Spirituality without Religion

sbsquarepants

Sarky wrote: »

I dunno. I think it's the searching for answers that makes humanity awesome. That's why I have little but contempt for easy answers like religion, some of which actively discourage one from questioning.

If there was nothing left for us to question, I think we'd die of boredom, no matter how many flying cars we had. Or we'd invent new things to tear eachother apart over. like, say, a new religion.

I think it's more the finding the answers rather than the looking that's gotten us to where we are. It's probably a moot point anyway as we'll most likely just find more questions rather than all the answers.

But i absolutely do agree, anything that discourages questioning or the active ignoring of evidence is just plain stupid at best and downright damaging at worst. Facts are facts, beliefs should never be treated as facts.

We should question everything, if a belief has any substance it should withstand the questioning, if it can't do that then that's a big ben sized alarm bell ringing right there. Don't hit snooze and carry on daydreaming, wake the fúck up!!

Tombo2001

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It is!

Also for someone who isn't religious, you sure seem to spend a lot of time in churches!

A couple of times a year.

I've nothing against churches or the people in them, I just dont believe in it all.

However, on the plus side, it is the only occasion in my area where people from the local community come together and meet up.......

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Tombo2001 wrote: »

.....she says really loud....."He said 'Jesus Christ'"...... (she thinks its a bad word).

It is!

Except when it's not.

Metaphorically, it's a bad word -- gotta remember your contexts!

sbsquarepants

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A couple of times a year.

I've nothing against churches or the people in them, I just dont believe in it all.

However, on the plus side, it is the only occasion in my area where people from the local community come together and meet up.......

What kind of one horse town hasn't got a dogging spot these days?:D

Tombo2001

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What kind of one horse town hasn't got a dogging spot these days?:D

If ever there was a comment to end a conversation....

I'll take my search for spirituality elsewhere!!!!:D

Geomy

Sarky wrote: »

Treasure the moment, I'm sure before long I'll say something logical, witty or backed up by evidence and you'll hate me all over again.

Dont hate you at all iv accepted you walk the walk as well as talking the talk. ..

Sure I have been a bit offended by your,wit,logic and sarcasm but looking back you never offended me or any of my posts so therefore it's none of my business how you're debating on boards.

So I just sit back now and say Fck it lifes too short for getting offended on here...

Cork boy 55

you can find spirituality by connecting with nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwARpaKHx_w

Obliq

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A couple of times a year.

I've nothing against churches or the people in them, I just dont believe in it all.

However, on the plus side, it is the only occasion in my area where people from the local community come together and meet up.......

That was me, bringing my lads to respectfully and inclusively celebrate important days (supposedly) in their school friend's lives, ie. communion/confirmation, until a few years ago when Bishop Willie Walsh did the service in our church and some poor misfortunate young child was made to stand and give thanks for the school keeping the children strong in their faith.....and I was SO outta there.

It's all fine staying at the back, until you feel like shouting at those at the front. THEN you'll have something against even your local church, with your local friends seeing nothing wrong in your beliefs being put down in public = problem. I now meet them in the pub afterwards. :mad:

Sarky

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

you can find spirituality by connecting with nature.

<sounds of bag of cats being trampled by parade of lawnmowers>

Jesus! Hand in your atheist licence, kid.

ThirdMan

I've had a number of experiences in the past that I'd call spiritual (although spiritual means different things to different people). The first few times it was while I was on LSD. But then I began to have them without having to induce it. It's a little hard to explain, but it's mostly just an overwhelming feeling that you're connected to everything. I didn't think there was something 'out there' or anything like that. I guess I just recognised myself as being part of something bigger, like evolution, the universe, life, whatever. And of course we are a part of all those things. But I became acutely aware of how significant that was, and it floored me. I also started to have these hallucinations about music, art, literature, etc. I got a real sense of how all of these things are connected, and that by engaging with this stuff I was somehow connected to people from all over the world. It's a beautiful feeling. It's almost impossible to describe it without using words like wonder, space, together. I know that sounds a bit soppy but it's true.

