Mrs Mary McGee and her spermicidal jelly.

Morag

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/anniversary-of-family-planning-case-brings-a-sense-of-d%C3%A9j%C3%A0-vu-1.1382006?page=1

The generation that takes Durex in the local Spar for granted may not know that 2013 is the 40th anniversary of a legal case that won them the right to use contraception. In 1973, 27-year-old Mary McGee challenged Ireland’s ban on family planning.

A mother of four children, she had complications in her previous pregnancy and was told that having another child would put her life in danger. On medical advice, she ordered spermicidal jelly from England (a criminal offence at the time) but it never arrived because of the amazing vigilance of Irish Customs who seized her package.

“I got a letter to say that because of the prohibition, my package wasn’t allowed in. I couldn’t believe it,” says McGee, sitting in her kitchen at home in Skerries recounting the story. “I just thought ‘no way, I have to do something about this’, not realising the enormity of what I was taking on. I think we were all ready for change though. People wanted children but they also wanted a life.” She took her case to the Supreme Court and won.

Mad to think if she and her husband hadn't of been brave enough to take the case all the way, how much longer it would have taken to make contraception legal here. Still the 1973 ruling only made it legal for married couples by prescription, it wasn't until 1983 it was extended to un married people and it was only 1994 condoms became over the counter and eventually in vending machines and shops.

So thank you Mary McGee for fighting for your spermicidal jelly and the right it eventually gave all of us.

lazygal

Irish women had the most irregular cycles in the world, I recall reading. Mad how so many women needed their cycles regulating and got the pill.

Damn wimmins, saying they something for one reason, but actually using it for another, like reproductive freedom.

wolfpawnat

It took a brave women to go against Catholic Ireland in the 70's. I don't think younger people these days realise what other generations went through, my poor nan gave birth to 14 children including two sets of twins! She loves her children, but when she finally got a hysterectomy she was a happy woman! And she nearly died before she got it!

krudler

Its utterly insane that contraception was illegal here, 1994 isnt that long ago, and yet this country is still so backwards in so many ways. a country that has a blasphemy law in 2013 deserves to be ridiculed.

wolfpawnat

krudler wrote: »

Its utterly insane that contraception was illegal here, 1994 isnt that long ago, and yet this country is still so backwards in so many ways. a country that has a blasphemy law in 2013 deserves to be ridiculed.

When you think about it, the last Magdalene laundry closed in 1996. I was 9-10 years old. That was less than 20 years ago.

We are so lucky these days there are so many to choose from and that we women can choose whatever we want to suit ourselves.

syklops

krudler wrote: »

Its utterly insane that contraception was illegal here, 1994 isnt that long ago, and yet this country is still so backwards in so many ways. a country that has a blasphemy law in 2013 deserves to be ridiculed.

And abortion is still illegal. The new bill would not have saved Savita.

kylith

lazygal wrote: »

Irish women had the most irregular cycles in the world, I recall reading. Mad how so many women needed their cycles regulating and got the pill.

Damn wimmins, saying they something for one reason, but actually using it for another, like reproductive freedom.

And every one of them engaged as soon as they left home according to my mother, the lucky girls.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It took a brave women to go against Catholic Ireland in the 70's. I don't think younger people these days realise what other generations went through, my poor nan gave birth to 14 children including two sets of twins! She loves her children, but when she finally got a hysterectomy she was a happy woman! And she nearly died before she got it!

One of my grandmothers ended her life bedridden, and I honestly believe that it was because of the number of children she'd had, a few were lost in infancy, but I think it was about 10 in all. I've started to think recently that she probably had a sympisiotomy, as one of the babies was over 14lb in weight and would almost certainly have needed medical help to birth, this being before things like caesarians would have been carried out.

krudler

wolfpawnat wrote: »

When you think about it, the last Magdalene laundry closed in 1996. I was 9-10 years old. That was less than 20 years ago.

We are so lucky these days there are so many to choose from and that we women can choose whatever we want to suit ourselves.

Yeah, someone my mother knows was in one, doesn't talk about it much for obvious reasons.

wolfpawnat

kylith wrote: »

One of my grandmothers ended her life bedridden, and I honestly believe that it was because of the number of children she'd had, a few were lost in infancy, but I think it was about 10 in all. I've started to think recently that she probably had a sympisiotomy, as one of the babies was over 14lb in weight and would almost certainly have needed medical help to birth, this being before things like caesarians would have been carried out.

My poor nan is 92 next month. Not sure how many pregnancies she had. But 14 live natural births including 2 sets of twins. She is the greatest woman I know! She thinks these days we are mad if we don't look after ourselves. She nearly died after trying to give birth to her last (baby didn't survive) and it was frowned upon to give her the hysterectomy! Saved her life, another baby would have finished the job!

gcgirl

It be as a harsh world for our granny's, your whole purpose of live was to obey your husband and drop kids like it's going out of fashion and it was a case of lying back and thinking of Ireland! Hell would be the most appropriate word

eviltwin

I wonder where she is now? I didn't actually realise the ban was overturned on the basis of a court case brought by someone. Mary, where ever you are, I thank you for your courage. You're actions have helped generations of women and for that I salute you.

