Optimising Driver Numbers

alxmorgan

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit our wet conditions)

What do you think ?

PARlance

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit or wet conditions)

What do you think ?

Not the most technical piece of advice, but it has really changed my driving of late.

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance, regular playing partners have also noted it, even a couple of young lads that I played with in a recent club comp mentioned that I was getting a great high ball flight... (Approaching 30 and I felt like a kid again with the compliment )

I have started to duff the odd drive... mainly down to me trying to ensure I am on the up swing as soon as I go past the center of my stance, going a bit too low on occasion ...funnily enough, I'm still getting decent distance off these duffed ones :eek:

I may be back in a month crying about how shocking my driving is, but for the first time since taking up golf, I can actually say I'm delighted with it.

I thought I was hitting up on the ball before, the change to this really emphasized that I wasn't doing it half as much as I thought.

It's none of your fancy stuff...but maybe worth a try

alxmorgan

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Not the most technical piece of advice, but it has really changed my driving of late.

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance, regular playing partners have also noted it, even a couple of young lads that I played with in a recent club comp mentioned that I was getting a great high ball flight... (Approaching 30 and I felt like a kid again with the compliment )

I have started to duff the odd drive... mainly down to me trying to ensure I am on the up swing as soon as I go past the center of my stance, going a bit too low on occasion ...funnily enough, I'm still getting decent distance off these duffed ones :eek:

I may be back in a month crying about how shocking my driving is, but for the first time since taking up golf, I can actually say I'm delighted with it.

I thought I was hitting up on the ball before, the change to this really emphasized that I wasn't doing it half as much as I thought.

It's none of your fancy stuff...but maybe worth a try

Actually I think I was the one who posted that video in the first place on here

I have been using that tip and it has greatly improved my driving too. I suppose I am just interested in Greebos numbers and Trackman numbers in particular.

To be honest driving is not my issue at the moment - just a topic of general interest

PARlance

alxmorgan wrote: »

Actually I think I was the one who posted that video in the first place on here

I have been using that tip and it has greatly improved my driving too. I suppose I am just interested in Greebos numbers and Trackman numbers in particular.

To be honest driving is not my issue at the moment - just a topic of general interest

I owe you a pint so

I leave ye to talk the technical stuff.
Long, high and straight...that's all I need to know for the time being

Daithio12

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit or wet conditions)

What do you think ?

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

alxmorgan

Daithio12 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

Not sure carry is the only figure worth talking about.
If I carry 230 and run 5, then that's a big difference from carrying 230 and running 40. Obviously carry is the most important when it comes to obstacles such as bunkers, water etc though

As for driver numbers - yes you are right on vanity. For the purposes of proper discussion you need to leave the ego at the door.

Milkers

That's a great tip for the driver setup, seems to make an awful lot of sense. Do many of the pros set up with driver like that I wonder?

John Divney

Milkers wrote: »

That's a great tip for the driver setup, seems to make an awful lot of sense. Do many of the pros set up with driver like that I wonder?

Pros have a negative angle of attack on all clubs, around minus 1.5 on average for driver IIRC.

However, they have massive clubhead speed and a maximum smash factor, which means maximum ball speed.

Off centre hits are a disater with the driver, losing distance, massive added axis spin, so your path could be ok, club face straight enough, but the strike is toe or heel due to poor setup.

A lot of amateurs need the aid to get more carry, swinging up does the trick. However it's harder to control as the release of the club is not natural compared to the rest of the clubs in your bag.

Driver is a bitch really, little changes make big differences.

GreeBo

Daithio12 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed with Driver numbers is that there is a huge amount of vanity involved paticularly when someone volunteers theirs (without being directly asked) and that those numbers don't always stack up.
Generally too people give their total distance when the only real figure worth talking about is carry.

Yeah, all I had to do was buy the Trackman dinner and it just printed out whatever I wanted :rolleyes:

alxmorgan wrote: »

Said I'd start this separately rather than hijack how did you score thread.

