired. That is all.

if anyone can convince the Bull to make a comeback Thomond, you are da man!

Podge_irl

Demetrius Shy Movement wrote: »

I reckon Paul O'Connell is up there too.

I mean it as absolutely no slight on Paul O'Connell but I'd have him a rung below BOD. He's not replaceable in the direct sense, but it wouldn't surprise me to have another player of similar ability turn up in a different position - I think Ferris if he could stay fit would be on a par with him for example.

I wouldn't be surprised to go the rest of my life without seeing someone as good as BOD play for Ireland again.

trouttrout

BOD is one of the greatest players to ever play the game tbh. So ya, it's hard to argue that any Irish player has ever been as important

sydthebeat

Can't be a golden generation if all we have to show for it its one grand slam and a few triple crowns.

I'm looking forward to more success in the next 10 years

totallegend

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Devils Advocate:
Was the previous generation that good?
Or was it that they were a talented bunch of players who were preceeded by a dreadful 90s?

Yeah I'd go along with that. Were our achievements in the period 2004-11 really that good? Or were we just glad not to be wooden spoon candidates every year?

World Cups passed us by, we got our asses handed to us by the southern hemisphere...

The Golden Generation has mostly been replaced by now and we'll be grand. No worse anyway.

As good as O'Connell is, only O'Driscoll is truly irreplaceable.

whatawaster

Teferi wrote: »

BOD and POC are the only ones really. ROG wouldn't be far off either to be honest.

ROG has been replaced by a superior player IMO

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Golden Generation ended when one player retired. That is all.

At the risk of being slated, the fact that Hayes got so many caps despite being a poor to middling tight head casts serious doubt on the Golden Generation idea.

thomond2006

totallegend wrote: »

At the risk of being slated, the fact that Hayes got so many caps despite being a poor to middling tight head casts serious doubt on the Golden Generation idea.

Take that back. Take that back right now. :mad:

Teferi

whatawaster wrote: »

ROG has been replaced by a superior player IMO

I don't disagree hence me saying he wouldn't be far off - he's not irreplaceable but he owned that jersey for the bones of a decade.

corny

2006 V 2013

1. Horan V Healy
2. Flannery V Best
3. Hayes V Ross
4. O' Connell V Ryan
5. O' Kelly V McCarthy
6. Easterby V Ferris
7. Wallace V SOB
8. Leamy V Heaslip
9. Stringer V Murray
10. ROG V Sexton
11. Hickie V Zebo
12. Darcy V Marshall
13. BOD V Doesn't matter
14. Horgan V Bowe
15. Dempsey/Murphy V Kearney

Bar the very obvious drop off at centre we're no worse a side for me. Stronger back row, weaker second row, stronger (arguable) front row, stronger halves and about even back 3. Well maybe i'd prefer Hickie, Shaggy and Murphy.

Add in the fact that the academies are churning out quality players i don't think we're in dire straits at all.

[Jackass]

People are missing the point about what the "golden generation" is, imo.

It wasn't since the 80's that Ireland had won a tripple crown and a grand slam was barely in living memory.

The 1990's was one of the darkest periods in Irish rugby history. We weren't just bad, we were an absolute joke, absolute whipping boys of the 5 nations every season.

To come from where we were, to the turn of the millennium, we suddenly had a team that could take on the French and the English at their own game and win, we had some of the best players in the world, guys like Stringer, O'Gara, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Hickie, Horgan, Dempsey / Murphy, this backline was one of the most exciting in the world at the time, then we had Ulster conquering Europe, followed by Munster and then Leinster.

Legends of the game in the pack like O'Connell, Hayes and O'Kelly, this generation certainly wont be the most decorated in Irish rugby history, and the current generation could and should go on to surpass it, but that's not the point, it is the trail that these players blazed that makes them the golden generation of Irish rugby - a phoenix generation, bringing Ireland from the dust and rising again from our lowest ever point to become a bigger force than we had ever been before.

