Optimising Driver Numbers

alxmorgan

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit our wet conditions)

What do you think ?

PARlance

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit or wet conditions)

What do you think ?

Not the most technical piece of advice, but it has really changed my driving of late.

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance, regular playing partners have also noted it, even a couple of young lads that I played with in a recent club comp mentioned that I was getting a great high ball flight... (Approaching 30 and I felt like a kid again with the compliment )

I have started to duff the odd drive... mainly down to me trying to ensure I am on the up swing as soon as I go past the center of my stance, going a bit too low on occasion ...funnily enough, I'm still getting decent distance off these duffed ones :eek:

I may be back in a month crying about how shocking my driving is, but for the first time since taking up golf, I can actually say I'm delighted with it.

I thought I was hitting up on the ball before, the change to this really emphasized that I wasn't doing it half as much as I thought.

It's none of your fancy stuff...but maybe worth a try

alxmorgan

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Not the most technical piece of advice, but it has really changed my driving of late.

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance, regular playing partners have also noted it, even a couple of young lads that I played with in a recent club comp mentioned that I was getting a great high ball flight... (Approaching 30 and I felt like a kid again with the compliment )

I have started to duff the odd drive... mainly down to me trying to ensure I am on the up swing as soon as I go past the center of my stance, going a bit too low on occasion ...funnily enough, I'm still getting decent distance off these duffed ones :eek:

I may be back in a month crying about how shocking my driving is, but for the first time since taking up golf, I can actually say I'm delighted with it.

I thought I was hitting up on the ball before, the change to this really emphasized that I wasn't doing it half as much as I thought.

It's none of your fancy stuff...but maybe worth a try

Actually I think I was the one who posted that video in the first place on here

I have been using that tip and it has greatly improved my driving too. I suppose I am just interested in Greebos numbers and Trackman numbers in particular.

To be honest driving is not my issue at the moment - just a topic of general interest

PARlance

alxmorgan wrote: »

Actually I think I was the one who posted that video in the first place on here

I have been using that tip and it has greatly improved my driving too. I suppose I am just interested in Greebos numbers and Trackman numbers in particular.

To be honest driving is not my issue at the moment - just a topic of general interest

I owe you a pint so

I leave ye to talk the technical stuff.
Long, high and straight...that's all I need to know for the time being

Daithio12

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit or wet conditions)

What do you think ?

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

alxmorgan

Daithio12 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

Not sure carry is the only figure worth talking about.
If I carry 230 and run 5, then that's a big difference from carrying 230 and running 40. Obviously carry is the most important when it comes to obstacles such as bunkers, water etc though

As for driver numbers - yes you are right on vanity. For the purposes of proper discussion you need to leave the ego at the door.

Milkers

That's a great tip for the driver setup, seems to make an awful lot of sense. Do many of the pros set up with driver like that I wonder?

John Divney

Milkers wrote: »

That's a great tip for the driver setup, seems to make an awful lot of sense. Do many of the pros set up with driver like that I wonder?

Pros have a negative angle of attack on all clubs, around minus 1.5 on average for driver IIRC.

However, they have massive clubhead speed and a maximum smash factor, which means maximum ball speed.

Off centre hits are a disater with the driver, losing distance, massive added axis spin, so your path could be ok, club face straight enough, but the strike is toe or heel due to poor setup.

A lot of amateurs need the aid to get more carry, swinging up does the trick. However it's harder to control as the release of the club is not natural compared to the rest of the clubs in your bag.

Driver is a bitch really, little changes make big differences.

GreeBo

Daithio12 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

Yeah, all I had to do was buy the Trackman dinner and it just printed out whatever I wanted :rolleyes:

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit our wet conditions)

What do you think ?

100 mph 148 mph 13.2 242 286

This seems pretty similar to my numbers, I didnt get the launch angle or the launch speed so cant really compare them, but I guess 9.5 + ~3 = ~12.5 for a carry of 250 isnt so far off 13.2 carrying 242?
We may have been a bit downwind on the day.

My numbers are carry only, even in "Summer" I dont get a huge amount of roll from my drives, this time of year the ball is often embedded or even hops back a foot or so.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Pros have a negative angle of attack on all clubs, around minus 1.5 on average for driver IIRC.

However, they have massive clubhead speed and a maximum smash factor, which means maximum ball speed.

