Spirituality without Religion

nagirrac

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

What I am getting at is that when we explore what we unfortunately end up calling "spirituality" we are exploring aspects of mind.... or exploring mind from angles..... that are above and beyond what the average joe soap on the street is doing / experiencing.

I would tend to agree with this. I think the idea of spirit came from when man started to reflect on himself and his environment. It must have been quite the occasion when a species of sentient beings, not that dissimilar to other developed species, started to become self aware and wonder about their place in the universe and who they were.

I tend to think of spirit as the concept of value as outlined by Pirsig in ZAMM and Lila, the "Metaphysics of Quality". In that sense I do think of it as 3 things, objective reality, subjective reality and the quality we attach to subjective reality. I agree this idea of quality is a part of mind but where did the idea of value come from? At some point we moved beyond eating and sleeping like all other animals to attaching value to certain activities. It is a bit of a challenge to rationalize why that capability of mind evolved and was selected for.

There is no question that even in primitive societies there were advanced thinkers or mystics who explored the various states of mind. Psychedelics have been in use for thousands of years which induced out of body and other mystical adventures. There is research that suggests all religions came from mystical experiences of a broader reality, whether induced by psychedelics or meditation.

sbsquarepants

nagirrac wrote: »

It's only an obvious question though if you think in terms of the passage of time. The question "where did it all come from?" is a paradox of the human mind, regardless of whether you consider God or not. What was there before the big bang, etc?

One answer is the block universe where the question just goes away. It also takes away a strong argument for atheism, .

I don't see how the question goes away? Even if the universe is as per the block theory - it still exists and it's still made of something, we are still in it, still sentient and all that. All the same questions exist.

nagirrac wrote: »

This doesn't provide any answer to the God question either, but its a fascinating way to think about the universe.

I was reading earlier on today about experiments going on that seem to suggest the future can in fact influence the past, suggesting that time is not "flowing" in a given direction but merely an axis like the 3 spatial ones. Obviously we percieve it to flow from past to future, but perception isn't the be all and end all.
http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future
Although the article is a couple of years old, i only came across it today and haven't had a chance to really read it properly - it could well have been disproven by now. So if it has, don't shoot me!

Tombo2001

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I think the crux of my post was to suggest that the third thing in that list is superfluous. It is just another aspect of mind.

What I am getting at is that when we explore what we unfortunately end up calling "spirituality" we are exploring aspects of mind.... or exploring mind from angles..... that are above and beyond what the average joe soap on the street is doing / experiencing.

What it means to be sentient for example is all "Mind". This "spirit" word is superfluous. But we can ask questions about what that means.... whether we feel it morally or ethically asks anything of us.

Or we can explore using or training our moment to moment attention in ways where we do a little more than living in the past and planning for the future but we instead explore the present moment.

What does it actually mean to be "happy" and does being happy always require some external input like money, sex, being loved, roller coaster rides, nice food or is it possible to attain happiness from an internal project.

Exploring our place in the universe and seeing ourselves as part of an interconnected whole... and asking what implications that actually has for us.

And so on. The list is very long indeed but for me it is all "Body Mind". The word "spirit" is either superfluous and not required.... or it is a subset of the "mind" category.

To "nurture" that section just engage in all the things I listed above. Meditate. Learn. Experiment. Ask questions and explore them. Investigate methodologies of attaining happiness that are more introspective than from external input. Ascertain, influence and be influenced by your place in the universe.

Perhaps the reason you feel a hole that needs to be nurtured is not because you have not been nurturing it but there IS nothing there to nurture. The entire third category is something you might feel is there, want to be there, or think should be there. However there is no reason to think it is.

It may be that it is just another aspect of mind, thats true.

Its hard to say.......what do you 'feel' with......your mind? your heart?

Perhaps the point is, to nurture our feelings......to make ourselves 'feel' better......people normally look to external things......money, exercise whatever....