I don't think more recent fans of rugby, over the last 5 / 10 years, can truly appreciate the journey rugby took in this country to be where it is all now - how low it was, or the appreciation of just how high it had been during that generation in comparrison. It would be similar to the lows of the Irish national soccer team now, and a group of league of Ireland players rising up and taking on Europe with their clubs and beating the best in the world with their national team. A complete and utter mesmeric rise.

I remember reading that O'Driscoll said that he had mixed feelings when guys like Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald were winning Heineken Cups and Grand Slam in their early 20's, because how could they truly appreciate it having not been on the journey to get there - to them it was as expected, they didn't know any better, they just assumed success. There's positives and negatives to that of course, mostly positives, but it puts in context just how far that generation brought us.

thebaz

I'm a strong believer in the Golden generation - BOD and POC are obvious - but add in D'Arcy, Bowe, Kearney, Ferris, o'Brien, heaslip, ROG, DOC, Best - and our record in HC in recent years, cements the reality of a golden generation.

p.s. and Sexton ;-)

lfcjfc

I think that a good crop of players came through at the same time.
BOD and POC were the true once-in-a-lifetime players of this crop. The quality of young players that have come through as other "golden generationors" have retired is as good or better as shown in an earlier post here. In fact, I would question whether the concept of the "golden generation" meant that some players were always guaranteed their place once fit regardless of form and therefore retarded the progression of younger equally-talented players (in my opinion central contracts also play a part here too). We have the pipeline to continue and improve on progress over the previous decade and, in Joe Schmidt, we have just the man to recognise and develop the talent.

MrDerp

corny wrote: »

2006 V 2013

1. Horan V Healy
2. Flannery V Best
3. Hayes V Ross
4. O' Connell V Ryan
5. O' Kelly V McCarthy
6. Easterby V Ferris
7. Wallace V SOB
8. Leamy V Heaslip
9. Stringer V Murray
10. ROG V Sexton
11. Hickie V Zebo
12. Darcy V Marshall
13. BOD V Doesn't matter
14. Horgan V Bowe
15. Dempsey/Murphy V Kearney

Bar the very obvious drop off at centre we're no worse a side for me. Stronger back row, weaker second row, stronger (arguable) front row, stronger halves and about even back 3. Well maybe i'd prefer Hickie, Shaggy and Murphy.

Add in the fact that the academies are churning out quality players i don't think we're in dire straits at all.

Nice comparison, but you are taking the wrong context completely, in my opinion. It's not about today's team V yesterday's. It about how competitive that team were against their peers.

Think about the England side the Golden generation beat after the 2003 world cup, think about the French teams we stood up to, the saffer world champions we beat.

It's all well and good talking about talent today, when we don't have a team now that measures up against their peers. We may have left a grand slam and championship or three behind, but that was a golden generation, make no mistake. Not because they were irreplaceable, but because they were a real team beyond the capability of single players, the BOD exception notwithstanding.

toomevara

Never quite bought into it. BOD aside (a once in a generation player, a physical 'freak' a la lomu, with oodles of natural talent, professionalism and dedication to boot) we have recently produced some very good, decent capable players, How much of that was due to the advent of professionalism and professional structures, I don't know. They were 'golden' only in comparison to what had gone before. We should never forget that in terms of dining at the top table the Irish international team has consistently under achieved. We have never managed to climb the psychological mountain that teams like the AB's and Saffies do regularly

The beating heart of Irish rugby over the past decade or so has been the provincial game, where input from foreign players/coaches had been pivotal. I long for the day when we produce a team of Irish players who can beat the SH giants with regularity, but tbh, I don't see that happening any time soon...

justsomebloke

sydthebeat wrote: »

Can't be a golden generation if all we have to show for it its one grand slam

Given that the last grand slam before that was in 1948, I would of thought that was one of the only reasons we could use the term golden generation?

sydthebeat

justsomebloke wrote: »

Given that the last grand slam before that was in 1948, I would of thought that was one of the only reasons we could use the term golden generation?

my point being, would it be not more literal to call that a golden year then??

