Moderation of commuting and transport

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

No but at the same time I am a champion of free speech and that is what boards is about and if you don't like a post on here then unfortunately that is just the way forums go, you will read messages and meet people on forums which you have differing views to just like you will in daily life outside of boards.ie. They have just as much right to air their view as you and vice versa.

I'm a favour of giving someone the best information to make them an informed decision, for example if I travel abroad and I want to buy a train or bus ticket for somewhere and I ask for it and I get it, good, but if there are other options that may suit my needs better and the person outlines these to me, then that is even better and I'd really appreciate that.

I agreed with you in my earlier post. My only issue is when it all goes of topic, a bit like whats happening in this thread now. It started about moderation and turned into a mud slinging contest with none of it to do with moderation.

It short Devnull, im agreeing with you.

BenShermin

Personally I get the feeling that there's an element on this forum who will defend a certain method of travel in this country to the death. I also get the feeling that these people don't even use the method of travel they're defending, certainly not on a frequent basis anyway.

bk

Con Logue wrote: »

The other aspect is that we do not have unbridled and consequence free speech on this, or any forum. Site rules and libel laws apply and posting is a privilege, not a right.

Of course, but I've seen absolutely nothing in the examples that have been given so far and that certain people seem to be complaining about that are either against the rules of boards.ie or in any way libellous.

Discussing the price of a bus ticket or taxi ticket on the commuting & transport forum is 100% within the rules.

All I'm seeing here is certain people trying to close down discussions that they don't like.

Con Logue

bk wrote: »

Of course, but I've seen absolutely nothing in the examples that have been given so far and that certain people seem to be complaining about that are either against the rules of boards.ie or in any way libellous.

Discussing the price of a bus ticket or taxi ticket on the commuting & transport forum is 100% within the rules.

All I'm seeing here is certain people trying to close down discussions that they don't like.

Well I'm not trying to stop you bk. But I do reserve the right to call anything that is either inaccurate or lacking in the factual department if it is something I know about. And if I don't, I won't.

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Here we go. It didnt take long did it

LETS NOT GO THERE

Con Logue

bk wrote: »

Of course, but I've seen absolutely nothing in the examples that have been given so far and that certain people seem to be complaining about that are either against the rules of boards.ie or in any way libellous.

Discussing the price of a bus ticket or taxi ticket on the commuting & transport forum is 100% within the rules.

All I'm seeing here is certain people trying to close down discussions that they don't like.

Context my good chap. Devnull cited free speech. I simply pointed out that any speech on a privately owned bulletin board takes place within a legal and site mandated framework. I'm not that devious.

Hilly Bill

Victor wrote: »

LETS NOT GO THERE

I wasnt wrong though was i.

devnull

Con Logue wrote: »

Context my good chap. Devnull cited free speech. I simply pointed out that any speech on a privately owned bulletin board takes place within a legal and site mandated framework. I'm not that devious.

I'm not sure what legal issues have to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I'm aware there have been no legal issues with the discussions on this forum, but it would be nice if the moderators to clear up if there has been any legal requests made in relation to content being posted on here lately?

Freedom of speech is however directly related to the subject.

Con Logue

devnull wrote: »

I'm not sure what legal issues have to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I'm aware there have been no legal issues with the discussions on this forum, but it would be nice if the moderators to clear up if there has been any legal requests made in relation to content being posted on here lately?

Freedom of speech is however directly related to the subject.

Like I have said earlier, we are all free to speak within the law and the rules of this site. That's it. No other context than that. I don't see how this is an issue.

davidlacey

why cant we all just get along.....

corktina

have we come as far with this as we're going to? It's just degenerating into the usual stuff....

bk

Con Logue wrote: »

Well I'm not trying to stop you bk. But I do reserve the right to call anything that is either inaccurate or lacking in the factual department if it is something I know about. And if I don't, I won't.

Con, my comment wasn't directed at you.

Even though I might often disagree with you, I believe you are up for a good honest discussion and not trying to be disruptive and get threads closed, etc. And I respect that.