So I found this:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/2012/11/optimal-driver-numbers/

@Greebo...if this is accurate then you must be changing some other variable to achieve your numbers. My first thought is a higher launch figure which results in greater carry and less roll (which would suit our wet conditions)

What do you think ?

100 mph 148 mph 13.2 242 286

This seems pretty similar to my numbers, I didnt get the launch angle or the launch speed so cant really compare them, but I guess 9.5 + ~3 = ~12.5 for a carry of 250 isnt so far off 13.2 carrying 242?
We may have been a bit downwind on the day.

My numbers are carry only, even in "Summer" I dont get a huge amount of roll from my drives, this time of year the ball is often embedded or even hops back a foot or so.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Pros have a negative angle of attack on all clubs, around minus 1.5 on average for driver IIRC.

However, they have massive clubhead speed and a maximum smash factor, which means maximum ball speed.

Off centre hits are a disater with the driver, losing distance, massive added axis spin, so your path could be ok, club face straight enough, but the strike is toe or heel due to poor setup.

A lot of amateurs need the aid to get more carry, swinging up does the trick. However it's harder to control as the release of the club is not natural compared to the rest of the clubs in your bag.

Driver is a bitch really, little changes make big differences.

They dont all hit down on it, those that do are sacrificing distance for slightly more accuracy.
Here are Rorys (old) numbers. Hitting up and average of 4.4 and you can see large difference when he drops that down to 1.2 (looses about 20 yards carry)




more stats

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, all I had to do was buy the Trackman dinner and it just printed out whatever I wanted :rolleyes:



100 mph 148 mph 13.2 242 286

This seems pretty similar to my numbers, I didnt get the launch angle or the launch speed so cant really compare them, but I guess 9.5 + ~3 = ~12.5 for a carry of 250 isnt so far off 13.2 carrying 242?
We may have been a bit downwind on the day.

My numbers are carry only, even in "Summer" I dont get a huge amount of roll from my drives, this time of year the ball is often embedded or even hops back a foot or so.

True, I was looking at 95 numbers. Did you see your spin rates ?

John Divney

Yes, I wasn't very clear there., the bombers hit up, Bubba and Rory, but the trackman average of all players is down.

There's probably wide spectrum, from plus to minus through the tour.

I think Luke Donald is a slow swinger, but he also hits down more than the average. He generally is very accurate off the tee.

The amazing thing about trackman data is that is say's the average height of ALL golf shots on tour is between 27 and 31 feet. PW is the same height as a Driver. That is mind boggling.

GreeBo

Didnt get spin numbers, it was really just a quickie as he had 20+ people.

For most people a simple check of loft and shaft coupled with ensuring that you are hitting up on it will optimise your driving distance. Sure you can tweak that further but I reckon for the vast majority of us its not worth it and wont improve scoring.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Didnt get spin numbers, it was really just a quickie as he had 20+ people.

For most people a simple check of loft and shaft coupled with ensuring that you are hitting up on it will optimise your driving distance. Sure you can tweak that further but I reckon for the vast majority of us its not worth it and wont improve scoring.

Pretty cool that something off the shelf is working so well though.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Pretty cool that something off the shelf is working so well though.

yep, delighted.
Driving would always have been the strongest part of my game (bar the recent snap hooks!) and it was replacing an older Stiff 9 degree Cobra 440 SZ so I was confident enough...I always have hit it high but never felt that I was really loosing distance so never tried to change.

I was really amazed that Titleist fitted a guy for a 7.5 degree...the Trackman guy wasnt even aware they were still made!

John Divney

Out of interest are there many pros in Dublin using trackman, nearly every thing in the US and England you hear 'so get down to the pro and check your numbers etc

I know it probably cost a fair whack but it seem an unbelievable tool for those who have a consistent swing and want to get the overall picture, fine tune.

Seem to be used just to sell equipment in Ireland.