As I said, the first few times I was on LSD, but I've also had similar experiences later in life. There's no hallucinations, but the 'feeling' is there. It happens very infrequently, but it only happens when I'm listening to music, or swimming in the sea. Something like that. I'm sure some people will just say "ah that stuff is messing with your head..." And yeah, I guess they're right. I mean that's the whole point of taking LSD. But I'd love to know how it's messing with my head, because it's the most powerful thing I've ever felt, and I honestly believe there are strong parallels between psychedelic and mystical experiences. I know Sam Harris writes on this topic as well. He speaks far more eloquently than I do, so maybe check him out if you're interested in exploring it in the context of atheism or whatever.

Obliq

Woah, I know, right?! Maybe we ARE all connected man.....with everything! That wallpaper is hearing me and I'm so synced right now......:eek::eek:

Obliq

Sorry. Yeah, it sounded a little soppy. And very much like ongoing flashbacks

ThirdMan

Obliq wrote: »

Woah, I know, right?! Maybe we ARE all connected man.....with everything! That wallpaper is hearing me and I'm so synced right now......:eek::eek:

That's the reaction I expected

Seriously though. It's quite an interesting subject. Particularly so for me because I don't believe in god, energy or whatever you want to call it. It would be easy to ascribe it to something 'out there'. But the fact is that a lot of people around the world know what I'm talking about, many or most of whom have never taken anything to induce it. The human body is a real mystery at times.

nagirrac

To try and answer the original question, I think the easiest way to understand the distinction is to study Buddhism, as technically a Buddhist is neither religious (in the mainstream meaning of the word) nor atheist (in the mainstream meaning of the word). Although it is commonly believed that Buddhists are atheist, this is somewhat incorrect and mainly based on a Western interpretation of Buddhism. Many Buddhists do not consider the God question at all, as to them God is unknowable. For those that do, such as Zen Buddhists, their idea of God has almost nothing in commmon with theistic beliefs, it is the God of panentheism, the totality of reality through which and within which our universe exists.

Much of organized religion to me is a delusion, the delusion being that we can know God and even worse that God is someone to be feared and obeyed, and by extension that religious leaders should also be feared and obeyed. Spirituality is something to learn and experience through study and practice (meditation) and thus is entirely complementary to science and not in conflict with science. What is ironic is that even the most dogmatic religions, like Christianity, have a mystical or spiritual basis (gnosticism), which in my view is the true core of the religion before the fear and obedience tenets were added for control purposes.

ThirdMan

Obliq wrote: »

Sorry. Yeah, it sounded a little soppy. And very much like ongoing flashbacks

Flashbacks? The 1970's just called. It wants its moral panic back.

Obliq

ThirdMan wrote: »

That's the reaction I expected

Seriously though. It's quite an interesting subject. Particularly so for me because I don't believe in god, energy or whatever you want to call it. It would be easy to ascribe it to something 'out there'. But the fact is that a lot of people around the world know what I'm talking about, many or most of whom have never taken anything to induce it. The human body is a real mystery at times.

Yes, it is interesting! Sorry I took the piss - it's very rare for me to actually be quick enough to post a gif that relates to a previous post, so please forgive me. The lack of quickness may , in all honesty, be accounted for by my years of chemical research.....or maybe I'm a natural. Who knows at this stage? Suffice it to say - 70's baby met 90's parties.

I'm not against the idea of connectivity at all, and like yourself have no spiritual beliefs. Rather, I'm more inclined to like the idea of quantum stuff that science hasn't yet discovered (hence, calling it "stuff") being the basis for a whole new way of understanding how we link up with life, the universe and everything. However, I'm just as prepared to go with the notion that a feeling of connectivity occurs in a kind of deja vu way - like scientist are purporting at the mo (there are clever people reading this, with links i hope - not lazy - have to put dinner on table, sorry) about the consciousness being one step behind our actual decision making process (or instinct, if you like). I don't know. Expand, someone. It would be interesting if I knew something about it, eh?!

nagirrac

Obliq wrote: »

I'm not against the idea of connectivity at all, and like yourself have no spiritual beliefs. Rather, I'm more inclined to like the idea of quantum stuff that science hasn't yet discovered (hence, calling it "stuff") being the basis for a whole new way of understanding how we link up with life, the universe and everything. However, I'm just as prepared to go with the notion that a feeling of connectivity occurs in a kind of deja vu way - like scientist are purporting at the mo (there are clever people reading this, with links i hope - not lazy - have to put dinner on table, sorry) about the consciousness being one step behind our actual decision making process (or instinct, if you like). I don't know. Expand, someone. It would be interesting if I knew something about it, eh?!