Is there way of training our spirit.......in the same way we do our minds or bodies.......so that we can 'feel' better emotionally (as opposed to mentally or physically)........more contented......less anxious.......

nagirrac

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't see how the question goes away? Even if the universe is as per the block theory - it still exists and it's still made of something, we are still in it, still sentient and all that. All the same questions exist.

It goes away becaue there is no passage of time. The idea of past moving to present moving to future does not exist in the real universe, those ideas are only in our heads. Somewhere/somewhen in the universe you and I are not born, a baby, as we are now, and dead. They all exist, but we experience them in a linear fashion as a tiny slice of the universe that we call our lifetime.

The experiment you posted is part of the same thing, there is a version of the double slit experiment called "delayed choice" which was proposed by John Wheeler and was demonstrated experimentally in 1982 by Scully and Druhl. Simply put what this shows is that even if you close one slit after a photon or electron has passed through, the behavior is still consistent i.e. it behaves as a particle if you close one slit and as a wave if you left both open. Even though whatever "it" is had already passed through the apparatus!

nagirrac

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Is there way of training our spirit.......in the same way we do our minds or bodies.......so that we can 'feel' better emotionally (as opposed to mentally or physically)........more contented......less anxious.......

Yes, its called meditation or mindful awareness. These are treatment options that are now taken very seriously in psychology, and explain why therapy (which is just training you to think differently anyway) can be successful if the patient participates in it fully. The evidence suggest that through focussed thought you actually change the neural structure in your brain (neuroplasticity). This has been experimentally seen using fMRI, looking at the before and after, the brain undergoes physical changes.

It makes sense based on what we now know about the brain, that it is not a hardwired computer like device, but a plastic fluid structure that continues to evolve and develop during our lifetime. It also explains why people can regain functions lost in a stroke for example, where the same functions are built in another area of the brain.

Sarky

Exercise anyway. A healthy body puts far less pressures on your mind than an unhealthy one.

DarkDusk

ThirdMan wrote: »

I've had a number of experiences in the past that I'd call spiritual (although spiritual means different things to different people). The first few times it was while I was on LSD. But then I began to have them without having to induce it. It's a little hard to explain, but it's mostly just an overwhelming feeling that you're connected to everything. I didn't think there was something 'out there' or anything like that. I guess I just recognised myself as being part of something bigger, like evolution, the universe, life, whatever. And of course we are a part of all those things. But I became acutely aware of how significant that was, and it floored me. I also started to have these hallucinations about music, art, literature, etc. I got a real sense of how all of these things are connected, and that by engaging with this stuff I was somehow connected to people from all over the world. It's a beautiful feeling. It's almost impossible to describe it without using words like wonder, space, together. I know that sounds a bit soppy but it's true.

As I said, the first few times I was on LSD, but I've also had similar experiences later in life. There's no hallucinations, but the 'feeling' is there. It happens very infrequently, but it only happens when I'm listening to music, or swimming in the sea. Something like that. I'm sure some people will just say "ah that stuff is messing with your head..." And yeah, I guess they're right. I mean that's the whole point of taking LSD. But I'd love to know how it's messing with my head, because it's the most powerful thing I've ever felt, and I honestly believe there are strong parallels between psychedelic and mystical experiences. I know Sam Harris writes on this topic as well. He speaks far more eloquently than I do, so maybe check him out if you're interested in exploring it in the context of atheism or whatever.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know exactly the feeling you describe and it fascinates me also.
"Reality" as we know it is merely our perception of it with the senses we have at our disposal. Reality for a bat is very different to us, for a shark it's different again.
When under the influence of things like LSD or pscilocibin "reality" is very different - but does that make it any less "real". I always use the argument that if there was psilocibin in everyday fruit and veg - we'd see the world that way all the time and it would be normal reality by default. With my normal evolved senses i can't detect UV or IR, doesn't mean it's not everywhere i look, i just can't detect it.

