Bus Eireann Strikes

skafish

Fattes wrote: »

You have no clue, he has been in Dublin for EVERY Board meeting except 1

That still doesn't answer the question of what he does to earn his salary

barneystinson

skafish wrote: »

That still doesn't answer the question of what he does to earn his salary

The whopping €10,963 he received in 2011?

Seems like a bargain to have the input of someone whose career history reads as follows:

Paul Mallee was appointed as Chairman of Bus Éireann and as a Board Member of Coras Iompair Eireann on 29 June 2011. He is a management consultant specialising in the transport sector, working internationally. Previously, he was a senior corporate strategy executive with Etihad Airways. Paul also worked for several years in the transport practice of the global strategy consultancy Booz & Company. He is a Fellow and the immediate past President of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (CILT) Ireland. He is a graduate of University College Dublin and UCD Michael Smurfit Graduate Business School. Paul holds a Masters Degree in Strategic Management and Planning, a Bachelor of Commerce Degree and a Certificate of Professional Competence in Road Transport Operations Management.

johnr1

kceire wrote: »

Surely driving a bus for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week is long enough without risking the lives if the passengers on the bus?

Try being a driver for a private operator and see where that attitude takes you,- and rightly so. Educate yourself before you speak.

Sully

What's this I hear about management not taking any cut in this deal and staff not allowed work their extra hours by coming in early?

KyussBishop

PeadarCo wrote: »

I think the idea would be privatise Bus Eireann and subsidise unprofitable routes through a tendering process every number of years. If private companies than do the job better and require less subsidies than Bus Eireann they should be given the role.

While privatising Bus Eireann is an option you could also keep the company but make it compete with private companies when it comes to obtaining subsidies for unprofitable/public service routes.

So that would not only be a privatization of profits, and socialization of losses, but would create moral hazard, where private industry receives a guaranteed subsidy no matter what the quality of their service.

No way do I want to see subsidies and profits, going into private executive pockets here; if we keep these services public, even if they are 'inefficient' (which more often just means, prioritizing social values over profit, which is what these services are for in the first place; monetarily inefficient, in order to be socially efficient), then at least the spent money and profits are going to public use or directly into workers pockets.

Privatization of these services, just provides a cash-grab and permanent rent-seeking opportunity for private investors, at a loss to the public (both monetarily and socially) and workers.

PeadarCo

KyussBishop wrote: »

So that would not only be a privatization of profits, and socialization of losses, but would create moral hazard, where private industry receives a guaranteed subsidy no matter what the quality of their service.

No way do I want to see subsidies and profits, going into private executive pockets here; if we keep these services public, even if they are 'inefficient' (which more often just means, prioritizing social values over profit, which is what these services are for in the first place; monetarily inefficient, in order to be socially efficient), then at least the spent money and profits are going to public use or directly into workers pockets.

Privatization of these services, just provides a cash-grab and permanent rent-seeking opportunity for private investors, at a loss to the public (both monetarily and socially) and workers.

As I said the tender would be renewed every number of years. So if the company doesn't do a good job someone else gets the subsidy. As it is now if Bus Eireann is doing a bad job nothing happens only on routes where private companies can be profitable is there any competition. If a service is inefficient it is the public who suffers. The government shouldn't spend any more subsidising public bus services than its need to. There are plenty of other areas under its remit that could do with the money.

On the strike itself it appears that the company has been badly managed when workers appear to consider extras such as allowances such as overtime part of their core pay. While I sympathise with anyone who faces a pay cut it seems here the company is just getting its act together. The drivers core pay won't be touched under the agreement.

Persiancowboy

The dinosaur that is the NBRU has stirred itself.....I see Faherty on the News yesterday threatening to escalate this to Dublin Bus ....an indication that already he and his brothers and sisters can see this strike is going nowhere fast.

It would be interesting to hear his predicatable howls if it was the company rejecting a Labour Court recommendation......

Gumbo

johnr1 wrote: »

Try being a driver for a private operator and see where that attitude takes you,- and rightly so. Educate yourself before you speak.

Try researching before you post, I have family that own a fleet bus company, school runs, HSE accounts, private functions etc.

are you saying that you or your employer are breaking the law in allowing you to drive more than legally allowed?
Or do you know of a company? I hope you reported them, i'll assume no though.