There are no spiritual beliefs Obliq, there are only spiritual ideas

Sounds like you desire some serious quantum / relativity headwrecking. I would recommend contemplating the block universe, which basically states that the passage of time is an illusion created by our consciousness. If you suscribe to it then you have to accept that the universe is eternal, as in has no beginning or end, and just is. Past, present and future all exist as one in a space-time continuum and it is just our brains that limit us to remembering the past. In a block universe remembering the future is just as valid.

I would recommend the Andrew Thomas site which is the bottom link if you want to immerse yourself in the science, the top link is an article by Paul Davies which is a good introduction.

http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/reality_mysterious_flow.asp

http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/

Obliq

nagirrac wrote: »

There are no spiritual beliefs Obliq, there are only spiritual ideas

Sounds like you desire some serious quantum / relativity headwrecking.

I have no desires beyond my own life and as many questions I can put to it/answers I can reasonably expect to get nagirrac!

I would recommend contemplating the block universe, which basically states that the passage of time is an illusion created by our consciousness. If you suscribe to it then you have to accept that the universe is eternal, as in has no beginning or end, and just is.

Ok, thanks. "Have to accept" and "subscribe to" doesn't sit well with me, but how'ndeva...

Past, present and future all exist as one in a space-time continuum and it is just our brains that limit us to remembering the past. In a block universe remembering the future is just as valid.

*coughs loudly, and searches frantically for ground on which to stand wisely*

I would recommend the Andrew Thomas site which is the bottom link if you want to immerse yourself in the science, the top link is an article by Paul Davies which is a good introduction.

http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/reality_mysterious_flow.asp

http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/

Cheers. The science would want to be very interesting, to many clever people for my liking. Just so I can say, Yay! There's some new, well thought out and peer reviewed ideas here!

nagirrac

Obliq wrote: »

Cheers. The science would want to be very interesting, to many clever people for my liking. Just so I can say, Yay! There's some new, well thought out and peer reviewed ideas here!

The supporting science is very interesting, its Einstein's special theory of relativity. Along with QM arguably the two most solid scientific theories in history, that have been validated by every experiment done so far and resist every attempt to falsify them. According to most cosmologists I have read, the block universe view is the only one that is consistent with special relativity and furthermore state that physicists that argue against it are in denial. It is a bit similar to QM where what the scientific experiments are telling us is that the fundamental particles that make up our reality have no defined properties until we measure them and when we measure them the properties they exhibit are entirely random.

I suppose we just have to accept it and get on with our 3-D lives

biko

Sarky wrote: »

<sounds of bag of cats being trampled by parade of lawnmowers>

Oi, don't be messing with John Denver :mad:

Cork boy 55

Sarky wrote: »

Jesus! Hand in your atheist licence, kid.

Please

(1) don't edit my posts
(2) don't insult John Denver

Thank you

Sarky

Hey, it's not my fault his voice is like nails across the blackboard of any thinking human being's soul.

nagirrac

If you can't get your spiritual on to this.. saw them 2 weeks ago on the same tour, simply transcendent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF1rTktaD_w

sbsquarepants

ThirdMan wrote: »

I've had a number of experiences in the past that I'd call spiritual (although spiritual means different things to different people). The first few times it was while I was on LSD. But then I began to have them without having to induce it. It's a little hard to explain, but it's mostly just an overwhelming feeling that you're connected to everything. I didn't think there was something 'out there' or anything like that. I guess I just recognised myself as being part of something bigger, like evolution, the universe, life, whatever. And of course we are a part of all those things. But I became acutely aware of how significant that was, and it floored me. I also started to have these hallucinations about music, art, literature, etc. I got a real sense of how all of these things are connected, and that by engaging with this stuff I was somehow connected to people from all over the world. It's a beautiful feeling. It's almost impossible to describe it without using words like wonder, space, together. I know that sounds a bit soppy but it's true.