Frito

"I got a letter to say that because of the prohibition, my package wasn't allowed in".

Should've told customs that Rowntree had brought out a new flavour.

Seriously though, we should all be grateful to her. And there's hope for full reproductive rights even if it frustratingly moves in degrees.

helimachoptor

My mam has 18 brothers and sisters....

grey_so_what

Good Evening Ladies,

I'm a newbie to the LL,

I lived those heady (albeit the 80') days. I wouldn't even want to go back to thinking to some of the dealing's I've had with Doctors. Simple things nowadays, you wouldn't believe some of the comments I listened to from same.

It's times like these I believe the men and politicians still have the key to the chastity belt/Guilt factor for the want of a better expression.

Just my humble opinion.

GSW:)

Stheno

krudler wrote: »

Its utterly insane that contraception was illegal here, 1994 isnt that long ago, and yet this country is still so backwards in so many ways. a country that has a blasphemy law in 2013 deserves to be ridiculed.

I was in college in 1991 when you'd to sneak into the students union to get condoms!

What struck me about that article is the timeframes, 21 years for both X and this case

gcgirl

My 17 year old self marched into the Chemist and bought a box of condoms for my friend's birthday that was 92 and I seriously could not give a **** even told my mum what I did I thought I was amazing :-)

Malari

I remember doing work experience as a teenager in the mid-90s and going into a chemist to buy condoms for a girl in her 20s who I was working with. She was too embarrassed. I just walked in with a "yeah, that's right, I'm having sex" attitude :cool:. I didn't even use one myself for another couple of years

I can't believe they weren't always so readily available. It's mind-numbing

LittleBook

Malari wrote: »

I can't believe they weren't always so readily available. It's mind-numbing

Anyone remember the "Sisters - 40 Years of Change for Irish Women" back in 2010? I can't find the original but have the text from an old post of mine.

10 Things an Irish Woman Could Not Do in 1970 (and when it was legally changed)

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
2. Sit on a jury (1976 - by court decision)
3. Buy contraceptives (1985)
4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
5. Collect her children's allowance (1974)
6. Get a barring order against a violent partner (1976/1981)
7. Live securely in her family home (i.e. her husband could sell it without her consent) (1976)
8. Refuse to have sex with her husband (1990!)
9. Choose her official place of domicile (1985)
10. Get the same rate for the same job as a man (1974/1977)[/quote]

* [Nell McCafferty] and a group of women once went into a Dublin pub and ordered 31 brandies. When their drinks were lined up on the bar, they ordered a pint of Guinness. "He refused to serve, we refused to pay," she says. They drank the brandies and walked out.

Malari

LittleBook wrote: »

Anyone remember the "Sisters - 40 Years of Change for Irish Women" back in 2010? I can't find the original but have the text from an old post of mine.

10 Things an Irish Woman Could Not Do in 1970 (and when it was legally changed)

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
2. Sit on a jury (1976 - by court decision)
3. Buy contraceptives (1985)
4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
5. Collect her children's allowance (1974)
6. Get a barring order against a violent partner (1976/1981)
7. Live securely in her family home (i.e. her husband could sell it without her consent) (1976)
8. Refuse to have sex with her husband (1990!)
9. Choose her official place of domicile (1985)
10. Get the same rate for the same job as a man (1974/1977)

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
My mother remained in her public sector job when she married in 1976, although she was generally expected to give it up. Was this thoroughly enforced?

4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
Surely this wasn't enforced, as I'd had plenty of pints in many pubs by this time! I'd never heard of this one! :eek:

wolfpawnat

Rape was not something that occurred if you were married, that is terrfying to me.

I know we don't have everything these days, and that is wrong in the modern world, but we will get there and we have a lot more than our nans had.

Morag

Landlords had the right to refuse to serve us a pint, many didn't but some did.

The practice of insisting that women quit working in the civil service was dropped in practice before it was officially changed.

LittleBook

Malari wrote: »

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
My mother remained in her public sector job when she married in 1976, although she was generally expected to give it up. Was this thoroughly enforced?

4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
Surely this wasn't enforced, as I'd had plenty of pints in many pubs by this time! I'd never heard of this one! :eek:

The dates are when these things finally became legal/illegal . As you say, she was probably expected to give up her job but wasn't forced to. And trust me, I had many a pint before 2002

Dolbert

Malari wrote: »

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
My mother remained in her public sector job when she married in 1976, although she was generally expected to give it up. Was this thoroughly enforced?