Educate yourself before you speak please

Solair

I wonder if there's any hope of disentangling the Cork (and other big urban) bus networks from the behemoth that is Bus Eireann?

The services in Cork City are often totally inadequate for a city its size and do not compare even to Dublin Bus which is quite poor at the best of times on many routes.

There was some minor tweaking of routes and upgrading in the last few months, but it's still not a great service and definitely needs improvement.

I wonder if this might be the ideal opportunity to just wind it up, hand management and planning over to a body that's accountable to the two local authorities, tender it out to operators who want to take routes (including Bus Eireann if they bid).

The service is ridiculously bad as it is which has resulted in some of Cork's satellite towns like Carrigaline being amongst the most car dependent places in Europe.

I never really understood the logic of having major urban services being operated by what's effectively a long distance coach operator.
It results in strange things like coaches operating on outer urban routes for no logical reason because they're short a bus here / there or consider Cork City to Passage West or Carrigaline etc an intercity journey which results in no buggy / wheelchair access and capacity reductions.

The prices are too high, they've steadfastly refused to even consider introducing modern ticketing in Cork e.g. smart cards and they only very recently integrated the outer suburban and inner suburban bus routes. Until very recently busses from say Carrigaline drove through Douglas, passing city bus stops and refused to pick up passengers because they did not pick up at 'city stops' because they were 'country busses'.

I remember being absolutely infuriated by being refused entry to a bus that stopped at my stop en route to the city centre because it 'was not a city bus'. It was almost 80% empty and was stopping anyway to let passengers off.

I really think they're fighting a losing PR battle here. The company's not liked by the public, considered poor value for money and providing a poor service and they'll find very little sympathy in a lot of places.

These drivers are also paid a LOT more than many of the passengers who can't get to work this morning or who are having to pay out for taxis and all sorts of stuff to earn maybe 50% of what the driver's on and probably in far worse conditions of employment too i.e. longer hours, less flexibility, no job protection etc.

It's not really something that's going to leave those people delighted.

Also, the strike tends to impact on the most vulnerable in society who are actually depending on public transport. It has no impact on those of us who can just hop into a car. It's people on low wages, people who don't have access to cars / can't afford to run them on commutes to works, elderly people, students on tiny budgets etc etc who are going to be hurting because of this.

If they wanted to strike, why not just refuse to accept fares and allow passengers to board?

As it stands, they've just put a whole load of people's jobs at risk who may not be able to make it to work this morning or may be struggling to all week.

---

I wish trade unions would do something to protect workers who are actually being exploited and there are many of them working in all sorts of low paid jobs, as contractors, in call centres with no proper long-term contracts, in all sorts of areas of retail and right across the economy.

Yet, the unions only seem to care about very well protected, well paid, public sector employees (and a few protected aspects of the private sector).

Paulzx

Solair wrote: »

The services in Cork City are often totally inadequate for a city its size and do not compare even to Dublin Bus which is quite poor at the best of times on many routes.

.

I know nothing about the Cork service but I have to be honest and say that the improvement in Dublin Bus over the last 5 years has been huge. Frequent buses, predictable arrival times due to the Dublin Bus app and no traffic delays due to huge increases in Bus corridors has made it an attractive service to use.

I'm sure other people will have opposing views but i've generally been pretty happy with them for the last few years on the routes i use whereas before they were a disaster

Solair

The BÉ service in Cork has had a few extra things added by Transport for Ireland i.e. mostly bus stop real-time signage with arrival times.

However, the frequencies are still totally inadequate.

Little things like this for example:

The 208 route runs from the Western Suburbs through the City Centre (past UCC) and serves the Northeastern Suburbs (St. Lukes, Montenotte, Mayfield, Lotabeg etc)

However, anytime I used it from UCC this is what happens.

Bus runs from UCC to the City Centre and then suddenly becomes "city centre only"

You get to Patrick Street and have to wait for anything up to 30 mins (often in the rain). Then another 208 bus leaves from there which is totally stuffed full double-decker with no space left so you can't board.

Passengers arguing with the bus driver as they're being asked to pay again on the same route etc / can't find the ticket / don't' understand what's going on.

Then you end up having to get a taxi home / walk in the rain.

That happened me about 5 times so I gave up using it.
....

There's also no Cork-specific app, instead you've got to try and find your bus amongst the entire bus eireann network of routes which makes absolutely no sense.

i.e. Why would a Cork City commuter want to have to wade through the entire list of busses serving the whole country to find out when a bus on a system that's supposed to have 10-15 min frequencies is ?

