Cost of public transport in Dublin/Ireland

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said above - a large number of Irish people have a complete fixation with paying for public transport by cash when other (usually cheaper) options are available.

That is easy to say, but the other options often have a high up front cost, that many people can't afford.

Money is tight out there.

LXFlyer

Is that not what LEAP is there for?

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Is that not what LEAP is there for?

But Leap is pretty expensive too.

€5 to get the card, compare that to Atlanta, just $1 for the same.

Minimum auto topup set at €30, all makes it pretty expensive for people, with little benefit (not enough gap between leap ticket price and cash fare).

LXFlyer

No one is forced to use auto-top up and at the moment it is only being trialled. The final basic top up rate could end up being lower based on feedback. Oyster has a £20 topup for example.

Frankly €5 is not the be all and end all. In London the card costs a refundable £5.

I think to a degree you are coming up with every possible objection to the reality that there are options out there that many people just don't seem to even bother considering.

The savings would mount up over time but people seem to be prepared to overlook that.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

But Leap is pretty expensive too.

€5 to get the card, compare that to Atlanta, just $1 for the same.

Minimum auto topup set at €30, all makes it pretty expensive for people, with little benefit (not enough gap between leap ticket price and cash fare).

The Atlanta comparison,in relation to Bus Travel is ok,but far from accurate,the two systems and the manner in which they are used differ greatly (Particularly the Bus-Transfer Aspect,a North American standard for Urban Bus Transport).

I also note that the Breeze Card has some stenorian warnings concerning the requirement to possess one ..

All customers are required to have a valid Breeze Card loaded with appropriate fare to ride MARTA.
Bus to Bus transfers are no longer issued.
Transfers are available on a Breeze Card and are automatically loaded when you tap to board a bus or exit a rail station.
If you pay with cash, you will still need a Breeze Card to receive your transfer.
Bus-to-Bus transfers are designed to help customers get from point A to point B that are not accessible using one bus route. Transfers cannot be used for round-trip travel.
You are allowed 4 transfers within a 3-hour period.

I know from experience that the use of terms such as "Required to have",and the requirement to possess a Breeze Card even if paying cash would definitely cause some hissing and spitting on my platform....:o

The standard €2.50 cash fare (with NO Transfer Permitted) is'nt pulling my chain as a wildly cheap one either...

However,no matter what Atlanta Georgia's systems are like,they have almost zero relevance to our current situation,which really is all about Senior Administrative Decisions rather than any flaws in the technology ?

For example I agree 100% on your point regarding the Auto Top-Up levels,they are wildly excessive for the Itinerant Public Transport user....(Supposedly the target market ?).

On-Street SCV units mounted at busy or strategic locations,which can either accept cash for top-ups OR simply load Internet Sourced Top-Ups are IMO a NECESSITY at this juncture.

bk

First of all let me point out that for the first year Breeze cards were issued for free.

So the vast majority of people got them for free and the vast majority of people started using them straight away.

$2.50 is €1.90 and is a flat fare, you can make up to 4 transfers within a 3 hour period across both bus and rail.

That is fantastic value compared to here.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

But Leap is pretty expensive too.

€5 to get the card, compare that to Atlanta, just $1 for the same.

Minimum auto topup set at €30, all makes it pretty expensive for people, with little benefit (not enough gap between leap ticket price and cash fare).

If Dublin, Bray and Kildare had a 1% sales tax with which to subvent public transport the same way that two districts of Atlanta have then we'd have cheap fares as well

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If Dublin, Bray and Kildare had a 1% sales tax with which to subvent public transport the same way that two districts of Atlanta have then we'd have cheap fares as well

Given how low sales tax is in the US, I'd happily go for that.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Given how low sales tax is in the US, I'd happily go for that.

Point is though, their cheap fares are there because the city has them subsidised from taxes raised from somewhere.

dowlingm

In the Toronto area Metrolinx-GO Transit have been charging a $6 issuance fee for Presto but have been waiving that on promotional days or where people present an existing monthly ticket.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

First of all let me point out that for the first year Breeze cards were issued for free.

So the vast majority of people got them for free and the vast majority of people started using them straight away.

