Coalition given straight A's

Noreen1

riffmongous wrote: »

I don't get it sometimes, where were all the 'reform the seanad' groups and petitions the last few years? As soon as the government wants to get rid of it, it suddenly becomes a cornerstone of democracy. The Seanad as it is is a waste of everything, people will vote to retain it with the vague idea of improving it and as soon as the referendum results are in it will be forgotten about again, or better yet we will have a Seanad Reform Commission, which will of course deliver nothing practical and cost a fortune.

I've no idea, because I'm not a member of any such group.

I would agree that the Seanad, as it is, is not fit for purpose,

However, that doesn't alter the fact that the Government could, and should, imo, give the people a choice between reform, or abolition of the Seanad.

And it begs the question - why are they so anxious to abolish it?
Particularly since it would mean "party members" would lose their jobs?

Why not give said "party members" a chance of being elected in free and fair elections? If they lose their seats (and some of them undoubtedly, and deservedly, would!) - then, so be it.
The people would have spoken.

Without a properly functioning Seanad, we are very much at the mercy of a very small group of Ministers, who will tell us whatever it takes to get elected - and spend the rest of the time doing whatever they please, in the sure and certain knowledge that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, except vote them out at the next election - by which time they'll have a pension for the rest of their lives, at the very least.

That's a position that I don't want to find myself in, therefore I want to see the Seanad reformed - not abolished.

Slick50

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But a referendum on the abolition of SE is something that FG promised long before the last general election, so fair play to them for delivering it, eventhough a yes would put a lot of party members out of business.

They also promised no property tax. But my real problem with this is Enda's assertion that the seanad is useless because it didn't do anything to avert the boom to bust, when he and his cohorts did nothing either. Why not reduce the dáil by an equivalent number, and save even more cash.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

They also promised no property tax. But my real problem with this is Enda's assertion that the seanad is useless because it didn't do anything to avert the boom to bust, when he and his cohorts did nothing either. Why not reduce the dáil by an equivalent number, and save even more cash.

So we have less of the part that can make decisions and keep the part that has absolutely no influence on anything other than being a talking shop and keeping people like Callely and Healy-Eames afloat in politics?

Reform will not happen because the Dáil will never reduce their power, in absence of revolution the Seanad should be abolished.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

So we have less of the part that can make decisions

The " decisions" are made by the cabinet, fifteen people.

astrofool wrote: »

and keep the part that has absolutely no influence on anything other than being a talking shop and keeping people like Callely and Healy-Eames afloat in politics?

The rest are just along for the ride on the gravy train who do what they are told, or the "opposition" who are equally there for the ride, and the talk shop.

astrofool wrote: »

Reform will not happen because the Dáil will never reduce their power, in absence of revolution the Seanad should be abolished.

Abolishing it is not the answer. It should have far greater influence, if not direct power. If it is abolished it will never be reformed, if it remains, there is some scope for reform.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

Abolishing it is not the answer. It should have far greater influence, if not direct power. If it is abolished it will never be reformed, if it remains, there is some scope for reform.

The Dáil will never make a change to the Seanad that will make give it any more power, anyone who thinks they will is completely deluded.

The Seanad is and always will be an expensive unelected talking shop as long as it remains.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

The Dáil will never make a change to the Seanad that will make give it any more power, anyone who thinks they will is completely deluded.

Why never? it is a very defeatest attitude. Maybe with the current bunch, but there is scope for future governments, candidates to make changes.

astrofool wrote: »

The Seanad is and always will be an expensive unelected talking shop as long as it remains.

If expense is the real issue, then culling the dáil would be more productive.

nuac

Examination of and possible reform of the senate should have been on the Constitutional Commission

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

Why never? it is a very defeatest attitude. Maybe with the current bunch, but there is scope for future governments, candidates to make changes.

Then a future government can bring a referendum to establish a second house. Abolishing it's current form does not stop a future change to bring it back in a different form.

If expense is the real issue, then culling the dáil would be more productive.

They're reducing TD's by 8 this time, but I don't see how culling the Dáil where members votes do matter is better than the Seanad where they don't.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

Then a future government can bring a referendum to establish a second house. Abolishing it's current form does not stop a future change to bring it back in a different form.

That seems a long way around to the same point. It will be interesting to see what happens if the referendum supports the retention of the seanad. Will Enda try and legislate a way around that, like when his referendum on powers to investigate anybody was rejected.

astrofool wrote: »

They're reducing TD's by 8 this time, but I don't see how culling the Dáil where members votes do matter is better than the Seanad where they don't.

Why stop at eight, we have far too many politicians for the size of population, Enda said so.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

That seems a long way around to the same point. It will be interesting to see what happens if the referendum supports the retention of the seanad. Will Enda try and legislate a way around that, like when his referendum on powers to investigate anybody was rejected.


Why stop at eight, we have far too many politicians for the size of population, Enda said so.

You're arguing different points to what I replied to, but anyway:

Point 1: no sitting government will increase power to a second house, unless it's set up in a way that they have control of that power.

2: 9* + the seanad is a good start, and we can reduce further down the line.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

Point 1: no sitting government will increase power to a second house, unless it's set up in a way that they have control of that power.

That is not change then.

astrofool wrote: »

2: 9* + the seanad is a good start, and we can reduce further down the line.

That has yet to be decided.

COYW

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Not really, in that FF as the Government were responsible for regulation via the Regulator and the Dept of Finance and allowed the boom to continue, even inflamed it.

As I posted, it was FF or FG/Lab. The former had destroyed the country so someone else had to be put in to try and sort it, hence FG/Lab. The choice is so limited. As people get fed up with FG/Lab they may return to FF, not because they believe any of its bull, just because its the way it goes. Sad and pathetic.

Agree, and if FG/Labour were in government would things have been any different? Personally, I don't believe so. We would have FF in power now, "fixing the mess". You can just about put a cigarette paper between our options for government.

I see Declan Ganley and Prof. Ray Kinsella are holding a public meeting this week in Dublin regarding the creation of a new political party. Wait until you see the negativity with which that is received. A party built by a successful business person and a proven academic will be rubbished and slaughtered. Irish people dislike success and achievement in their politicians.

Slick50

COYW wrote: »

I see Declan Ganley and Prof. Ray Kinsella are holding a public meeting this week in Dublin regarding the creation of a new political party..

Any link? or details on this meeting.

COYW

Slick50 wrote: »

Any link? or details on this meeting.

There are posters around Dublin city centre for it. Here is an online article about it. The meeting is on in the Davenport hotel, Merrion St. Lower, on Wednesday @ 20:00.