I've never seen that in any other EU country or in the US.

Also, I've lived in cities of Cork's kind of size in France, Spain and Belgium and the public transport here is pathetic in comparison. The busses are shiny and new and there are fancy realtime stop indicators, but the frequencies are just ridiculous and there's no proper ticketing system.

The services in Cork are also significantly worse than Dublin Bus and there's no excuse for that as it's a similarly densely populated area. It should be able to run as well as Dublin Bus, it would just have fewer routes to cover, but the services shouldn't be any different on those routes really.

---

I'm not trying to rant here, but I just think if Bus Eireann paid more attention to their passengers' needs and growing their market and demand, perhaps they wouldn't be operating so many routes at losses.

Drivers' pay is only a tiny fraction of BÉ's problem. The whole organisation needs to be reformed from the ground up and I really do think the urban bus services need to be run by at the very least, Dublin Bus style management structures that actually focus on what urban bus users need.

mike65

Solair does Cork have any independent City services?

Solair

mike65 wrote: »

Solair does Cork have any independent City services?

As far as I am aware, there are a couple of privately operated routes e.g. to Mahon Point Shopping Centre, but there's nothing on a serious / proper level being done.

The Cork City routes from Bus Eireann aren't really independent either in so far as there's no Cork City branding or proper separation from the national long distance network really.

gaius c

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There were no private operators willing to operate on the rural routes around my homeplace this morning. They may have no problem operating on the cash cow routes, but they are less eager to operate on the less profitable routes.

A subvention will still be needed to promote less profitable routes even if Bus Éireann go out of business. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misinformed.

Why should the taxpayer subsidise public transport for people who chose to live in the sticks?

rainbowdash

gaius c wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer subsidise public transport for people who chose to live in the sticks?

Unless I am mistaken all dart, Dublin commuter trains, Dublin bus and intercity rail services are also run at a loss, needing taxpayer subventions to keep them going.

Pete_Cavan

kceire wrote: »

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

woodoo wrote: »

They should fight hard to maintain their 36 hr working week. Agree to move to 37 max.

Why? Sure they are cushy hours - shouldn't they work a full week for their pay?

Surely driving a bus for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week is long enough without risking the lives if the passengers on the bus?

The increase in the working week from 36 hours to 39 hours only applies to clerical and executive staff. Labour Court recommendations here;

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab80257b0900428efa?OpenDocument

gaius c

rainbowdash wrote: »

Unless I am mistaken all dart, Dublin commuter trains, Dublin bus and intercity rail services are also run at a loss, needing taxpayer subventions to keep them going.

Sure but that has a direct benefit on the lives of a huge segment of the population. Why should somebody who chose to build (or buy) a one-off house in the middle of nowhere have taxpayer-funded school bus services and local buses to bring them to town?

Also it seems that bus eireann staff are blocking/picketing some of the private buses now.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/13/meanwhile-in-cork-29/
That's illegal btw.

Pete_Cavan

Labour Court recommendations;

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab80257b0900428efa?OpenDocument

It all seems reasonable, avoiding job loses and protecting core pay, instead implementing changes to overtime and premium payments and conditions. The company is losing €11m a year and, as a commercial company, Bus Eireann can be allowed to fail. The union should recognise the difficulty the company faces and accept that changes are needed to protect the jobs which would otherwise be wiped out. These recommendations came from the Labour Court, had they been in favour of no changes the union would be acting like the recommendations were handed down from God and cant be tampered with. Instead the LC recognises the current work practices mean the company is not financially viable and changes are need, yet the union totally reject the recommendations.

The private sector can and does operate bus routes and should be utilised if the state company refuses to accept commercial reality. Private companies should tender to operate routes, based on times, frequency, operating hours, no. of stops, etc. as set out by National Transport Authority who also determine the fares. Routes could be bundled together to create economies of scale. The private companies would only have to provide the bus and the driver (certified buses of a certain standard and drivers vetted), and maintain their buses. All tickets should be bought over the internet or at the station/stops, as per Luas. All money from ticket sales goes to NTA who use this money (plus some subsidies most likely) to pay the private company for their services. That way it does not matter to the private company how many people us a particular service or how much a ticket costs, they are simply providing a service on behalf of NTA. This uses private sector efficiencies for purchasing/maintenance of buses, purchasing fuel, etc. As the state owns the stations, they can log the buses arriving/leaving to ensure all services are running and that they are on-time with penalties for not running a bus or consistently being late.

mike65

Solair wrote: »

As far as I am aware, there are a couple of privately operated routes e.g. to Mahon Point Shopping Centre, but there's nothing on a serious / proper level being done.