Hi guys,
After looking through this thread and reading your posts, I have to say that I agree very strongly with your experiences. I have not tried LSD yet, but I have been thinking about trying it sometime soon. In my opinion, we are just consciousness experiencing a reality in a physical body, from different perspectives. I firmly believe that animals and plants have consciousness and maybe even non-living objects. I had a great (my greatest so far) spiritual experience recently when I decided to visit a nearby forest and meditate beside trees. I was aware of the tress' consciousness and I felt an amazing boost in energy afterwards. I've looked on the internet and many other people have had the same experience as me, so I'd highly recommend trying it out yourself (all you need is an open mind). Now, maybe it was just all in my head, but it definitely felt great afterwards!

I agree with a lot of the stuff Bill Hicks has said in the past, and I agree with a lot of what he says in this video (I also love the comedy, of course! My favourite comedian for definite). What do you think about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D0BeLz5blM

Looking forward to other people's opinions and thoughts on this.

Obliq

DarkDusk wrote: »

Hi guys,
After looking through this thread and reading your posts, I have to say that I agree very strongly with your experiences. I have not tried LSD yet, but I have been thinking about trying it sometime soon.

I don't recommend that you try ANY psychotropic substance tbh. Speaking for myself here, the long term effects of my chemical experiments are still with me today, and not in a good way. I can't say that the falsified feeling of connectedness that I experienced on speed, LSD and E were worth the subsequent memory loss, anxiety and lack of focus. The fact that I dangerously altered the capacity for my neurotransmitter receptors to receive information in chemical form gave me a 5 year (at the very least, and on/off to this day) dose of serious depression that I brought totally on myself. This led to me making many life choices that I perhaps could have been much wiser about. While I have no regrets - it's my life and that's what I chose to do at the time, had I known then what I know now? Nope, not worth it.

Respectfully, I think you should educate yourself thoroughly about the actual physical long and short term effects of any drug these days, as the information is out there. At least make an informed choice, whichever way you go on it.




http://www.biologyreference.com/Se-T/Synaptic-Transmission.html

It can be particularly dangerous for someone who has potential for schizophrenia, to take LSD. I personally know two people who took LSD and this led directly to psychosis. One on his first trip, the other after at least a year of weekend parties. The first is still on medication for schizophrenia, the other lives as a hermit and has difficulties socialising still, 15 years on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide#Potential_adverse_effects

Psychosis
There are some cases of LSD inducing a psychosis in people who appeared to be healthy before taking LSD.[55] In most cases, the psychosis-like reaction is of short duration, but in other cases it may be chronic. It is difficult to determine whether LSD itself induces these reactions or if it triggers latent conditions that would have manifested themselves otherwise. The similarities of time course and outcomes between putatively LSD-precipitated and other psychoses suggest that the two types of syndromes are not different and that LSD may have been a nonspecific trigger.[citation needed]
Estimates of the prevalence of LSD-induced prolonged psychosis lasting over 48 hours have been made by surveying researchers and therapists who had administered LSD:
Cohen (1960) estimated 0.8 per 1,000 volunteers (the single case among approximately 1250 study volunteers was the identical twin of a schizophrenic and he recovered within 5 days) and 1.8 per 1,000 psychiatric patients (7 cases among approximately 3850 patients, of which 2 cases were "preschizophrenic" or had previous hallucinatory experience, 1 case had unknown outcome, 1 case had incomplete recovery, and 5 cases recovered within up to 6 months).[56]
Malleson (1971) reported no cases of psychosis among experimental subjects (170 volunteers who received a total of 450 LSD sessions) and estimated 9 per 1,000 among psychiatric patients (37 cases among 4300 patients, of which 8 details are unknown, 10 appeared chronic, and 19 recovered completely within up to 3 months).[27]

loveisdivine

Whilst everything obliq said above is true, there is a flip side too it. My OH spent years regularly taking a whole host of drugs. You name it, he's probably tried it. However he has had virtually no negative side effects. Maybe a couple of bad trips and that's it. He hasn't taken any for a few years now though.
He is the calmest most mentally stable person I know. I've only ever smoked a little weed and I have suffered with anxiety, depression and self harm.