I also totally welcome you pointing out anything inaccurate I or anyone says. No one knows everything and what I love is seeing knowledgeable posters sharing their knowledge here. We all learn and grow from that.

dowlingm

Suggestion: since so many posters are incapable of using the search function and thus start many versions of the same argument, let's collapse C&T down to a small number of permanent threads

For example
"My favourite mode of transport is better than yours"
"I want a train built to Letterkenny/transatlantic flights from Waterford/a LUAS in Thurles and I don't care what it costs"
"How much does it cost to get from here to there and how long will it take"
"I've been fined/been clamped/been summonsed/want to do something other than what my ticket says I can"
"Taxis are/are not evil"
"Western Rail Corridor"

Maybe there could be a quarterly "suggest a new thread" thread with a poll but I think the ones above cover most of the output here.

More seriously, much of the heat in this forum is in part because of the opaqueness around Irish transport infrastructure planning and execution. So much "consultation" is pro forma, so many cutbacks and fare increases unquestioned because of "operational independence" and "commercial confidentiality".

Into this vacuum runs speculation based on varying amounts of fact between zero and quite a bit, often employing imperfect comparators from other jurisdictions simply because the information there is available to the public rather than hidden from even FOIA. There is thus certainty only rarely because there is no avenue to obtain answers about questions like 4 car DARTs at peak except the few insiders we have among us, who are rewarded with accusations of partiality. There is therefore little chance that contention will vanish from this thread because speculation is inherently frustrating, often even to the person speculating!

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Because its already done to the death and nothing new gets posted and especially when that thread ends up with a discussion about the different specifics and classes of the train and bus when all was asked was the price. If the OP has made it clear that they had their answer and not engaging further in the thread then that thread should be locked .

So, what you're saying is people will talk about things that you don't like? Because none of those things are against the rules.

This isn't a questions and answers pin board, it's a discussion board -- interisting stuff can come from threads that go beyond the OP's question and when the OP's question is answered, I'm still unclear what the harm is. If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you?

Con Logue

An interesting and revealing list where on more than one topic the unwary will be badgered out of it presumably because some public official will read the thread and give the goahead to the DART to Dingle. An entirely new route not duplicating the existing railway to Tralee of course, while retaining and expanding it, naturally. In case anyone is about to explode with anger at the previous two sentences I am taking the mick and am not seriously suggesting this.

In that Vein may I tongue in cheek suggest that a supplement to the charter be made listing the prepositions that provoke the wrath of some?


On another board on which I post they have a section called Dead Horses where certain issues that will provoke rows are left to canter around in a no resolution ever way without disrupting the flow of the main board. More seriously, could we nominate certain topics as just that?

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Because its already done to the death and nothing new gets posted and especially when that thread ends up with a discussion about the different specifics and classes of the train and bus when all was asked was the price. If the OP has made it clear that they had their answer and not engaging further in the thread then that thread should be locked .

So, what you're saying is people will talk about things that you don't like? Because none of those things are against the rules.

This isn't a questions and answers pin board, it's a discussion board -- interisting stuff can come from threads that go beyond the OP's question and when the OP's question is answered, I'm still unclear what the harm is. If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you?

Con Logue

monument wrote: »

So, what you're saying is people will talk about things that you don't like? Because none of those things are against the rules.

This isn't a questions and answers pin board, it's a discussion board -- interisting stuff can come from threads that go beyond the OP's question and when the OP's question is answered, I'm still unclear what the harm is. If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you?

Suggesting that a poster buggers off because legitimate concerns are raised about badgering and repetition isn't your finest hour Monument.

markpb

Con Logue wrote: »

Suggesting that a poster buggers off because legitimate concerns are raised about badgering and repetition isn't your finest hour Monument.

He has a point though. Moderators aren't here to made sure the conversations are interesting enough to keep Hilly Billy entertained, they're here to keep things civil. There's nothing forcing anyone to read or reply to any thread - if you feel it's run it's course, feel free to start your own (or go away).

