Irish Rail mismanagement: why do they run 4-carriage DARTs at rush hour?

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The rail will never be gone. Even if the government pulled all funding and Irish Rail ceased all operations tomorrow, a private operator would fill the void quick enough, even if it was only to run the Cork-Dublin, Belfast-Dublin and DARTs.

DART and commuter rail definitely.

Intercity I wouldn't be so sure, maybe. It is very expensive to run it and it is facing lots of competition from the motorway. So a private company would have to run a very lean operation, with low ticket prices.

But if it meant rail survived and thrived, then it would certainly be welcome.

Michael D Not Higgins

bk wrote: »

DART and commuter rail definitely.

Intercity I wouldn't be so sure, maybe. It is very expensive to run it and it is facing lots of competition from the motorway. So a private company would have to run a very lean operation, with low ticket prices.

But if it meant rail survived and thrived, then it would certainly be welcome.

It would be a lean operation. You could concentrate all the maintenance work on those core routes and if it becomes viable over time, you could open more routes.

(Although that could get more expensive in the long run as I don't know what the maintenance costs of upkeep of a disused line against completely renewing a disused line that has had no maintenance on it.)

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

This is what would have to be done in the Irish network, upgrade longer sections for higher speeds. It's entirely plausible for 22000s or even Mark 4s to do the Cork run in under 2 hours (without stopping), if the track is upgraded.

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

Unfortunately the UK and Irish markets are very different.

Typically longer distances in the UK, with much larger cities at either end and a great deal of traffic congestion on the motorways. The big cities also tend to run up the length of the country.

Ireland you have only one large city (Dublin), which is at the centre of the country and the other cities (really towns in comparison to the UK) radiate out from there. Add to that the motorways are congestion free.

It means rail faces much greater modal competition then in the UK and high rail ticket prices just wouldn't work here in Ireland like they do in the UK.

Michael D Not Higgins

Indeed there is a greater draw of population for potential customers, but compare the Dublin-Cork belt with the Central Belt in Scotland, similar populations. Granted, the two main population centres of the Central Belt, Edinburgh and Glasgow, are only 50 miles apart but they have three separate lines connecting them with a plan to build a high speed line.

davidlacey

what i dont get is, as i sit on a dart at 14 25 on the way to bray, why on earth am i sitting on an full dart set? the carriages are empty...

KD345

davidlacey wrote: »

what i dont get is, as i sit on a dart at 14 25 on the way to bray, why on earth am i sitting on an full dart set? the carriages are empty...

I'm assuming that train will remain in service during peak hours. While you might be on it at 14.25, on it's return journey from Bray, it'll be hitting peak time hours and those extra carriages will be required.

suicide_circus

Ok so the argument is that they save money by running 4 carriages at peak times? But then why are they running 6/8 carriages at off peak times? Why dont they swap it around - run the short trains off peak and the longer ones at busy times, how would that cost more?
I'm obviously not privy to some key information here because the current practice as outlines by the OP is truly baffling.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

Already been done.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

No, I meant this when you said:

"parking up some 22000s, shorter DARTs, etc."

And with etc. I would add doubling intercity fares at peak times, 3 carriage 22k's to Cork, etc.

Rationalising staff costs would be a very good thing IMO.

In the age of leap, online bookings, TVM's, etc. are ticket sales staff even needed? Sure maybe one ticket seller/customer service person in Connolly, Tara and Hueston, but certainly they aren't needed at most DART stations.

Any time I take the DART, I never see them actually selling any tickets, they just look bored and reading the paper.

You would think maybe at least turn the ticket kiosks into mini shops selling sweets, coffee, sandwiches, etc. At least get some revenue for the staff cost.

I take it that you dont use Connolly station much. Have a look tomorrow afternoon and see if one person is enough.
At the moment Irish Rail are understaffed believe it or not.

end of the road

TheLB wrote: »

Sending Dart carriages to a country town at rushhour is a waste of resources tbh. There is a intercity to Greystones at 17.38.

that train is packed enough as it is, we don't want passengers who could easily get the dart thanks, the dart is serving the other stations the intercity doesn't all though it would be nice if the intercity was given priority but theirs more chance of the west cork railway re-opening then that happening (otherwise known as no chance)

corktina

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It would be a lean operation. You could concentrate all the maintenance work on those core routes and if it becomes viable over time, you could open more routes.

(Although that could get more expensive in the long run as I don't know what the maintenance costs of upkeep of a disused line against completely renewing a disused line that has had no maintenance on it.)