Off centre hits are a disater with the driver, losing distance, massive added axis spin, so your path could be ok, club face straight enough, but the strike is toe or heel due to poor setup.

A lot of amateurs need the aid to get more carry, swinging up does the trick. However it's harder to control as the release of the club is not natural compared to the rest of the clubs in your bag.

Driver is a bitch really, little changes make big differences.

They dont all hit down on it, those that do are sacrificing distance for slightly more accuracy.
Here are Rorys (old) numbers. Hitting up and average of 4.4 and you can see large difference when he drops that down to 1.2 (looses about 20 yards carry)




more stats

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, all I had to do was buy the Trackman dinner and it just printed out whatever I wanted :rolleyes:



100 mph 148 mph 13.2 242 286

This seems pretty similar to my numbers, I didnt get the launch angle or the launch speed so cant really compare them, but I guess 9.5 + ~3 = ~12.5 for a carry of 250 isnt so far off 13.2 carrying 242?
We may have been a bit downwind on the day.

My numbers are carry only, even in "Summer" I dont get a huge amount of roll from my drives, this time of year the ball is often embedded or even hops back a foot or so.

True, I was looking at 95 numbers. Did you see your spin rates ?

John Divney

Yes, I wasn't very clear there., the bombers hit up, Bubba and Rory, but the trackman average of all players is down.

There's probably wide spectrum, from plus to minus through the tour.

I think Luke Donald is a slow swinger, but he also hits down more than the average. He generally is very accurate off the tee.

The amazing thing about trackman data is that is say's the average height of ALL golf shots on tour is between 27 and 31 feet. PW is the same height as a Driver. That is mind boggling.

GreeBo

Didnt get spin numbers, it was really just a quickie as he had 20+ people.

For most people a simple check of loft and shaft coupled with ensuring that you are hitting up on it will optimise your driving distance. Sure you can tweak that further but I reckon for the vast majority of us its not worth it and wont improve scoring.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Didnt get spin numbers, it was really just a quickie as he had 20+ people.

For most people a simple check of loft and shaft coupled with ensuring that you are hitting up on it will optimise your driving distance. Sure you can tweak that further but I reckon for the vast majority of us its not worth it and wont improve scoring.

Pretty cool that something off the shelf is working so well though.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Pretty cool that something off the shelf is working so well though.

yep, delighted.
Driving would always have been the strongest part of my game (bar the recent snap hooks!) and it was replacing an older Stiff 9 degree Cobra 440 SZ so I was confident enough...I always have hit it high but never felt that I was really loosing distance so never tried to change.

I was really amazed that Titleist fitted a guy for a 7.5 degree...the Trackman guy wasnt even aware they were still made!

John Divney

Out of interest are there many pros in Dublin using trackman, nearly every thing in the US and England you hear 'so get down to the pro and check your numbers etc

I know it probably cost a fair whack but it seem an unbelievable tool for those who have a consistent swing and want to get the overall picture, fine tune.

Seem to be used just to sell equipment in Ireland.

GreeBo

he is the only one level 2 certified guy in Ireland...
and it's the guy who did ours
this is him http://www.jmgolfacademy.com/trackman/
it's not just for repeatable swings, their was a private lesson n before outs that I watched...this guy had a 50 years slice of the tee and by the end it was a fade with 50 years more distance
/edit
I think it's 60 for 45 mins and you get your studies missy like the link I posted above

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

he is the only one level 2 certified guy in Ireland...
and it's the guy who did ours
this is him http://www.jmgolfacademy.com/trackman/
it's not just for repeatable swings, their was a private lesson n before outs that I watched...this guy had a 50 years slice of the tee and by the end it was a fade with 50 years more distance
/edit
I think it's 60 for 45 mins and you get your studies missy like the link I posted above

Cheers.

Such a gap in the market, every two bob instructor in the states has this it seems.

Maybe we as a nation are a bit skeptical when it comes to this stuff, but the technology has been out for ages, I'm gobsmacked at the dearth of interest by the pros. Every range should have one really on lease.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Cheers.

Such a gap in the market, every two bob instructor in the states has this it seems.

Maybe we as a nation are a bit skeptical when it comes to this stuff, but the technology has been out for ages, I'm gobsmacked at the dearth of interest by the pros. Every range should have one really on lease.

price I guess...equipment is expensive and Im sure the certification is also.

Id worry about any random pro using it to fit people, especially after the 7.5 degree story from the weekend.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

price I guess...equipment is expensive and Im sure the certification is also.