'generation' suggest a myriad of success over a prolonged time... which unfortunately thats not what we had.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

my point being, would it be not more literal to call that a golden year then??

'generation' suggest a myriad of success over a prolonged time... which unfortunately thats not what we had.

It is absolutely what we had. Relative to what we had come to expect of rugby in the country.

.ak

Considering we were whiskers away from winning the 6n on numerous occasions I think the fact we had little to show for it skews how good they were.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It is absolutely what we had. Relative to what we had come to expect of rugby in the country.

do you think ireland of 2009 would be considered a 'golden generation' of players in years to come???

consider that between 2008 and 2013 wales have won 3 championships, 2 of which were slams.... WC semi finalists .......

Thats a lot more of a definition of a successful "generation".

What we had was great provincial success which peaked in 2009 in the national team. sorry guys but thats not a "generation" no matter how you dress it up.

justsomebloke

between 2004-2009 we won 40% of our triple crowns and half of our grand slams. not matter what way your look at it, that constitutes the Golden Generation of Irish rugby to date.

sydthebeat

justsomebloke wrote: »

between 2004-2009 we won 40% of our triple crowns and half of our grand slams. not matter what way your look at it, that constitutes the Golden Generation of Irish rugby to date.

if thats how you view it, fine.
But i would argue that its actually a sad indictment of irish rugby if thats the way you present those stats.

.ak

Well you know what they say about stats....

But in reality I can make up my own mind by remembering HOW they played. We were dreadfully unlucky not to get more silverware imo.

totallegend

justsomebloke wrote: »

between 2004-2009 we won 40% of our triple crowns and half of our grand slams. not matter what way your look at it, that constitutes the Golden Generation of Irish rugby to date.

There's little doubt that the recent crop have been better or more successful than their predecessors but the question raised in the op was whether or not we're headed for a fall in the next couple of years.

I think we'll be grand fwiw, the younger guys in the national squad and the talent coming through are plenty good enough to bridge the gap.

And we'll have a decent coach.

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

I'm a strong believer in the Golden generation - BOD and POC are obvious - but add in D'Arcy, Bowe, Kearney, Ferris, o'Brien, heaslip, ROG, DOC, Best - and our record in HC in recent years, cements the reality of a golden generation.

p.s. and Sexton ;-)

To be honest I'm not sure Bowe, Kearney, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Best and Sexton etc are generally accepted as being part of the Golden Generation. They would be more the children or at least the younger brothers of the Golden Generation.

It's more the guys who came through at the start of the noughties and in some cases slightly before.

Think BOD and POC obviously, as well as Hickie, MOK, Murphy, D'Arcy and Demspey but also think of the guys who made their test debuts against Scotland all on the same day back in 2000. Hayes, Easterby, Stringer, ROG and Horgan.

There's really only BOD, POC, DOC, D'Arcy and ROG (will still include as he hasn't retired yet) left and only BOD and POC and maybe D'Arcy who would still be in the Ireland team.

As far as the Golden Generation are concerned they lifted us out of the mire and brought some special memories to Irish rugby fans which as someone who grew up in the 80s and 90s, but was too young to remember the early successes of the 80s, can tell you seemed a lifetime away not so long ago.

The GS is a day I'll never forget, Shaggy's last gasp try at Twickenham for the TC in 2006 was a special moment as well and the list goes, however the greatest achievement for the Golden Generation may just prove to be the inspiration they provided to the next batch of players. I remember hearing Luke Marshall talking about watching BOD score his hat trick in Paris as an 8 year old during the 6Ns and you have to think there are hundreds and maybe thousands of kids who will have picked up a rugby ball in the last decade that otherwise wouldn't have because of the likes of BOD and his peers.

kippy

We're heading for a "less successful" period in Irish Rugby I would think (clubs and country), maybe not a nosedive (define nosedive) but there will be a phase of transition.
As a small country with a very small percentage actively playing in Rugby you don't get many players of the O Connell, O Gara and BOD (Amoung others) coming through at the same time - professional era or not.
So yeah, I do buy into the "Golden Generation" thing.