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

This is what would have to be done in the Irish network, upgrade longer sections for higher speeds. It's entirely plausible for 22000s or even Mark 4s to do the Cork run in under 2 hours (without stopping), if the track is upgraded.

I don't think non stop trains are the market. The market is traffic to and from Dublin and Cork from intermediate points.... I'd suggest that through traffic is in the minority (IMHO

devnull

With due respect BK, I'd agree with Hilly Bill on this one, they need a fair few more staff than one at Connolly station. I used it at peak times for around a year at one point and it would be chaos with just one person.

bk

devnull wrote: »

With due respect BK, I'd agree with Hilly Bill on this one, they need a fair few more staff than one at Connolly station. I used it at peak times for around a year at one point and it would be chaos with just one person.

Fair enough at the busy city centre stations, but I don't think I've seen the ticket selling staff at Clontarf Road or Sandycove sell a ticket in years.

Now not saying they don't ever, but I honestly don't think their constant presence is required.

Instead why not turn the ticket offices into shops and require the shop staff to also sell rail tickets, like shops sell Dublin Bus tickets?

Irish Rail gain rent from the shop and reduce staff costs.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Fair enough at the busy city centre stations, but I don't think I've seen the ticket selling staff at Clontarf Road or Sandycove sell a ticket in years.

Now not saying they don't ever, but I honestly don't think their constant presence is required.

Instead why not turn the ticket offices into shops and require the shop staff to also sell rail tickets, like shops sell Dublin Bus tickets?

Irish Rail gain rent from the shop and reduce staff costs.

Its like that already bk, some of the quieter stops are unmanned at certain times of the day for various reasons like staff rosters , covering somewhere else etc.
Irish rail get rent from the shops that are already in most of these places already.

BenShermin

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

jkbrgs

BenShermin wrote: »

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

Greystones is no "country town". There's only a small amount of standing room available at 7 and 8am before the Dart even leaves Greystones.

MGWR

jkbrgs wrote: »

BenShermin wrote: »

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

Greystones is no "country town". There's only a small amount of standing room available at 7 and 8am before the DART even leaves Greystones.

Greystones is County Wicklow's second most populous town and no small suburb of Dublin. Aside from the DART extension there, new link roads to/from the N11 have been built, highlighting the town's importance, never mind the work on the R761. Greystones' population is higher than that of Maynooth, and there appears to be a prevailing opinion that Maynooth is somehow a more worthy DART terminus. (Greystones' population is even higher than Leixlip's, and Leixlip has two train stations and three separate Dublin Bus routes serving it.)

BTW, before the DART, there used to be 13 stations between Greystones and Connolly, with Shankill being added some years prior to DART's inauguration. And Tara Street wasn't even open full-time during those years, being completely closed on weekends.

davidlacey

would it not make sense to have one person designated per small station as is the case in sandycove and actually be involved in cleaning the station and actually take pride in it as if it is theirs, i understand there is a big union is behind them but its common sense, there is no pride put into many stations and it gives IE a bad name!Its better than having them sitting there reading the paper as is the case in many stations and in some cases a person buying a ticket is a nuisance...

bk

BenShermin wrote: »

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

That sounds more like an issue that should be solved by upgrading the online booking system and TVM's to support such tickets.

Decuc500

I read on twitter yesterday that people on a 4 carriage northbound malahide dart in evening rush hour were told to get off the train and wait for the next one as it was too overcrowded.

So is that the way it is now, put on half sized darts in rush hour leaving half the fleet sitting idle in Fairview depot and strand people on platforms?

Hilly Bill

BenShermin wrote: »

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

Its worse when you throw in a train full of social welfare pass holders going up north.

goingnowhere

Signalling fault at Greystones yesterday messed things up

When its running on/close to time and nothing has gone wrong, I've never had a problem with the 4 coach trains in peak, never been left behind

I do find one end of the train to be much busier than the other

jkbrgs

goingnowhere wrote: »

Signalling fault at Greystones yesterday messed things up

When its running on/close to time and nothing has gone wrong, I've never had a problem with the 4 coach trains in peak, never been left behind

I do find one end of the train to be much busier than the other

I got caught up in that yesterday. At Connolly, we were told there was a signal fault and that trains were suspended between Bray and Greystones. By the time I got to Bray, they were apparently running again with a 15 minute delay. We waited over 15 minutes for the next train to Greystones - and in doing so missed the half-hourly bus - and only when the train arrived in Bray did they bother to announce that it was in fact suspended.

I'm used to this from IÉ but it was pathetic.

schemingbohemia

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Already been done.