I don't understand people complaining about circular argument in threads recently when it's the very same people who post in those threads and contribute to them going round and round. In a recent one, someone asked the price of a train ticket, foggy suggested the bus as an alternative and immediately the very people here complaining about badgering and repetition jumped in to start a other bus/train debate, the very type of debate that they're here comparing about now. What kind of moderation would it take to fix that?

Con Logue

markpb wrote: »

He has a point though. Moderators aren't here to made sure the conversations are interesting enough to keep Hilly Billy entertained, they're here to keep things civil. There's nothing forcing anyone to read or reply to any thread - if you feel it's run it's course, feel free to start your own (or go away).

I don't understand people complaining about circular argument in threads recently when it's the very same people who post in those threads and contribute to them going round and round. In a recent one, someone asked the price of a train ticket, foggy suggested the bus as an alternative and immediately the very people here complaining about badgering and repetition jumped in to start a other bus/train debate, the very type of debate that they're here comparing about now. What kind of moderation would it take to fix that?

Simple. When the OP says thanks that is the time to close a question thread.

It's not rocket science. dowlingm also expressed a view about repetition but you don't see anyone suggesting that he too buggers off. All posters are equal but it seems some posters are more equal than others, and I'm not talking about dowlingm here.

markpb

Con Logue wrote: »

Simple. When the OP says thanks that is the time to close a question thread.

Why? Did board.ie turn into AskJeeves.com overnight? It's still a discussion forum, right?

It''s not rocket science. dowlingm also expressed a view about repetition but you don't see anyone suggesting that he too buggers off. All posters are equal but it seems some posters are more equal than others, and I'm not talking about dowlingm here.

If you're suggesting that some users break the rules in the charter, I presume you report them? I haven't seen any such rampant rule breaking, perhaps you're mistaking people disagreeing with you (repeatedly) as rule breaking?

Ironically, while dowlingm complained about repetition once, Hilly Billy has made the same point about repetition multiple times, both in this thread and in several others. I presume you have a problem with that too?

If you're bored with the bus/rail threads or if a question has been answered, why do you feel compelled to continue posting in them? Why not just ignore either the thread or the poster?

Conway635

For me, when I see a thread descend into the cycle of doom I just tune out and ignore it.

The problem with all sides in this is that everyone wants to have the last word.

In fact, a poster's gravitas and reputation is far better served by just ensuring that they have delivered the right information, answering any queries that result from their post, and then just stepping away if it turns into a "me me me" fight.

I've actually just read the Cor./Dublin ticket price thread in all its glory, and it reminds me of arguments I used to have with my wife, neither of us ever wanted to let the other have the last word.

We're divorced now :-)

C635

corktina

hmmm, it really is quite simple, if you don't want to be in a discussion, don't be.

You won't change anyones entrenched opinion by continuing the argument so instead of moaning about it, just stop reading the thread, or at least stop posting in it.

it's not trolling to have a legimate point of view and assert that in the
face of someone with an opposing point of view, it's a discussion.

It only gets to be a problem when someone throws their toys out of the pram or becomes uncivil. Too many times people have done just that and it is that that is the problem on C&T.... someone is losing an argeument so they resort to insults or accusations of trolling, or sometimes start trolling themselves!

monument

Con Logue wrote: »

Suggesting that a poster buggers off because legitimate concerns are raised about badgering and repetition isn't your finest hour Monument.

From now on you can keep it to your self what is and isn't my or anybody else's finest hour -- post constructively or don't bother. I don't accept this this you trying to be constructive, this is you hitting out at me because you're not getting your way.

This applies to anybody: If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you? If people can't remove them self and keep trying to cut off debate just because they don't like the debate, they will be cut off from this forum, permanently.

As markpb said; If you, Hilly Billy or anybody else is bored with the bus/rail threads or if a question has been answered, why not just ignore either the thread or the poster?

While this is a place for debate, nobody is forcing you to debate. More people need to sit back from the keyboard and relax (I know, sometimes I do).

BTW, re your deleted post: dowlingm, is clearly talking the piss when he's suggestion the forum should be kept to a small number of permanent threads.

HivemindXX

On the topic of closing threads. Am I alone in thinking that the original poster should have no implicit ownership of the thread they started?