As I said, the first few times I was on LSD, but I've also had similar experiences later in life. There's no hallucinations, but the 'feeling' is there. It happens very infrequently, but it only happens when I'm listening to music, or swimming in the sea. Something like that. I'm sure some people will just say "ah that stuff is messing with your head..." And yeah, I guess they're right. I mean that's the whole point of taking LSD. But I'd love to know how it's messing with my head, because it's the most powerful thing I've ever felt, and I honestly believe there are strong parallels between psychedelic and mystical experiences. I know Sam Harris writes on this topic as well. He speaks far more eloquently than I do, so maybe check him out if you're interested in exploring it in the context of atheism or whatever.

I know exactly the feeling you describe and it fascinates me also.
"Reality" as we know it is merely our perception of it with the senses we have at our disposal. Reality for a bat is very different to us, for a shark it's different again.
When under the influence of things like LSD or pscilocibin "reality" is very different - but does that make it any less "real". I always use the argument that if there was psilocibin in everyday fruit and veg - we'd see the world that way all the time and it would be normal reality by default. With my normal evolved senses i can't detect UV or IR, doesn't mean it's not everywhere i look, i just can't detect it.

Tombo2001

Ok I will look at this from another angle.....

What is the Human Spirit.....?

According to Wiki:

"The Human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology and religion - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity."

If that is the human spirit, then what is spirituality.....

nozzferrahhtoo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

What is spirtuality then......?

I have written on this a few times to people essentially asking the same thing as you are.

Often a lot of the issue people like yourself have answering this is a linguistic one. People simply have no word better than "spiritual" to communicate what they are saying so they fall back on that word despite the metaphysical nonsense and baggage it brings.

I think many people who try to explore the human condition in ways above and beyond that experienced by your average joe on the street are likely to consider themselves "Spiritual". Mindfullness Meditation such as Vipassana is one example of this but there are many more.

An exploration of what it "means" to be human... what our moral and ethical concerns are to our fellow man, animal and our planet... what it means to be "happy" and "content" and "fulfilled".... whether those concepts always require input such as having ones favorite ice cream on ones lips when one wants or whether it is possible to be happy and content before any such input.... and exploring our connection as humans to our environment and planet and trying to see ourselves as part of the bigger picture rather than a sole ego and individual.... and an exploration of the ways and methods of training our moment to moment awareness and maybe even influencing or perturbing it consciously.....

... all these things I think fall under the category of "Spiritual" for many people and we do not really have other words for it that communicate what we want to communicate when talking about them.

So I do have some sympathy for atheists and others who feel compelled to use the phrase "Spiritual but not religious" to describe where they are at. I feel in many ways their hands, and mine, are tied linguistically to have to make some concession to words like that.

sbsquarepants

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So I do have some sympathy for atheists and others who feel compelled to use the phrase "Spiritual but not religious" to describe where they are at. I feel in many ways their hands, and mine, are tied linguistically to have to make some concession to words like that.

I think we are basically so far from understanding what is the nature of existence that it appears to many to be magical, in the same way as primitive people might view modern technology as magical. Religions tend to exploit this to their own end, it's so complicated that only god could have done it, now can i have some money please:).
I don't believe god done it, for the (blindingly obvious) reason that if he made all this stuff, then where did he come from? That's atheism in a nut shell for me!
When you come right down to it, i have no idea what i am or how i got here - i am a collection of trillions of small parts, each and every one billions of years old at least, none of which are "alive" or conscious by any normal definition of the terms - yet somehow they conspired to make me and everything around me, some small part of me was most likely once a part of Julius Ceasar, another part was once part of a T rex and so on. When i die, they'll make someone else or maybe a frog or a tulip. So what they hell was the thing that is "me" It's easy to see why people give up and say "only god can know these things" We definitely are all connected somehow, it's the nature of the connection i simply don't understand. Maybe it's beyond us as a species?
It's a bloody strange one, that's for damn sure!

Tombo2001

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Often a lot of the issue people like yourself have answering this is a linguistic one. People simply have no word better than "spiritual" to communicate what they are saying so they fall back on that word despite the metaphysical nonsense and baggage it brings.