Yes, it was enforced in a lot of cases. I used to work in public sector HR and you could see it on a lot of the old files. The women were paid a small gratuity but had to repay it if they rejoined the service once the ban was lifted.

Morag

It meant that if they were teachers and they married they had to quit their jobs.

I guess it meant the civil service felt it didn't have to worry about maternity leave.

Malari

Morag wrote: »

It meant that if they were teachers and they married they had to quit their jobs.

I guess it meant the civil service felt it didn't have to worry about maternity leave.

Yeah, she was a teacher. I must ask her again about it, because she worked for almost 2 years after marriage before she stopped to mind us babbies

I remember her telling me about doing a job interview for the school she worked in and being told (by friends, family, college lecturers) she'd never get the job because she went in a trouser suit! She did get the job, but obviously it was very much a time of changing attitudes.

WindSock

Malari wrote: »

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
My mother remained in her public sector job when she married in 1976, although she was generally expected to give it up. Was this thoroughly enforced?

My mam had to leave her civil service job in 1971 when she got married, but I though the marriage bar was lifted in '73?

4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
Surely this wasn't enforced, as I'd had plenty of pints in many pubs by this time! I'd never heard of this one! :eek:

Yeah deffo shenanigans on this one. Although it may not have been enforced in the places I frequented. I suppose I was an underage drinker too for some of it so it may have been a bit lax, but I have never heard of this law before. Certainly not in recent years.


Nell et al. should have opened up their own pub and called it The Marriage Bar :pac:

LittleBook

WindSock wrote: »

Yeah deffo shenanigans on this one.

The years relate to when these issue were finally, legally resolved, it's true

I found this article which is just a copy of the original IT article (which doesn't seem to be available anymore).

Ten Things An Irish Woman Could Not Do In 1970

Malari wrote: »

Yeah, she was a teacher

article wrote:

Female civil servants and other public servants (primary teachers from 1958 were excluded from the so-called "marriage bar") had to resign from their jobs when they got married, on the grounds that they were occupying a job that should go to a man. Banks operated a similar policy.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Rape was not something that occurred if you were married, that is terrfying to me.

article wrote:

It was not until 1990 that marital rape was defined as a crime. The first trial, in 1992, collapsed within minutes. The first successful prosecution for marital rape was in 2002.

Sorry if we're going OT a bit!

Ilyana 2.0

My Mum is from England and my Dad is from Ireland. My Mum has one sibling, my Dad had five - and his family was small at the time. Just goes to show how different the two countries are, considering their proximity to one another.

Fair dues to Mary McGee, she did Irish women a huge service.

WindSock

Ilyana 2.0 wrote: »

Fair dues to Mary McGee, she did Irish women a huge service.

And her glorious act gave birth to the expression 'How's your Gee?', in reference to not having your fanny not being bruised and battered by forcibly enduring multiple births.

Ilyana 2.0

WindSock wrote: »

And her glorious act gave birth to the expression 'How's your Gee?', in reference to not having your fanny not being bruised and battered by forcibly enduring multiple births.

Really? Never would have thought the expression had such significance....if that's true anyway :pac:

WindSock

Arr, prolly not. I think the term gee comes from Síle na Gigh, the stone fertility chicks that held their flaps open to the east and they predate our Mary.
Still though, I will say 'hows your gee in future with Mary* in mind'












*Mary McGee, not the other Mary as in another name for a gee.

Vojera

I know of a gp in Donegal (he used to be mine before I moved to Dublin) who still refuses to prescribe the pill to unmarried women! All the women from the town wait until his day off to see the locum or go to the female doctor in the next town over. It's 2013!!!

Ilyana 2.0

WindSock wrote: »

Arr, prolly not. I think the term gee comes from Síle na Gigh, the stone fertility chicks that held their flaps open to the east and they predate our Mary.
Still though, I will say 'hows your gee in future with Mary* in mind'

*Mary McGee, not the other Mary as in another name for a gee.

You really do learn something new everyday!

Scarinae

Attitudes were so conservative at the time that her husband James remembers being cross-examined in the witness box by a barrister who asked whether the McGees “would not consider living as brother and sister”.

This seems crazy to me, as if having children would be the only reason you could possibly want to have sex! I’m glad that times have changed, even if it was super slow.

My grandfather was a GP. My Dad said that some of Grandpa’s more conservative patients were disgusted that they would give out prescriptions for contraceptives, even though at the time (70s) it was only available for married couples.

kylith

Malari wrote: »

Yeah, she was a teacher. I must ask her again about it, because she worked for almost 2 years after marriage before she stopped to mind us babbies

I remember her telling me about doing a job interview for the school she worked in and being told (by friends, family, college lecturers) she'd never get the job because she went in a trouser suit! She did get the job, but obviously it was very much a time of changing attitudes.

People are still telling me this!