Id worry about any random pro using it to fit people, especially after the 7.5 degree story from the weekend.

I remember reading a few years ago the units were around 15k. Flightsope is cheaper I think but not as accurate in terms of spin and launch angle apparently.

Not cheap but definitely worth an investment by a pro or a group in the same range. But maybe the market here just isn't ready and we aren't as mad for the technical stuff as the average American golfer.

I bet your fella makes a killing though, deservedly so.

alxmorgan

I have been taking more of an interest in trackman lately.
This video from Trackman maestro was eye opening for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRaZFR9PZM

Andrew Rice does a lot on trackman too:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/

Here at home this blog is by a Trackman pro:

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/

I like it because it's scientific. You can't really argue with the numbers.

U.P.O.

I know the guy in Birr Golf Shop and the guy in Drive Golf Performance in Cork both have a trackman for fittings. I havent been to either but intend to go during the summer.

alxmorgan

U.P.O. wrote: »

I know the guy in Birr Golf Shop and the guy in Drive Golf Performance in Cork both have a trackman for fittings. I havent been to either but intend to go during the summer.

Are you going for a fitting or a trackman based lesson ?

U.P.O.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Are you going for a fitting or a trackman based lesson ?

A driver fitting.

alxmorgan

U.P.O. wrote: »

A driver fitting.

Would be very interested to hear how this goes so you might come back on and fill us in.
Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

U.P.O.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Would be very interested to hear how this goes so you might come back on and fill us in.
Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

I dont know to be honest. Ill let you know though when i go. It could be about a month before i do it though but ill keep you all posted

Sipper

There are 3 main launch monitors available on the market today, Trackman, GC2 (SKY SPORTS) and Flightscope X2.A good starting point regarding cost would be upwards of €13k depending on model and spec.
Trackman and Flightscope work on doppler radar so actually track the whole flight of the ball from strike to landing and so must be positioned behind the target line, roll is estimated and can be a little misleading because of Irish ground conditions etc. The GC2 works on a camera system and is placed opposite the ball at address which then calculates what the ball would have done based on a library or history of 'millions' of shots. Because the GC2 doesn't need to track the whole ball flight you will see many of these used in indoor swing rooms and places with limited space.
I have recently bought a Flightscope X2 which I find very accurate and great at telling the truth about often over estimated distances. As I work in the golf trade my unit is available for fittings, lessons and personal use.

Loire

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance

Hi AJ,

Thanks for this - I watched it last night and found it very good. Went to the range today at lunchtime to give it a go and the results were great. Got a higher flight and definitely more carry. One thing I noticed though was that I had to commit to swinging smoothly/normally. Giving it a bit "extra" caused slices for me. I do think I'll stick with it though but practice is needed for me - the last thing I want is to miss the ball completely on the first!

Loire.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

This is what worries me.
I'd much prefer a lesson aided by a Trackman than a fitting aided by a Trackman.

I dont want to be given a 14 degree driver because I hit down, I want to be coached to hit up instead.

niallo27

Loire wrote: »

Hi AJ,

Thanks for this - I watched it last night and found it very good. Went to the range today at lunchtime to give it a go and the results were great. Got a higher flight and definitely more carry. One thing I noticed though was that I had to commit to swinging smoothly/normally. Giving it a bit "extra" caused slices for me. I do think I'll stick with it though but practice is needed for me - the last thing I want is to miss the ball completely on the first!

Loire.

I tried it myself today in shannon. Was a bit wild the odd time but I caught one ball on the 9th and it went around 290 to 300 yards. I'm a 230 to 240 driver. I couldn't believe the difference it made. It does feel wrong though, when it goes wrong it goes very wrong.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

This is what worries me.
I'd much prefer a lesson aided by a Trackman than a fitting aided by a Trackman.

I dont want to be given a 14 degree driver because I hit down, I want to be coached to hit up instead.

Optimal launch angles can be lower for negative angles of attack due to spin loft. Spin loft difference between dynamic launch and angle of attack.

For example an attack angle of 4 down and a launch of 14 degrees is a spin loft of 18 degrees, this would lead to lots of spin, especially with a lot of speed.

To maximise distance the launch would need to be lower, with a resultant decrease in spin loft. For golfers with speed lower lofted drivers work with negative angles of attack.

For golfers without too much speed this mightn't work.