GreeBo

he is the only one level 2 certified guy in Ireland...
and it's the guy who did ours
this is him http://www.jmgolfacademy.com/trackman/
it's not just for repeatable swings, their was a private lesson n before outs that I watched...this guy had a 50 years slice of the tee and by the end it was a fade with 50 years more distance
/edit
I think it's 60 for 45 mins and you get your studies missy like the link I posted above

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

he is the only one level 2 certified guy in Ireland...
and it's the guy who did ours
this is him http://www.jmgolfacademy.com/trackman/
it's not just for repeatable swings, their was a private lesson n before outs that I watched...this guy had a 50 years slice of the tee and by the end it was a fade with 50 years more distance
/edit
I think it's 60 for 45 mins and you get your studies missy like the link I posted above

Cheers.

Such a gap in the market, every two bob instructor in the states has this it seems.

Maybe we as a nation are a bit skeptical when it comes to this stuff, but the technology has been out for ages, I'm gobsmacked at the dearth of interest by the pros. Every range should have one really on lease.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Cheers.

Such a gap in the market, every two bob instructor in the states has this it seems.

Maybe we as a nation are a bit skeptical when it comes to this stuff, but the technology has been out for ages, I'm gobsmacked at the dearth of interest by the pros. Every range should have one really on lease.

price I guess...equipment is expensive and Im sure the certification is also.

Id worry about any random pro using it to fit people, especially after the 7.5 degree story from the weekend.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

price I guess...equipment is expensive and Im sure the certification is also.

Id worry about any random pro using it to fit people, especially after the 7.5 degree story from the weekend.

I remember reading a few years ago the units were around 15k. Flightsope is cheaper I think but not as accurate in terms of spin and launch angle apparently.

Not cheap but definitely worth an investment by a pro or a group in the same range. But maybe the market here just isn't ready and we aren't as mad for the technical stuff as the average American golfer.

I bet your fella makes a killing though, deservedly so.

alxmorgan

I have been taking more of an interest in trackman lately.
This video from Trackman maestro was eye opening for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRaZFR9PZM

Andrew Rice does a lot on trackman too:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/

Here at home this blog is by a Trackman pro:

http://0to300golf.blogspot.ie/

I like it because it's scientific. You can't really argue with the numbers.

U.P.O.

I know the guy in Birr Golf Shop and the guy in Drive Golf Performance in Cork both have a trackman for fittings. I havent been to either but intend to go during the summer.

alxmorgan

U.P.O. wrote: »

I know the guy in Birr Golf Shop and the guy in Drive Golf Performance in Cork both have a trackman for fittings. I havent been to either but intend to go during the summer.

Are you going for a fitting or a trackman based lesson ?

U.P.O.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Are you going for a fitting or a trackman based lesson ?

A driver fitting.

alxmorgan

U.P.O. wrote: »

A driver fitting.

Would be very interested to hear how this goes so you might come back on and fill us in.
Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

U.P.O.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Would be very interested to hear how this goes so you might come back on and fill us in.
Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

I dont know to be honest. Ill let you know though when i go. It could be about a month before i do it though but ill keep you all posted

Sipper

There are 3 main launch monitors available on the market today, Trackman, GC2 (SKY SPORTS) and Flightscope X2.A good starting point regarding cost would be upwards of €13k depending on model and spec.
Trackman and Flightscope work on doppler radar so actually track the whole flight of the ball from strike to landing and so must be positioned behind the target line, roll is estimated and can be a little misleading because of Irish ground conditions etc. The GC2 works on a camera system and is placed opposite the ball at address which then calculates what the ball would have done based on a library or history of 'millions' of shots. Because the GC2 doesn't need to track the whole ball flight you will see many of these used in indoor swing rooms and places with limited space.
I have recently bought a Flightscope X2 which I find very accurate and great at telling the truth about often over estimated distances. As I work in the golf trade my unit is available for fittings, lessons and personal use.

Loire

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance

Hi AJ,

Thanks for this - I watched it last night and found it very good. Went to the range today at lunchtime to give it a go and the results were great. Got a higher flight and definitely more carry. One thing I noticed though was that I had to commit to swinging smoothly/normally. Giving it a bit "extra" caused slices for me. I do think I'll stick with it though but practice is needed for me - the last thing I want is to miss the ball completely on the first!