The Cork City routes from Bus Eireann aren't really independent either in so far as there's no Cork City branding or proper separation from the national long distance network really.

Waterford has two (three if taking in longer routes to Dublin and Nenagh) but they offer services that Bus Error does not so its not direct competition, which is understandable but of little help when one goes on strike of course.

garhjw

i'm listening to newstalk and they have been speaking to people on the pickets in cork and dublin. it shows what the problem is and i truly feel sorry for management having to deal with the NBRU. Having said that, management are clearly not up to the job allowing the situation get this far.

squod

Management aren't accepting pay cut either as far as I know. Ludicrous isn't it?

gaius c

garhjw wrote: »

i'm listening to newstalk and they have been speaking to people on the pickets in cork and dublin. it shows what the problem is and i truly feel sorry for management having to deal with the NBRU. Having said that, management are clearly not up to the job allowing the situation get this far.

Meh. The management have been trying to deal with this for ages and the unions are going against the labour courts recommendations.

yenom

Why not start at the top? The management refuse to take pay cuts. The head of the company is on hundreds of thousands and refuses to take a cut.

oscarBravo

yenom wrote: »

Why not start at the top? The management refuse to take pay cuts.

Would the drivers accept their cuts if management pay was cut?

Mr.Micro

gaius c wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer subsidise public transport for people who chose to live in the sticks?

The same people many of whom, grow the food and manage the life stock or work in agriculture. Yeah what a waste, lol.

Mr.Micro

All this strike business and the threat of strikes by other unions, re the Croke Park agreement is akin to unions in the 1970 's. Unrealistic in view of the situation we are in. Has anybody told these people we are living on borrowed money?

DoesNotCompute

Breaking News are reporting that both sides are to come to the negotiating table at 8pm tonight:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-hope-for-end-to-bus-strike-594273.html

gaius c

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The same people many of whom, grow the food and manage the life stock or work in agriculture. Yeah what a waste, lol.

You think all those one-off houses in our contryside belong to farmers?

KyussBishop

PeadarCo wrote: »

As I said the tender would be renewed every number of years. So if the company doesn't do a good job someone else gets the subsidy. As it is now if Bus Eireann is doing a bad job nothing happens only on routes where private companies can be profitable is there any competition. If a service is inefficient it is the public who suffers. The government shouldn't spend any more subsidising public bus services than its need to. There are plenty of other areas under its remit that could do with the money.

On the strike itself it appears that the company has been badly managed when workers appear to consider extras such as allowances such as overtime part of their core pay. While I sympathise with anyone who faces a pay cut it seems here the company is just getting its act together. The drivers core pay won't be touched under the agreement.

That's not replying to anything in my post, that's repeating what you've already said; Bus Eireann is a public company, not a private for-profit one, and providing such subsidy to a private company, creates the situation described in my last post:

KyussBishop wrote: »

So that would not only be a privatization of profits, and socialization of losses, but would create moral hazard, where private industry receives a guaranteed subsidy no matter what the quality of their service.

No way do I want to see subsidies and profits, going into private executive pockets here; if we keep these services public, even if they are 'inefficient' (which more often just means, prioritizing social values over profit, which is what these services are for in the first place; monetarily inefficient, in order to be socially efficient), then at least the spent money and profits are going to public use or directly into workers pockets.

Privatization of these services, just provides a cash-grab and permanent rent-seeking opportunity for private investors, at a loss to the public (both monetarily and socially) and workers.

johnr1

kceire wrote: »

Try researching before you post, I have family that own a fleet bus company, school runs, HSE accounts, private functions etc.

are you saying that you or your employer are breaking the law in allowing you to drive more than legally allowed?
Or do you know of a company? I hope you reported them, i'll assume no though.

Educate yourself before you speak please

Haha, I've also grown up in a private bus operator family, and now drive for different bus company. I'm well aware of the rules about driving buses/passengers, so save your condescending comments.

They wouldn't be breaking any rules in Bus Eireann by doing a full week's work for their pay.