Theres a risk with all these things but drugs aren't always the evil they are made out to be. You just have to be prepared for negative consequences aswell as good.

Obliq

loveisdivine wrote: »

Theres a risk with all these things but drugs aren't always the evil they are made out to be. You just have to be prepared for negative consequences aswell as good.

I believe you about your fella, and I also know people who are extremely intellectually sharp, calm and reasonable after years of drug taking.

Your sentence above is true to an extent, but the negative consequences are not something you CAN prepare for. They either happen, or they don't, and they can be devastating. Some negative consequences are permanent/semi permanent, such as damaging the balance of brain chemistry in a person who already has some psychological problems they may not be aware of.

Of course depression and anxiety can happen to anyone, with/without drugs, but I can safely tell you that it is extremely common that these are exacerbated and accelerated by taking class A's of any description. Just giving that young wan a bit of a warning from a 42 year old with a former 10 year history of drug abuse! I notice he/she is still in school.......

nozzferrahhtoo

nagirrac wrote: »

I would tend to agree with this. I think the idea of spirit came from when man started to reflect on himself and his environment.

It is hard to imagine where it all "came from" but I imagine it is no one thing but an amalgamation of many things. The idea of a spirit self seperate from what we usually think of as mind and body seems to come naturally to our species.

I remember for example the experiments done with children where they were show the death of some cartoon characters. When asked if those characters still need to eat, sleep or use the toilet (among many other questions) the answers were always "no".

However ask the same children what those characters "want" and they still answer as if the characters are alive and well with hopes and desires still intact.

nagirrac wrote: »

It is a bit of a challenge to rationalize why that capability of mind evolved and was selected for.

Indeed it is. As with all things in evolution however it is important not JUST to ask why it was selected for. Many things evolve without being selected for. Either by getting selected alongside something else that WAS selected for.... or by emerging as a byproduct of things that were selected for. It is just as possible the answer to mind lies there.

nozzferrahhtoo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Is there way of training our spirit.......in the same way we do our minds or bodies.......so that we can 'feel' better emotionally (as opposed to mentally or physically)........more contented......less anxious.......

Sam Harris seems convinced that introspection and meditation is the way to that. He talks about how people training their moment to moment awareness attain happiness "before" any external stimulus which we normally associate with "happiness". You appear to be on quite a similar path of questioning as him. His talk on "death" which deals heavily in his opinions in the matter of meditation and its uses might be a good hour spent listening for you.

Certainly something does appear to be going on in that realm. Despite the fact that isolation from others is considered a punishment even IN our prisons... introspectives coming out of caves from years of self imposed isolation and introspection do so espousing all kinds of theories of happiness and contentment. Clearly something is going on there which secular discourse has only comparatively recently turned it's eye towards where Religion used to be the only game in town.

robindch

Obliq wrote: »

Respectfully, I think you should educate yourself thoroughly about the actual physical long and short term effects of any drug these days, as the information is out there. At least make an informed choice, whichever way you go on it.

I spent a few years working part-time in a well-known homeless charity in central Dublin -- anybody considering taking drugs should consider doing a stint there.

Tombo2001

robindch wrote: »

I spent a few years working part-time in a well-known homeless charity in central Dublin -- anybody considering taking drugs should consider doing a stint there.

As someone with a schizophrenic in the family who was formerly a 'recreational' drug user, I will second and third this opinion.

People think these things cant damage you.......? Wake up.

Your body and mind are precious objects.

Obliq

robindch wrote: »

I spent a few years working part-time in a well-known homeless charity in central Dublin -- anybody considering taking drugs should consider doing a stint there.