Loire.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Will be interesting to see if he just fits based on your numbers or tries to adjust them. For example if you had a negative AOA would he fit based on that when we know that is not optimal or try to get you to hit up more and then fit based on that ?

This is what worries me.
I'd much prefer a lesson aided by a Trackman than a fitting aided by a Trackman.

I dont want to be given a 14 degree driver because I hit down, I want to be coached to hit up instead.

niallo27

Loire wrote: »

Hi AJ,

Thanks for this - I watched it last night and found it very good. Went to the range today at lunchtime to give it a go and the results were great. Got a higher flight and definitely more carry. One thing I noticed though was that I had to commit to swinging smoothly/normally. Giving it a bit "extra" caused slices for me. I do think I'll stick with it though but practice is needed for me - the last thing I want is to miss the ball completely on the first!

Loire.

I tried it myself today in shannon. Was a bit wild the odd time but I caught one ball on the 9th and it went around 290 to 300 yards. I'm a 230 to 240 driver. I couldn't believe the difference it made. It does feel wrong though, when it goes wrong it goes very wrong.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

This is what worries me.
I'd much prefer a lesson aided by a Trackman than a fitting aided by a Trackman.

I dont want to be given a 14 degree driver because I hit down, I want to be coached to hit up instead.

Optimal launch angles can be lower for negative angles of attack due to spin loft. Spin loft difference between dynamic launch and angle of attack.

For example an attack angle of 4 down and a launch of 14 degrees is a spin loft of 18 degrees, this would lead to lots of spin, especially with a lot of speed.

To maximise distance the launch would need to be lower, with a resultant decrease in spin loft. For golfers with speed lower lofted drivers work with negative angles of attack.

For golfers without too much speed this mightn't work.

BoardsMember

Question about the Shawn Clement video (before he goes off to try it out...)....how come the pros, and nearly everyone else playing golf, address the ball rather than the way he's suggesting it? Or another way of asking it: assuming that pros hit the ball on the upswing (after bottoming out) & that they all address the ball in a normal manner, presumably they bottom out on the swing at a point behind where the club was at address. If this is the case, and it works for them, then why is it not ok for us to do it. Is it because we can get into alignment issues or bad angles of hitting, whereas they arent prone to this?

GreeBo

BoardsMember wrote: »

Question about the Shawn Clement video (before he goes off to try it out...)....how come the pros, and nearly everyone else playing golf, address the ball rather than the way he's suggesting it? Or another way of asking it: assuming that pros hit the ball on the upswing (after bottoming out) & that they all address the ball in a normal manner, presumably they bottom out on the swing at a point behind where the club was at address. If this is the case, and it works for them, then why is it not ok for us to do it. Is it because we can get into alignment issues or bad angles of hitting, whereas they arent prone to this?

I think its a drill and not something that you would continue to use. It helps you to stop getting steep on the ball and promotes a sweeping action. (I used it for myself a few years ago)

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

I think its a drill and not something that you would continue to use. It helps you to stop getting steep on the ball and promotes a sweeping action. (I used it for myself a few years ago)

I use it on the course too.

As for why not the pros that's a good question and I'm afraid I don't have the answer but us being crap at alignment would be my best guess

madds

GreeBo wrote: »

This is what worries me.
I'd much prefer a lesson aided by a Trackman than a fitting aided by a Trackman.

I dont want to be given a 14 degree driver because I hit down, I want to be coached to hit up instead.

I went down to Birr Fitting Centre for a driver fitting and got a lesson on Trackman to start with and then got fitted based on the Trackman numbers that I was generating based on that lesson.

Pro had me hit a few shots with my usual setup and swing. I was teeing the ball quite low which he explained was as a result of me hitting down with the driver thru impact. This was reflected in the Trackman numbers. He had me drop my hand at address, move my weight onto my right side and then get the sensation of hitting up. This completely changed my ball flight with the ball flying higher than I'd ever previously hit it. In terms of numbers, swing speed increased slightly with spin rate reducing. IIRC my carry increased by about 15 yards.