$2.50 is €1.90 and is a flat fare, you can make up to 4 transfers within a 3 hour period across both bus and rail.

That is fantastic value compared to here.

Not arguing the Fantastic Value at all,even if our unlimited Bus T90 for €2.50 I feel gives it a run for (somebodys) money.

I'm of the opinion that there just is NO equitable comparison at all between Atlanta (USA) and Dublin (Ireland).

The very fact that some honcho saw the good sense in getting their Breezecard out there for FREE sez it all....:rolleyes:

I invite you to organize a platform extolling the virtues of introducing a new 1% Dublin Sales Tax in order to fund Public Transport.

I shall support you fully....from a safe remote location !!! :eek:

homerjay2005

but what good are Leap card, T90s and all the other cards to people who only use the service every now and then, or more to the point, Tourists who wouldnt know that those are?

i work in a city in eastern europe and even though fuel prices cost the same there (and even more in relation to economy), a single bus journey cost €0.80 and a day return on the subway cost €1.20. thats around 25%-33% of the cost of Dublin....

even a journey that would cost €20 in a taxi here, costs about €4 max there. and a return journey on train journey similar to Dublin to cork, cost again 33% of the Irish fair.

it just doesnt make sense, well it does...the wages being paid to drivers/employees just doesnt allow value for money in ireland, as all the other base costs (trains/fuel) are the same as here.

LXFlyer

Leap pay-as-you-go and Dublin Bus rambler tickets are specifically aimed at occasional users rather than regular daily passengers.

bk

homerjay2005, fuel actually makes up a very small percentage of the costs, as do the buses, etc. As you say wages are the big cost and thus the difference.

For instance for Dublin Bus in 2011 annual report, payroll (including pension etc.) made up 67% of the operating cost while fuel was just 11.5% of operating costs.

Also €0.80 for a bus ticket sounds a little expensive for an Eastern European country. You did say which one, but in Poland for instance they generally make only about a quarter of what we do here.

Con Logue

lxflyer wrote: »

Leap pay-as-you-go and Dublin Bus rambler tickets are specifically aimed at occasional users rather than regular daily passengers.

For all the time and money invested in the integrated ticketing project that seems like a spectacular waste of it if that's all Leap is.

LXFlyer

Con Logue wrote: »

For all the time and money invested in the integrated ticketing project that seems like a spectacular waste of it if that's all Leap is.

Well who do you think "pay as you go" is designed for?

I was very specific in my inclusion of that phrase.

I said LEAP "pay-as-you-go" is specifically designed for occasional users.

All of the regular daily users will/should have period passes that are already available.

On the broader scale, LEAP will incorporate those passes and allow the facility of combining pay-as-you-go and a period pass. In other words people who have a bus only period pass could use pay-as-you-go for LUAS or DART, thus allowing users to have one single card for all their transport needs.

The card will also incorporate capping for multi-mode journeys.

Con Logue

lxflyer wrote: »

Well who do you think "pay as you go" is designed for?

I was very specific in my inclusion of that phrase.

I said LEAP "pay-as-you-go" is specifically designed for occasional users.

All of the regular daily users will/should have period passes that are already available.

On the broader scale, LEAP will incorporate those passes and allow the facility of combining pay-as-you-go and a period pass. In other words people who have a bus only period pass could use pay-as-you-go for LUAS or DART, thus allowing users to have one single card for all their transport needs.

The card will also incorporate capping for multi-mode journeys.

I was specifically referring to using Leap only for pay-as-you-go as a waste of resources. As ever any possible improvement to public transport infrastructure has artificial barriers put up such as the DUTC era fare stage system on DB and the inordinate amount of time it has taken to put capping and passes on it. Reinventing a broken wheel as usual. The tech has been used elsewhere for years so why has the whole scheme taken well over a decade to implement? Money has been squandered on this IMHO partially because of turf wars. Otherwise why else has the utterly opaque fare stage system been retained? It's up there with the old refusal to entertain the middle doors and the twenty year implementation of OPO.

LXFlyer

You did not refer to the type of system that was used in your original post - you referred to the intended users.