Sorry but what pay cut to core pay has been made to IE staff? I'm not talking about reductions in overtime or allowances, core pay.

Hilly Bill

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sorry but what pay cut to core pay has been made to IE staff? I'm not talking about reductions in overtime or allowances, core pay.

7%.

MGWR

jkbrgs wrote: »

I got caught up in that yesterday. At Connolly, we were told there was a signal fault and that trains were suspended between Bray and Greystones. By the time I got to Bray, they were apparently running again with a 15 minute delay. We waited over 15 minutes for the next train to Greystones - and in doing so missed the half-hourly bus - and only when the train arrived in Bray did they bother to announce that it was in fact suspended.

I'm used to this from IÉ but it was pathetic.

Seems to be the wrong focus at IE. Big rush to replace Mark 3s and buy Intercity DMUs while ignoring the infrastructure and signalling as well as maintenance. They even closed the suburban lines on weekends specifically to have eight-car DARTs run full time and instead they chop the trains clean in half for no reason. Also a mad dash for new paint schemes. I'd honestly rather ride in orange-painted Mark 3s (or even the four-decade old Cravens) hauled by 071s or 201s these days and have working signalling than ride in any Rotem DMU and be stuck somewhere due to broken signalling. (Shoulda painted the 8100s orange and black as well.)

dowlingm

As I noted elsewhere, it's always hard to divine what is going on in State companies at the best of times. I don't think it's fair to say IE did nothing about the infrastructure in the last few years. There has been a huge reduction in signal boxes with 100 year old signalling replaced on the Kerry line in addition to the construction of KRP, Ennis-Athenry and Clonsilla-Pace. We could all want more, I do, and faster, but let's not pretend nothing has improved. The Mark 3 issue has been done to death before.

In respect of the matter at hand, DART needs to become truly part of Dublin transportation and ideally would be hived off to be operated by a "Transport for Dublin" sort of entity with a mandate for public accountability including no FOIA exemptions except those common on similar systems. Toronto runs 6 car subway cars all day every day when at least some could be split. Want to know why? They calculated that the amount of time required to marshal them in and out of shorter sets cost more than the extra power consumed to haul emptier trains. Presumably DART made similar calculations but as part of CIE they will only tell you about it if they feel like it.

bk

Yes, I believe Irish Rail made a big mistake only being able to operate either 4 carriage or 8 carriage sets.

I think it would be much easier if they could form 6 carriage sets. They could probably run 6 carriage sets all day at quieter times of the year. Might be a little crowded at peak time, but much better then a 4 carriage set, while still gaining fuel savings over an 8 carriage set off peak.

I'm not surprised they found this in Toronto, staff wages are by far the biggest cost with any company, fuel (including electricity for DART) only makes up 8% of Irish Rails costs. So they really aren't saving much by doing this.

Jamie2k9

Yes, I believe Irish Rail made a big mistake only being able to operate either 4 carriage or 8 carriage sets.

I think it would be much easier if they could form 6 carriage sets. They could probably run 6 carriage sets all day at quieter times of the year. Might be a little crowded at peak time, but much better then a 4 carriage set, while still gaining fuel savings over an 8 carriage set off peak.

I'm not surprised they found this in Toronto, staff wages are by far the biggest cost with any company, fuel (including electricity for DART) only makes up 8% of Irish Rails costs. So they really aren't saving much by doing this.

They run a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car sets.

MGWR wrote: »

Seems to be the wrong focus at IE. Big rush to replace Mark 3s and buy Intercity DMUs while ignoring the infrastructure and signalling as well as maintenance. They even closed the suburban lines on weekends specifically to have eight-car DARTs run full time and instead they chop the trains clean in half for no reason. Also a mad dash for new paint schemes. I'd honestly rather ride in orange-painted Mark 3s (or even the four-decade old Cravens) hauled by 071s or 201s these days and have working signalling than ride in any Rotem DMU and be stuck somewhere due to broken signalling. (Shoulda painted the 8100s orange and black as well.)

The whole netwrok had signals replacments between 2000 and 2005 and DCC was being completed before they had to stop because of financial problems. Railway lines for most routes are under 15 years only with Dublin-Cork all replaced over the last few years and for the level of service on them thats not very old. Then there is the cost of getting automatic level crossings which have cost them approx 5 million alone on Waterford line. Many farm crossings have being replaced by bridges which the farmers didn't pay for...

steamengine

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They run a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car sets.

The last few sets I've seen off-peak have indeed been 6 car sets, presumably the original 8100 class.