Paid €65 for a 1 hour 20 minute fitting which consisted of a 20 minute lesson. Also got fitted for a couple of wedges. Excellent service.

alxmorgan

Dan from the thedanplan also struggling to get a + AOA

http://thedanplan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dan-Plan-2013-04-21-Multi-Group-Report.pdf

ShivasIrons

alxmorgan wrote: »

Dan from the thedanplan also struggling to get a + AOA

http://thedanplan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dan-Plan-2013-04-21-Multi-Group-Report.pdf

One thing to consider is that Trackman measures the angle of attack from the center of the club, it is very possible for the center to be still descending while the face is starting to ascend, so angles of attack that are between 0 and -2 could actually have a face that has a positive angle of attack.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

One thing to consider is that Trackman measures the angle of attack from the center of the club, it is very possible for the center to be still descending while the face is starting to ascend, so angles of attack that are between 0 and -2 could actually have a face that has a positive angle of attack.

only by rotating the clubface open I would have thought?
(and even then that would increase the loft, not the AOA?)

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

only by rotating the clubface open I would have thought?
(and even then that would increase the loft, not the AOA?)

Not quite, if you consider the club travelling on an arc, the face reaches the bottom of the arc before the center of the clubhead, particularly for larger headed drivers the center could still be travelling downward at this point.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Not quite, if you consider the club travelling on an arc, the face reaches the bottom of the arc before the center of the clubhead, particularly for larger headed drivers the center could still be travelling downward at this point.

ok I see what you are saying, but I cant imagine that thats any more than 1 degree difference?
Have you seen any numbers to the contrary?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

ok I see what you are saying, but I cant imagine that thats any more than 1 degree difference?
Have you seen any numbers to the contrary?

It can be nearly two degrees. Just consider the size of some club heads, from the middle of the head to the face can be 2 inches or more, so you could could get 2 degrees difference between the two but it would depend on the overall arc the club is travelling on.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

It can be nearly two degrees. Just consider the size of some club heads, from the middle of the head to the face can be 2 inches or more, so you could could get 2 degrees difference between the two but it would depend on the overall arc the club is travelling on.

I just think that the swing is so flat with a driver that the difference in AOA of the different parts of the head would be minimal.
Interesting idea though!

uptheroyals

I've spent alot of time on trackman in last few months, very very hard to argue with it, its thrown alot of theories pro's have told me over the years out the window!! Its also improved my game a significant amount. Ive been on it with 3 different guys, 2 for fitting and one for coaching and the person giving you the information is definitely a big part!!

alxmorgan

uptheroyals wrote: »

I've spent alot of time on trackman in last few months, very very hard to argue with it, its thrown alot of theories pro's have told me over the years out the window!! Its also improved my game a significant amount. Ive been on it with 3 different guys, 2 for fitting and one for coaching and the person giving you the information is definitely a big part!!

Can you give us examples of some theories its debunked and what changes/improvements you've made ?

uptheroyals

Yeah sure, I guess the biggest one for me was understanding how attack angle influences the ball flight. Nearly all our tournaments are played on links golf and I've always struggled into the wind as either i would hit it too high or when I would hit a punch shot would hit raking hooks. By understanding that the more down I hit on it (like a punch shot) The more in to out the path of the club becomes, every other pro I had ever been to just said you flip your hands when really It was the path changing. The other thing it made me realise was my weak points, I always would have said driver was a weak point despite being long, however after doing the combine tests and looking at how close i put the ball from 60 and 70 yards, it showed me why some of the top guys are making more birdies. Everythings going the right direction though and so far I've had some pretty good results

Loire

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I've started to incorporate this bit of advice from Shawn Clement over the last 6 weeks. (about 3 mins into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68RZjdnVMs

Very simply, and he doesn't complicate it either, I've just stopped addressing the ball with the club face.
Instead, I address it about 3-4 inches behind it, closer towards the center of my stance and go from there.

It has helped me greatly, I've noticed a big improvement in distance

OK...I've stuck with this now and played 3 rounds and the improvements to my driving have been fantastic. I still hit the odd hook, but overall my drives are longer and straighter due to a much better ball flight. Thanks again AJ!

Loire.