Yes - am totally with you on that. I did a 6 month stint in the Capuchin Day Centre on Bow Lane myself. My reason for working there was because I knew how lucky I was to have had my middle class supportive parents to fall back on. Having spent years in England, getting myself into more and more trouble in terms of mental health and accomodation/social problems, I knew many people who's drug taking spiraled out of control and didn't have any access to the kind of help I got.

You couldn't throw a sandwich up in the air at the day centre without it hitting someone who's mental health had been permanently damaged by drug abuse.

Magnetics

robindch wrote: »

I spent a few years working part-time in a well-known homeless charity in central Dublin -- anybody considering taking drugs should consider doing a stint there.

It's a bit silly to lump all drugs into one category like that. There effects are vastly different and act on different parts of the brain. The vast majority of people who us drugs recreationally have no problem with them. Like with alcohol, a very small minority of people have bad experiences/develop dependency

I have to say LSD for me was one of the most positive experiences in my life. It lets you analyse yourself in ways that you cannot do in a normal state of consciousness. The pain you cause yourself and to family members by actions in your life, however small they are, are put in front of you to deal with there and then. It can be distressing but without a doubt has changed my life for the better

Tombo2001

Magnetics wrote: »

It's a bit silly to lump all drugs into one category like that.

Look I'd question that on the following front....

You've taken LSD and you had a positive experience from it. I'll take your word for it.

Hundreds of thousands of people took LSD and sufferred brain damage as a result.

You can't extrapolate from your own experience and say "everyone else will have the same experience as me". People react to drugs in different ways, people consume drugs in different ways.

With any drug, but particularly something like LSD.....and I'm only guessing here, I'm no expert.......there is a chance it can damage your health in a very meaningful way. (A very small minority of people have a bad experience from Alcohol? really? check any A+E on a Saturday night).

Its a roulette wheel. It came up the right colour fo you. It might not have.

Anyway, I might exercise some rights as OP and say I have no interest in a discussion about drugs where personal spirituality is concerned.

robindch

Magnetics wrote: »

It's a bit silly to lump all drugs into one category like that. There effects are vastly different and act on different parts of the brain. The vast majority of people who us drugs recreationally have no problem with them. Like with alcohol, a very small minority of people have bad experiences/develop dependency

Yes, you're right of course, but it's impossible to know ahead of time how your body and mind are going to react. Some people handle drugs (and drink) positively, some handle them for years without major deficits, some people go off the rails on the first trip.

BTW, two homeless guys I knew died of drug overdoses - one inside the shelter when I was off-shift, and one in the foetal position, up against a cold wall, a few yards from the front door, when I was on-shift.

Makes you think about the wisdom of drug-taking.

Tombo2001

robindch wrote: »

Yes, you're right of course, but it's impossible to know ahead of time how your body and mind are going to react. Some people handle drugs (and drink) positively, some handle them for years without major deficits, some people go off the rails on the first trip.

BTW, two homeless guys I knew died of drug overdoses - one inside the shelter when I was off-shift, and one in the foetal position, up against a cold wall, a few yards from the front door, when I was on-shift.

Makes you think about the wisdom of drug-taking.

That is tragic....what a way to end up.

sbsquarepants

DarkDusk wrote: »

I was aware of the tress' consciousness and I felt an amazing boost in energy afterwards. I've looked on the internet and many other people have had the same experience as me, so I'd highly recommend trying it out yourself (all you need is an open mind). Now, maybe it was just all in my head, but it definitely felt great afterwards!
.

Of course it was all in your mind.......but then what isn't!
Also Bill Hicks was brilliant - i wish he was still around and doing new material - i've seen his old stuff too often to laugh at it anymore.:mad:
If there were more like hin the world would be a better place.

robindch wrote: »

I spent a few years working part-time in a well-known homeless charity in central Dublin -- anybody considering taking drugs should consider doing a stint there.