Multiple times I've seen someone start a thread (ficticious example: what's the best way to get out of my fine for fare evasion) only to request the thread be closed because they don't like the way the discussion is going. In general this is granted. Is this a rule? If so I think it's a bad one.

If a moderator chooses to close a thread because it was a simple question asked and answered with no relevant discussion ongoing or because the thread has degenerated in to circular arguments then that's fine but I think the wishes of the original poster should have little or nothing to do with that decision.

monument

HivemindXX wrote: »

On the topic of closing threads. Am I alone in thinking that the original poster should have no implicit ownership of the thread they started?

Yes, to a large extent. Although, things should generally and with reason keep half on topic. Different story when a question is answered etc.

HivemindXX wrote: »

Multiple times I've seen someone start a thread (ficticious example: what's the best way to get out of my fine for fare evasion) only to request the thread be closed because they don't like the way the discussion is going. In general this is granted. Is this a rule? If so I think it's a bad one.

If a moderator chooses to close a thread because it was a simple question asked and answered with no relevant discussion ongoing or because the thread has degenerated in to circular arguments then that's fine but I think the wishes of the original poster should have little or nothing to do with that decision.

I don't follow the rule a thread should be "closed because they don't like the way the discussion is going" -- I don't think that's a great idea -- but sometimes I'll agree with the request because the thread has just got out of hand or gone on for long enough.

monument

Another problem we have had recently is reporting posts which are not breaking any rules.

We'll be asking people to stop this. The volume of such reported posts is now way too high and is a distraction to dealing with real issues.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

Another problem we have had recently is reporting posts which are not breaking any rules.
We'll be asking people to stop this. The volume of such reported posts is now way too high and is a distraction to dealing with real issues.

As per the PM I'll continue to report posts and threads I deem off topic or duplicates of other threads as per this line from the charter, it's up to you to act on them of course but to suggest users stop reporting posts they think are problematic is insulting.

Before posting please search recent posts to make sure, there is no duplicity of discussion for the sake of us all.

(C&T) and

If your thread does not conform to these topic-types, please post it in the main C&T or Infrastructure forums and it will be moved here if required.

(T&RS)
There is a main photo thread in T&RS, starting another just to post a photo is pointless and clutters up the forum.

schemingbohemia

Con Logue wrote: »

I think it is highly patronising to think that readers need to be "educated" at all and comes across as inviting as a visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses at 9.30 on a Saturday morning.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Agreed, its implying that nobody outside the c&t forum knows about trains and buses.

Haven't read through the rest of the replies, but I'd strenuously disagree with this.

A lot of people think commuting by train or bus will be a doddle, only those that have done it know how soul-destroying it can be.

I commuted from Portlaoise to Dublin on a decent train at decent times, I had an understanding boss who allowed me leave a little early to get an earlier train but 4 hours out of your day is a killer and only those who have done it are aware of the impact it can have on your life whereby you end up sleeping half the weekend away cause you're so knackered.

I'm not sure that the OP in the Kilkenny case realised this but s/he does now which I think is a win for C&T and him or her.

Hilly Bill

monument wrote: »

So, what you're saying is people will talk about things that you don't like? Because none of those things are against the rules.

This isn't a questions and answers pin board, it's a discussion board -- interisting stuff can come from threads that go beyond the OP's question and when the OP's question is answered, I'm still unclear what the harm is. If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you?

You have missed the point and im far from offended by any discussions. I was under the impression that the moderators wasnt all that keen about threads going off topic yet you are now saying its ok. Are you saying its ok for a thread to go off topic only if a moderator think its interesting? If thats the case then the moderators are not being neutral.

Hilly Bill

monument wrote: »

So, what you're saying is people will talk about things that you don't like? Because none of those things are against the rules.

This isn't a questions and answers pin board, it's a discussion board -- interisting stuff can come from threads that go beyond the OP's question and when the OP's question is answered, I'm still unclear what the harm is. If you don't like open discussion and get so offended by details buses or bus routes, maybe this isn't the place for you?

See the answer i gave to the first one.