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Bobby Sands R.I.P. 5th May 1981

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Comments

  • #482
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    If you are "trying to understand" why someone did something, and then subsequently claimed that you "understood" why they did it, would you change your own pre-existing viewpoint from wrong to right because you claimed to have understood it?

    I could try to understand why the notion of empire building was done by those who did it, but I still think its wrong.

    Give me some concrete examples then of empires that you thought were wrong and what might the alternatives have been .


  • #483
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Give me some concrete examples then of empires that you thought were wrong and what might the alternatives have been .

    Probably best to take the Godwinesque line here and say Nazi Germany's attempted takeover of Eastern Europe and the USSR.

    Alternatives? That they shouldn't have done it in the first place due to the unjust process that it is.


  • #484
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Probably best to take the Godwinesque line here and say Nazi Germany's attempted takeover of Eastern Europe and the USSR.

    Alternatives? That they shouldn't have done it in the first place due to the unjust process that it is.

    Well we can all agree on the first !!

    Interesting though that it was the Russian British French + the USA that put a stop to them and to the Japanese empire . So might I ask is there a scale of evil to these empires ?

    You alternative I presume is a joke ?


  • #485
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    You alternative I presume is a joke

    :eek:.

    I can assure you that it's not. Why did you think that?


  • #486
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    :eek:.

    I can assure you that it's not. Why did you think that?

    Because nobody could be that naïve , why not deal with history as it is not as you would like it to be.

    Now how about an answer to my question on the empires that defeated the Nazis ?


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  • #487
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Because nobody could be that naïve, why not deal with history as it is not as you would like it to be.

    :eek: (again).

    Naive that Nazi Germany shouldn't have done what it did? You serious? It was history as it was.


  • #488
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    :eek: (again).

    Naive that Nazi Germany shouldn't have done what it did? You serious? It was history as it was.

    Yeah now I know you are joking , please Mr Hitler best go home now , what you are doing is IMMORAL ! Great theory of history that .:D


  • #489
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah now I know you are joking , please Mr Hitler best go home now , what you are doing is IMMORAL ! Great theory of history that .:D

    I fail to see the funny side of your latest post. You asked for an example of an empire and I gave it to you. If you need me to explain the alternative actions they should have done as to what they actually did well.................

    Why do you now suddenly need to get into a comparative analysis of empires? Not satisfied with the example supplied?


  • #490
    burgermasters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭burgermasters


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Everyone breaks under sustained torture. Everyone. Stop talking crap about alternate realities this is a serious subject.

    If you actually think about it bobby sands was tortured in a lot of ways! And still he did not give in, knowing what your talking about or not the man was put through hell and Ireland needs a man like bobby sands Today more than ever. R.I.P


  • #491
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah now I know you are joking , please Mr Hitler best go home now , what you are doing is IMMORAL ! Great theory of history that .:D

    The Nazis would have faced ceaseless 'terrorism' against their rule.


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  • #492
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    The Nazis would have faced ceaseless 'terrorism' against their rule.


    Indeed they would and did and rightfully so.


  • #493
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    marienbad wrote: »
    Indeed they would and did and rightfully so.

    OMG you support terrorism! :eek:


  • #494
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    OMG you support terrorism! :eek:

    Godwin still remains a handy thing to keep in the back pocket.....;).


  • #495
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    I fail to see the funny side of your latest post. You asked for an example of an empire and I gave it to you. If you need me to explain the alternative actions they should have done as to what they actually did well.................

    Why do you now suddenly need to get into a comparative analysis of empires? Not satisfied with the example supplied?

    No I don't suddenly get into comparative analysis. You seem to be saying all empires are always bad and in all times and when asked why you answer because they are immoral. Is that a fair summation ? This is an absolute stance.

    I on the the other hand view history through a relative stance and what may have been acceptable in the 1st century would be unacceptable in the 21st century, be it Empires , cruel punishments, infanticide , whatever.

    Similarly in our own time the time of empire has long past and those that cling to it must be confronted .

    The nature of that confrontation should also evolve and the question I am asking in our own case is-is the violence that was accepted in the 19th century and early and mid 20th century still acceptable in the 21st century ?

    If so- why? And if not- why not?


  • #496
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    No I don't suddenly get into comparative analysis................

    But you did..............
    scale of evil

    Your words.


  • #497
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    But you did..............



    Your words.

    Look Mr Cumulonimbus, there is little point in the discussion if you ignore complete posts and pick out a titbit that you thinks suits your view.