A tiny bit hysterical, but nonetheless true in some cases- drugs effect some people very badly.
But it is no more true to suggest that anyone who tries drugs will end up in some homeless hostel than it is to suggest that everyone who tries a pint will end up a hopeless alcoholic, or that evryone who has a flutter on the grand national will eventualy end up blowing little johnnies communion money on a 33/1 sure thing in the 3.50 from punchestown.
Some people can and do behave themselves.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

People think these things cant damage you.......? Wake up.

Only an idiot could think that.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of people took LSD and sufferred brain damage as a result..

No they didn't. A very small percentage of people with pre existing dispositions to some psychiatric conditions may have been tipped over the edge, but that's about it.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Anyway, I might exercise some rights as OP and say I have no interest in a discussion about drugs where personal spirituality is concerned.

If that's what you want. But it's like starting a thread about fitness and saying i want no discussion about running because people have had heart attacks doing it, so therefore it is always a bad idea.

Tombo2001

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Of course it was all in your mind.......but then what isn't!
Also Bill Hicks was brilliant - i wish he was still around and doing new material - i've seen his old stuff too often to laugh at it anymore.:mad:
If there were more like hin the world would be a better place.



A tiny bit hysterical, but nonetheless true in some cases- drugs effect some people very badly.
But it is no more true to suggest that anyone who tries drugs will end up in some homeless hostel than it is to suggest that everyone who tries a pint will end up a hopeless alcoholic, or that evryone who has a flutter on the grand national will eventualy end up blowing little johnnies communion money on a 33/1 sure thing in the 3.50 from punchestown.
Some people can and do behave themselves.



Only an idiot could think that.



No they didn't. A very small percentage of people with pre existing dispositions to some psychiatric conditions may have been tipped over the edge, but that's about it.




If that's what you want. But it's like starting a thread about fitness and saying i want no discussion about running because people have had heart attacks doing it, so therefore it is always a bad idea.

Hiya..

I dont know how to do the multi-quote thing, but thanks for the response.

I take your point on open discussion, I accept that. Personally, experimenting with drugs is not something I would do or recommend to have a spiritual experience; but if other people want to discuss it, so be it.

Your comment that 'only an idiot would think that'....

I'll rephrase what I said originally.

"people think these things can't hurt you".....

Everyone knows that drugs can cause damage. My point would be that people think it wont hurt them, individually.

No fifteen year old lighting up their first ever cigarette is thinking "in 40 years time I'll be in a hospital bed because of this"......but it does happen. You start somewhere and one thing leads to another.

And on the point of pre-disposed psychiatric conditions......its not like the condition would have occurred anyway......smoking dope is a catalyst for psychiatric conditions.......when I was smoking joints as a 16 year old, I certainly didnt know that......I knew it wasnt good for me......but I didnt know about that specific risk........so it is, in my view, and I say this as someone with a brother who came out the wrong end of it, rolling a roulette wheel with your health. So in that case I would say, definitely people dont know the damage it can cause.

sbsquarepants

I accept all your points!
I just feel there is a tendency for people (not neccesarilly yourself or anyone else here) to be overly dramatic and polarised when it comes to to the issue of drugs - like the only possible outcome is misery, heartache and death, when that simply is not the case. Good times can be had, "spiritual" for want of a better word experiences can be had. There is good and bad in practically everything.
I personally wouldn't advise anyone to take any drug (including alcohol) but if someone is inclined to try (and lets face it countless millions are) then they should be supplied with accurate information to minimise the risks. Scaremongering is not an effective deterent and prohibiton simply doesn't work. Any how, i'll get down off my soap box, i don't want to get too far off what is a very interesting topic!

Popular Hardback

Can you enjoy stamp collecting without collecting stamps, while complaining about stamp collecting is your hobby ? Hmmmm.

Turtwig

Popular Hardback wrote: »

Can you enjoy stamp collecting without collecting stamps, while complaining about stamp collecting is your hobby ? Hmmmm.

Your posts on this forum seem bizarrely obsessed with stamp collecting.