Thats not to say, there aren't the same calibre of players around the corner or here already but we definitely had a period there that beat any spell ever in Irish rugby.

Grimebox

I always thought it was a phrase that the media liked to use and I largely ignored it, never really bought into it at all. Just a tool to hype up

bilston

kippy wrote: »

We're heading for a "less successful" period in Irish Rugby I would think (clubs and country), maybe not a nosedive (define nosedive) but there will be a phase of transition.
As a small country with a very small percentage actively playing in Rugby you don't get many players of the O Connell, O Gara and BOD (Amoung others) coming through at the same time - professional era or not.
So yeah, I do buy into the "Golden Generation" thing.

Thats not to say, there aren't the same calibre of players around the corner or here already but we definitely had a period there that beat any spell ever in Irish rugby.

If you're talking about Ireland then I think we've had the less successful period already to be honest. That was 2010-2013. I think we'll start to improve now.

kippy

Grimebox wrote: »

I always thought it was a phrase that the media liked to use and I largely ignored it, never really bought into it at all. Just a tool to hype up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_generation

"In sport, a golden generation or golden team is an exceptionally gifted group of players of similar age, whose achievements reach or are expected to reach a level of success beyond that which their team had previously achieved. Below is a list of teams who have been referred to by the media as golden generations."

In fairness, thats the "definition" of a golden generation right there and anyone confused about whether the ireland player of the past decade or so do not fit in with that definition, need to reread it........

kippy

bilston wrote: »

If you're talking about Ireland then I think we've had the less successful period already to be honest. That was 2010-2013. I think we'll start to improve now.

Perhaps, however with the current French, English and indeed Welsh setups, can you see us wining anything of note in the next few years?

sydthebeat

kippy wrote: »

Perhaps, however with the current French, English and indeed Welsh setups, can you see us wining anything of note in the next few years?

yes i can actually, we are seeing through england what limited players can achieve with good management.

i think our players, as a squad, are better than england and not far off wales. i think our change of management is the start of much better things to come.

bilston

kippy wrote: »

Perhaps, however with the current French, English and indeed Welsh setups, can you see us wining anything of note in the next few years?

Yep!

France are dreadful.

England might come good and probably potentially have the best side since '03 but it's not as good so I think things will be pretty even between us and them over the next few years.

Wales are a momentum team, once they get their tails up they are hard to stop. They were lucky they came across a poor French team in Paris a week after we beat them this year.

Grimebox

kippy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_generation

"In sport, a golden generation or golden team is an exceptionally gifted group of players of similar age, whose achievements reach or are expected to reach a level of success beyond that which their team had previously achieved. Below is a list of teams who have been referred to by the media as golden generations."

In fairness, thats the "definition" of a golden generation right there and anyone confused about whether the ireland player of the past decade or so do not fit in with that definition, need to reread it........

I got into Rugby after the inception of the golden generation. I wouldn't have heard the phrase if it wasn't for pre-match coverage on RTE and George Hook going on about the "so-called golden generation". I had nothing else to compare it to so it seemed like empty hype to me.

I'm clearly wrong

PhatPiggins

Wouldn't a golden generation actually have won more than one GS?

Golden by comparison to what came before them but now the minimum standard given the dominance of our teams in europe the past decade.I

kippy

Grimebox wrote: »

I got into Rugby after the inception of the golden generation. I wouldn't have heard the phrase if it wasn't for pre-match coverage on RTE and George Hook going on about the "so-called golden generation". I had nothing else to compare it to so it seemed like empty hype to me.

I'm clearly wrong

It's a "hype" thing, don't get me wrong. But there is some logic behind it.

kippy

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Wouldn't a golden generation actually have won more than one GS?

Golden by comparison to what came before them but now the minimum standard given the dominance of our teams in europe the past decade.I

That's the point though, it's a pretty delusional standard is it not?