It's abundantly clear that "pay-as-you-go" is for occasional users.

The whole project is a phased rollout - just as Oyster was.

Again - we already know that the DB fare system is to be reformed - that commitment was in the NTA fare determination report.

Con Logue

lxflyer wrote: »

You did not refer to the type of system that was used in your original post - you referred to the intended users.

It's abundantly clear that "pay-as-you-go" is for occasional users.

The whole project is a phased rollout - just as Oyster was.

Again - we already know that the DB fare system is to be reformed - that commitment was in the NTA fare determination report.

Thanks for the clarification that the fare system is to be reformed. Not before time.

bk

Con Logue wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification that the fare system is to be reformed. Not before time.

The question is how will they reform it, the options available are:

1) Some tweaking of the current stage system, won't benefit leap usage unless to go to tag-on/tag-off

2) Zonal system, again won't benefit leap, would still require driver interaction unless they went for a tag-on/tag-off system.

3) Flat fare, obviously by far the best for reducing boarding times and the most leap friendly system, tag-on only needed and no driver interaction.

4) Amsterdam style per km system, would only work in conjunction with leap tag-on/tag-off and with a high fixed cash fare.

1 would be pretty pointless, but I fear it is what we will get.

2 could be ok, depending on the size of the zones. For instance if you made it two zones, inside M50 and outside, then you could make tag-on default to zone 1 and you have to talk to driver for zone two. Not perfect, but better then 1.

4 is really a fantastic system that I think satisfies the needs of all users, easy to use and understand, promotes integration and modal transfers, protects DB's fear of going a flat fare. But really this system only works if you go the whole hog and do the same for Dart and Luas and make them all integrate like they do in Amsterdam.

AlekSmart

Con Logue wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification that the fare system is to be reformed. Not before time.

I would not get too excited Con,as the wording leaves quite a bit of elasticity .....

Its on Page 8 of this document....

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Determination-order-for-cash-Leap-and-prepaid-ticket-fares-November-2012.pdf

"Beyond 2013,Dublin Bus is planning to move to a simplified Fares Structure"

The operative words are "Beyond" and "Planning".....define both and you're suckin diesel

Con Logue

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would not get too excited Con,as the wording leaves quite a bit of elasticity .....

Its on Page 8 of this document....

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Determination-order-for-cash-Leap-and-prepaid-ticket-fares-November-2012.pdf

"Beyond 2013,Dublin Bus is planning to move to a simplified Fares Structure"

The operative words are "Beyond" and "Planning".....define both and you're suckin diesel

Indeed, won't hold the proverbial breath waiting! bk's list of suggestions looks pretty comprehensive to me and sounds very like the shortlist of options.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

.
4 is really a fantastic system that I think satisfies the needs of all users, easy to use and understand, promotes integration and modal transfers, protects DB's fear of going a flat fare. But really this system only works if you go the whole hog and do the same for Dart and Luas and make them all integrate like they do in Amsterdam.

Not to diss the remainder of your post bk,but the final paragraph says it all for me.

This surely should have been the PRIME directive given to the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group BY CENTRAL GOVERNMENT,back in 1999.

The ITIG through it's parent,the NTA,was given a very powerful and broad remit to restructure Irish Public Transport provision,and indeed it still retains that remit.

However,the ITIG chose,for as yet unexplained reasons,to pursue a totally crackpot route,which saw it defer to the principle of individual operators retaining individual and non-integrated systems with some vague overall intention to "Integrate these systems at a later stage".

This attitude is beyond rational explanation IMO,and is fundamental in preventing any further progress in our Country's Public Transport Systems.

AlekSmart

Con Logue wrote: »

For all the time and money invested in the integrated ticketing project that seems like a spectacular waste of it if that's all Leap is.

Indeed,but it's pnly when one is presented by stuff such as this... http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Schedule-G-Records-Part-ii.pdf

...that one gets a small understanding of how involved we can make the simple stuff.....:o

Get Real

OP, I agree that there does seem to be a problem with the pricing of public transport in the Dublin region, and in Ireland in general.