LittleBook

Vojera wrote: »

I know of a gp in Donegal (he used to be mine before I moved to Dublin) who still refuses to prescribe the pill to unmarried women!

And, as far as I know, he's not obliged to, even if he works for the HSE. Doctors and pharmacists are not obliged to prescribe contraception, emergency or otherwise, if they don't want to.

Here's another one ... emergency contraception wasn't licensed in Ireland until 2003! :eek:

It's only been available "over-the-counter" since 2011.

Vojera

LittleBook wrote: »

And, as far as I know, he's not obliged to, even if he works for the HSE. Doctors and pharmacists are not obliged to prescribe contraception, emergency or otherwise, if they don't want to.

Holy crap! I don't know what's more shocking to me, the fact that a gp still has that attitude or the fact that he's allowed to have it!

username123

Vojera wrote: »

Holy crap! I don't know what's more shocking to me, the fact that a gp still has that attitude or the fact that he's allowed to have it!

In fairness you are only ever paying a doctor for an "opinion". If you dont like his opinion, go elsewhere. The problem is that there may not be another doctor easily available.

Its mad though, I was having sex when condoms were not easily available in Ireland! You could get them in a chemist, but no vending machine. It was still quite stigmatised and some chemists would look at your left hand before serving them to you. Luckily, I had a swedish boyfriend who had army issued condoms from his years national service. Swedish army condoms, basic stuff! Shortly afterwards our students union put up a vending machine, the guards came in and put a cage over it, the engineering students cut a gap in the cage, the guards came back and arrested the head of the students union - mad times!!

lilmissprincess

Thats absolutely insane! What college was that?

eviltwin

Crazy stuff, hard to believe these all happened in my lifetime. I'm not that old! There are still changes needed though, there are some fertility clinics that will only treat married couples, the old attitudes are still hanging around.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Malari wrote: »

1. Keep her job in the public service or a bank when she got married (1977)
My mother remained in her public sector job when she married in 1976, although she was generally expected to give it up. Was this thoroughly enforced?

4. Drink a pint in a pub (2002)*
Surely this wasn't enforced, as I'd had plenty of pints in many pubs by this time! I'd never heart of this one! :eek:

My Granny was one of the first few women asked back to teach during the ban because of a lack of teachers. She was made leave when she married first though.

My mum got barred from a pub in the 70s for drinking a pint! They wouldn't serve her a pint so she ordered two half pints, took an empty pint glass and poured them in!

Apparently the women in my family were quite the rebels! :-D

username123

lilmissprincess wrote: »

Thats absolutely insane! What college was that?

It was DIT Kevin St.

I remember the students union head bought in loads of condoms, so many that he took a car load to Feile and sold them out of the back of the car at a pound a johnny!

They were fierce exciting times!

Back then the students union would provide abortion information too and I know of at least one case where they paid for the abortion and never asked for the money back - totally against the law too.

hollypink

LittleBook wrote: »

Here's another one ... emergency contraception wasn't licensed in Ireland until 2003! :eek:

I'm confused by that, I'm sure you could get the morning after pill when I was in college in the nineties?

sam34

hollypink wrote: »

I'm confused by that, I'm sure you could get the morning after pill when I was in college in the nineties?

you could. I know I took it in 1998.

username123

sam34 wrote: »

you could. I know I took it in 1998.

Did doctors not just give you a mega dose of one of the normal pills?

sam34

tbh, I don't know exactly what I got but the concept of the MAP was there and legal at the time.

I went to the college doctor to get it and the policy was for reception to ask females if they were there for the MAP, as one of the doctors refused to prescribe it, so they'd know which doc to send you to.

username123

I seem to remember you could get it in the doctors office itself but you couldnt get a prescription for it. Maybe thats what they meant by licensing it?

sam34

that's gas, that's exactly what happened, the gp gave
me the pills.

bizarre.

pwurple

eviltwin wrote: »

Crazy stuff, hard to believe these all happened in my lifetime. I'm not that old! There are still changes needed though, there are some fertility clinics that will only treat married couples, the old attitudes are still hanging around.

If you mean Napro clinics, their policy makes sense because of two things. Private and Catholic. It contradicts their belief system (as does IVF apparantly, so they don't offer that there either).

There are many other private clinics available to us here, so we are not in any way restricted from accessing those services.

hollypink

username123 wrote: »

I seem to remember you could get it in the doctors office itself but you couldnt get a prescription for it. Maybe thats what they meant by licensing it?

But then I dont understand the significance of citing the year it was licensed. Did that somehow make it more available? Either way there was a doctor's visit involved.

username123

hollypink wrote: »

But then I dont understand the significance of citing the year it was licensed. Did that somehow make it more available? Either way there was a doctor's visit involved.

Well it meant you could get it from the pharmacist like any normal medicine I suppose. There must be some significance in it.