I think many people who try to explore the human condition in ways above and beyond that experienced by your average joe on the street are likely to consider themselves "Spiritual". Mindfullness Meditation such as Vipassana is one example of this but there are many more.

An exploration of what it "means" to be human... what our moral and ethical concerns are to our fellow man, animal and our planet... what it means to be "happy" and "content" and "fulfilled".... whether those concepts always require input such as having ones favorite ice cream on ones lips when one wants or whether it is possible to be happy and content before any such input.... and exploring our connection as humans to our environment and planet and trying to see ourselves as part of the bigger picture rather than a sole ego and individual.... and an exploration of the ways and methods of training our moment to moment awareness and maybe even influencing or perturbing it consciously.....

... all these things I think fall under the category of "Spiritual" for many people and we do not really have other words for it that communicate what we want to communicate when talking about them.

So I do have some sympathy for atheists and others who feel compelled to use the phrase "Spiritual but not religious" to describe where they are at. I feel in many ways their hands, and mine, are tied linguistically to have to make some concession to words like that.

Another way of looking at it is this:

I am made up of three elements.

Body, mind, spirit.

My Body I nurture through sport, through massage, through healthy eating. In other words I play sport because I enjoy it, but also because its good for my body.

My mind I nurture through reading, travelling. I read because I enjoy it, but also because its good for my mind.

My spirit I nurture through what......? There's nothing I can say I do for the sheer purpose of nurturing my spirit......if that makes sense......what does one do......what do other people do......

Obviously religion. But if not religion, then what.

nozzferrahhtoo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Another way of looking at it is this:

I am made up of three elements.

Body, mind, spirit.

I think the crux of my post was to suggest that the third thing in that list is superfluous. It is just another aspect of mind.

What I am getting at is that when we explore what we unfortunately end up calling "spirituality" we are exploring aspects of mind.... or exploring mind from angles..... that are above and beyond what the average joe soap on the street is doing / experiencing.

What it means to be sentient for example is all "Mind". This "spirit" word is superfluous. But we can ask questions about what that means.... whether we feel it morally or ethically asks anything of us.

Or we can explore using or training our moment to moment attention in ways where we do a little more than living in the past and planning for the future but we instead explore the present moment.

What does it actually mean to be "happy" and does being happy always require some external input like money, sex, being loved, roller coaster rides, nice food or is it possible to attain happiness from an internal project.

Exploring our place in the universe and seeing ourselves as part of an interconnected whole... and asking what implications that actually has for us.

And so on. The list is very long indeed but for me it is all "Body Mind". The word "spirit" is either superfluous and not required.... or it is a subset of the "mind" category.

To "nurture" that section just engage in all the things I listed above. Meditate. Learn. Experiment. Ask questions and explore them. Investigate methodologies of attaining happiness that are more introspective than from external input. Ascertain, influence and be influenced by your place in the universe.

Perhaps the reason you feel a hole that needs to be nurtured is not because you have not been nurturing it but there IS nothing there to nurture. The entire third category is something you might feel is there, want to be there, or think should be there. However there is no reason to think it is.

nagirrac

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't believe god done it, for the (blindingly obvious) reason that if he made all this stuff, then where did he come from? That's atheism in a nut shell for me!

It's only an obvious question though if you think in terms of the passage of time. The question "where did it all come from?" is a paradox of the human mind, regardless of whether you consider God or not. What was there before the big bang, etc?

One answer is the block universe where the question just goes away. It also takes away a strong argument for atheism, as you alluded to above, as the atheist premise is largely built on the passage of time from the big bang, through the formation of galaxies and stars, through the earliest life forms and all the way to us, or evolution of inorganic matter to organic matter to life. The way many physicists think of time is that it is all laid out in its entirety, a "timescape just like a landscape", where you think of time stretched through the universe like the 3 space dimensions. Time does not pass or flow at all in this model. Another way to think about it is that everything that ever happened or everything that will ever happen is "somewhere" and "somewhen" in a static universe.

This doesn't provide any answer to the God question either, but its a fascinating way to think about the universe.