My friend is on Erasmus studying abroad in Berlin for the year, college students over there get free transport in berlin included in their registration yhis inludes all public transport- bus, s-bahn (dart equivalent) u-bahn (metro) and regional trains. Over here its 810 euro for 9 months of ONLY bus use based on a monthly student ticket,

There are also a few cities I've been to in Europe where a trip that costs 2.15 on Dublin bus costs about 50cent.

I realise though that in some countries, while they're public transport is cheap, they're spending power/ income is much lower than ours.

So to make a fair comparrison, I've again chosen Berlin.

Keep in mind that Berlin has a MUCH more advanced public transport system than Dublin, spanning a much bigger area, arriving very very frequently, in the heart of a European city, yet it is much cheaper.

Both our countries are similar in wage rates, purchasing power (even though we're in the sh*t) so you'd think general prices would be similar (if not actually dearer in Berlin as they're still growing economically)

a monthly pass for Dublin bus ONLY is 29% DEARER than an unlimited pass for bus, tram, metro combined in Berin.

Here's the link, providing general costs of living between the two cities. I wanted to be fair by comparing two similar countries ie GDP per capita, wage rates etc, as to compare Dublin to.... I dunno Prague would be a little unfair.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Ireland&city1=Berlin&city2=Dublin

note how Dublin is more expensive for alot of things, even though Berlin is more advanced transportation wise, a bigger European hub, and in my opinion, cooler in general. for example rent for an apartment in the suburbs is 87% dearer in Dublin, 87%!!!!

Anyway keeping on the topic of public transport, thats an example of similar developed countries, you'll find with that website you can type in Dublin, scroll down to "compare with"...type in another city and it'll compare a wide range of things, including of course, transport.

AlekSmart

Get Real wrote: »

OP, I agree that there does seem to be a problem with the pricing of public transport in the Dublin region, and in Ireland in general.

My friend is on Erasmus studying abroad in Berlin for the year, college students over there get free transport in berlin included in their registration yhis inludes all public transport- bus, s-bahn (dart equivalent) u-bahn (metro) and regional trains. Over here its 810 euro for 9 months of ONLY bus use based on a monthly student ticket,

There are also a few cities I've been to in Europe where a trip that costs 2.15 on Dublin bus costs about 50cent.

I realise though that in some countries, while they're public transport is cheap, they're spending power/ income is much lower than ours.

So to make a fair comparrison, I've again chosen Berlin.

Keep in mind that Berlin has a MUCH more advanced public transport system than Dublin, spanning a much bigger area, arriving very very frequently, in the heart of a European city, yet it is much cheaper.

Both our countries are similar in wage rates, purchasing power (even though we're in the sh*t) so you'd think general prices would be similar (if not actually dearer in Berlin as they're still growing economically)

a monthly pass for Dublin bus ONLY is 29% DEARER than an unlimited pass for bus, tram, metro combined in Berin.

Here's the link, providing general costs of living between the two cities. I wanted to be fair by comparing two similar countries ie GDP per capita, wage rates etc, as to compare Dublin to.... I dunno Prague would be a little unfair.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Ireland&city1=Berlin&city2=Dublin

note how Dublin is more expensive for alot of things, even though Berlin is more advanced transportation wise, a bigger European hub, and in my opinion, cooler in general. for example rent for an apartment in the suburbs is 87% dearer in Dublin, 87%!!!!

Anyway keeping on the topic of public transport, thats an example of similar developed countries, you'll find with that website you can type in Dublin, scroll down to "compare with"...type in another city and it'll compare a wide range of things, including of course, transport.

I honestly don't see Berlin as a comparison at all.

It really does come down to what regard we place on the Public element of Public Transport.

The Germans think and act differently in these matters.

Some of the figures in this study point to the reasons why our EU partners have both better AND cheaper (but rarely FREE) Public Transport.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

Taking the Berlin overview,which includes all aspects of Public Transport in the BVG's remit...

33% Farebox
10% Other Commercial Sources
47% Subsidy.

Comparing Dublin Bus specific figures shows...

96.4% Farebox
3.6% Subsidy.

Perhaps taking another German City such as Frankfurt,which has Bus Specific figures quoted,would be helpful...