    So before we continue would you agree that my summation of your view in my last post is correct ?


  • #498
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    OMG you support terrorism! :eek:

    Indeed I do . But not absolutely , it all depends on the circumstances.


  • #499
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    titbit

    Empire building when forced upon unwilling populations is wrong. Can't you accept this as my core belief?

    I asked you whether the notion of understanding something implied that you might change your view from wrong to right on it if you subsequently claimed to have understood it.

    You couldn't answer the question but instead changed tack and wanted me to give an example of an empire that controlled unwilling populations, which I gave. Now your back to this changing viewpoint through the ages stuff again.

    You tell me: if the prevailing viewpoint a 100 years ago is that empire building was right, that in order to understand them, you'll change your mind if needed, and hence agree with what they believed back then, because according to your own words:
    we must review the past from a moral standpoint , but the moral standpoint applicable at the time and not our moral standpoint


  • #500
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Empire building when forced upon unwilling populations is wrong. Can't you accept this as my core belief?

    I asked you whether the notion of understanding something implied that you might change your view from wrong to right on it if you subsequently claimed to have understood it.

    You couldn't answer the question but instead changed tack and wanted me to give an example of an empire that controlled unwilling populations, which I gave. Now your back to this changing viewpoint through the ages stuff again.

    You tell me: if the prevailing viewpoint a 100 years ago is that empire building was right, that in order to understand them, you'll change your mind if needed, and hence agree with what they believed back then, because according to your own words:

    Marienbad has tied themselves in an illogical knot. I would like to know what point it is they are proposing in one easy to read paragraph without the lecturing.


  • #501
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Empire building when forced upon unwilling populations is wrong. Can't you accept this as my core belief?

    I asked you whether the notion of understanding something implied that you might change your view from wrong to right on it if you subsequently claimed to have understood it.

    You couldn't answer the question but instead changed tack and wanted me to give an example of an empire that controlled unwilling populations, which I gave. Now your back to this changing viewpoint through the ages stuff again.

    You tell me: if the prevailing viewpoint a 100 years ago is that empire building was right, that in order to understand them, you'll change your mind if needed, and hence agree with what they believed back then, because according to your own words:


    Can it really be this difficult to understand ??? I haven't changed my view on anything .

    Now will you answer the question put to you a few posts back -

    ''You seem to be saying all empires are always bad and in all times and when asked why you answer because they are immoral. Is that a fair summation ?''


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  • #502
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    marienbad wrote: »
    ''You seem to be saying all empires are always bad and in all times and when asked why you answer because they are immoral. Is that a fair summation ?''

    It is a fair summation, subjugation and exploitation are key features of imperialism. Empire-building is based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involves the extension and imposition of authority and control of one state or people over another.


  • #503
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    It is a fair summation, subjugation and exploitation are key features of imperialism. Empire-building is based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involves the extension and imposition of authority and control of one state or people over another.

    And that applies for all time and all empires through time ?


  • #504
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    marienbad wrote: »
    And that applies for all time and all empires through time ?


    Can you give me examples of empires that would contradict what I have said?


  • #505
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    ''You seem to be saying all empires are always bad and in all times and when asked why you answer because they are immoral. Is that a fair summation ?''

    Yes, in the case where they force the concept of empire building on unwilling populations.

    Now will you answer this:
    If you are "trying to understand" why someone did something, and then subsequently claimed that you "understood" why they did it, would you change your own pre-existing viewpoint from believing it was wrong to believing it to be right because you claimed to have understood it?


  • #506
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Yes.

    Now will you answer this:

    If you mean our pre-existing MORAL viewpoint , then the answer is no.


  • #507
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    I will take your silence in response to my question as a no then.


  • #508
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    I will take your silence in response to my question as a no then.

    Apologies ,I didn't see your reply. Answer coming up. And you might answer mine .


  • #509
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    marienbad wrote: »
    If you mean our pre-existing MORAL viewpoint , then the answer is no.

    I'm not sure I understand you. Last time:

    If you claim to have "understood" why the past prevailing opinion on an event justifies that event occurring, i.e believe to be "right", will that change YOUR opinion on that specific event from originally believing it to be wrong to NOW believing it to be right as to agree with the prevailing opinion from that specific era?


  • #510
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    And that applies for all time and all empires through time?

    What do you mean by "for all time" and "through time"?


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  • #511
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Can you give me examples of empires that would contradict what I have said?


    What you have said is so broad that it can be applied to every power structure since the dawn of time- Any of the Caesars to Brian Boru to Obama.


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