45.3% Farebox
11.1% Other Commercial Sources
43.6% Subsidy.

It's not even about figures,at this stage,it's about how the National Thought Process regards the stuff we use every day,and I suggest that process is FAR different in the Germanic mindset.

Im equally interested to learn of 50c Bus Fares generally available in an EU Capital equating to a Dublin Bus 4 - 7 Stage €2.15 fare.

On my last visit to Berlin the single (Flat) Fare was €2.60,which of itself was good value as it offered 90 min validity (as would BAC's T90,were it available singly).

bk

But Alex that is excluding the public service obligation payments which are also a subsidy of a kind and represent 41% of income versus fare box. For 2011 the DB figures are:

Revenue: 178 million
PSO Grant: 73 million

So when you add the capital subsidies, very close to both Berlin and Frankfurt, yet we get a very inferior service.

Part of the problem is the way the subsidy is spent. In German, I believe everyone pays, there are no free fares for elderly etc., but there are reduced fares for elderly.

Here is Ireland we give away a large amount of money to people to use public transport for free, but then expect normal wage earning passengers to pay top dollar for this, where as in Germany, instead of giving some free public transport, they give everyone cheap public transport.

The problem with the Irish approach is that it makes public transport very expensive for the majority of workers, who end up saying stuff it and take their car instead as it costs the same.

I think the German approach is much fairer and healthier for public transport. Everyone pays for public transport, but it is cheap.

Get Real

AlekSmart wrote: »

I honestly don't see Berlin as a comparison at all.

It really does come down to what regard we place on the Public element of Public Transport.

The Germans think and act differently in these matters.

Some of the figures in this study point to the reasons why our EU partners have both better AND cheaper (but rarely FREE) Public Transport.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

Taking the Berlin overview,which includes all aspects of Public Transport in the BVG's remit...

33% Farebox
10% Other Commercial Sources
47% Subsidy.

Comparing Dublin Bus specific figures shows...

96.4% Farebox
3.6% Subsidy.

Perhaps taking another German City such as Frankfurt,which has Bus Specific figures quoted,would be helpful...

45.3% Farebox
11.1% Other Commercial Sources
43.6% Subsidy.

It's not even about figures,at this stage,it's about how the National Thought Process regards the stuff we use every day,and I suggest that process is FAR different in the Germanic mindset.

Im equally interested to learn of 50c Bus Fares generally available in an EU Capital equating to a Dublin Bus 4 - 7 Stage €2.15 fare.

On my last visit to Berlin the single (Flat) Fare was €2.60,which of itself was good value as it offered 90 min validity (as would BAC's T90,were it available singly).

I agree with you there, thanks for the statistics and breakdown, I guess I got it completely wrong in comparing those cities :O

Terrontress

Something which is not being compared is the public transport which you don't take compared to that which you do.

I find frequencies in cities like Munich, Paris, Barcelona to be much superior to Dublin. It's all well and good to compare Dublin cost per km with that in Munich, sorry I haven't been to Atlanta or Toronto, but if the bus in Dublin only runs every 35 minutes and a comparable route in Munich runs every 5 then the comparison is not valid.

homerjay2005

bk wrote: »

For instance for Dublin Bus in 2011 annual report, payroll (including pension etc.) made up 67% of the operating cost while fuel was just 11.5% of operating costs.

holy s*it:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: and they have the cheek then to blame rising fuel costs on putting up fairs, when in reality the main reason for the poor prices here, is that people are over paid.

how much in total did Dublin Bus spend in 2011 and how much profit/loss did they make do you know?

Terrontress wrote: »

Something which is not being compared is the public transport which you don't take compared to that which you do.

I find frequencies in cities like Munich, Paris, Barcelona to be much superior to Dublin. It's all well and good to compare Dublin cost per km with that in Munich, sorry I haven't been to Atlanta or Toronto, but if the bus in Dublin only runs every 35 minutes and a comparable route in Munich runs every 5 then the comparison is not valid.

yes, value for money. personally having to pay 4.40 to go 4 stops and have a to wait 47 minutes in total, is just disgraceful to be honest.