Coalition given straight A's

Slick50

Today Enda Kenny gave himself and his Government cohorts, straight A's, when asked to assess their performance in office. He also claimed that FF were exclusively responsible for the countries financial collapse.

I'm just wondering what marvellous motions did any of them table while in opposition, that could have even helped avert our current economic woes.

mikom

A is for Assholes.

Silentcorner

Slick50 wrote: »

Today Enda Kenny gave himself and his Government cohorts, straight A's, when asked to assess their performance in office. He also claimed that FF were exclusively responsible for the countries financial collapse.

I'm just wondering what marvellous motions did any of them table while in opposition, that could have even helped avert our current economic woes.

Well to be fair he is half right...

Mr.Micro

Slick50 wrote: »

Today Enda Kenny gave himself and his Government cohorts, straight A's, when asked to assess their performance in office. He also claimed that FF were exclusively responsible for the countries financial collapse.

I'm just wondering what marvellous motions did any of them table while in opposition, that could have even helped avert our current economic woes.

Well considering the absolute mess that FG/Labour inherited then maybe Enda is right to credit the Government. Nothing that the current Government does will be right by many people as the public wanted a miraculous cure to all that FF caused. Credit has to be given to the Government for tackling an almost impossible situation and trying to put things right.

Meanwhile FF are having their backslapping Ard Fheis telling each other how wonderful they all are and dreaming up ways of finishing what they started..... ruining the country and selling us out.

tayto lover

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well considering the absolute mess that FG/Labour inherited then maybe Enda is right to credit the Government. Nothing that the current Government does will be right by many people as the public wanted a miraculous cure to all that FF caused. Credit has to be given to the Government for tackling an almost impossible situation and trying to put things right.

While still looking after the elite ...:rolleyes:

Mr.Micro

tayto lover wrote: »

While still looking after the elite ...:rolleyes:

Agreed, there lots of things that are wrong but the economy needs to be fixed. FG is keeping the cozy status quo, but if things get better, then voters will expect that it addresses the reforms it promised.

HemlockOption

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Agreed, there lots of things that are wrong but the economy needs to be fixed. FG is keeping the cozy status quo, but if things get better, then voters will expect that it addresses the reforms it promised.

You're either utterly naive or part of the elite

mikom

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Agreed, there lots of things that are wrong but the economy needs to be fixed. FG is keeping the cozy status quo, but if things get better, then voters will expect that it addresses the reforms it promised.

mañana

dh0011

Well since the present government took office they have never accepted responsibility for anything.

Also Enda promised a review of cabinet ministers during the life of the government and to get rid of the useless ones.

It seems that Jim Reilly who is the worst minister I remember is doing ok in Endas eyes. Also, Alan Shatter has created the most difficult environment between the judges and the government [same goes for the gardai].

I could go on but I am losing the will to type.

johnnydeep

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well considering the absolute mess that FG/Labour inherited then maybe Enda is right to credit the Government. Nothing that the current Government does will be right by many people as the public wanted a miraculous cure to all that FF caused. Credit has to be given to the Government for tackling an almost impossible situation and trying to put things right.

Meanwhile FF are having their backslapping Ard Fheis telling each other how wonderful they all are and dreaming up ways of finishing what they started..... ruining the country and selling us out.

no it doesn't. who would have thought enda would have time to create a boards account. its getting pathetic that while making a statement about how good the government is doing enda has to keep harking back to the f.f government. how long can they keep this up for. time to man up do what he promised to do in his election promises. he hasn't created one job, infact he has created an atmosphere an situation were the possibility for job creation is zero. add that to claims of victories at the e.u/e.c.b which are in fact nothing but smoke screens. enda is a gutless wonder

dh0011

you just reminded me of the five point plan and "get Ireland working"
not to mention "burn the bondholders"
...

Slick50

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well considering the absolute mess that FG/Labour inherited then maybe Enda is right to credit the Government. Nothing that the current Government does will be right by many people as the public wanted a miraculous cure to all that FF caused. Credit has to be given to the Government for tackling an almost impossible situation and trying to put things right.

What I'm asking though is... what initiatives or motions did either FG or LB come up with (in the previous decade while FF were f*cking up the economy) that could have helped avert this disaster.?... before they got into power.

As for what they are at now... they are patting themselves on the back for implementing FF policies, but blame them for the distasteful aspects. How often have we heard "our hands are tied"

Mr.Micro

HemlockOption wrote: »

You're either utterly naive or part of the elite

Certainly not the latter, lol. If utterly naive = Pragmatism and realism in view of the situation we are in then that is what I am.

Mr.Micro

Slick50 wrote: »

What I'm asking though is... what initiatives or motions did either FG or LB come up with (in the previous decade while FF were f*cking up the economy) that could have helped avert this disaster.?... before they got into power.

As for what they are at now... they are patting themselves on the back for implementing FF policies, but blame them for the distasteful aspects. How often have we heard "our hands are tied"

Would you not agree that stabilization of the economy is priority and then try to create jobs? 2 years is not nearly long enough to get all things right. Would you not also agree, that there is a fair amount of truth in that The Governments hands are tied, so long as we are involved with the Troika and until we are a sovereign nation again?

dh0011

if thats the case then all the pre elections promises were lies

Slick50

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Would you not agree that stabilization of the economy is priority and then try to create jobs? 2 years is not nearly long enough to get all things right. Would you not also agree that there is a fair amount of truth in that The Governments hands are tied so long as we are involved with the Troika and we are a sovereign nation again?

Why are you posting if you won't address the question? That is a rhetorical question.

Mr.Micro

dh0011 wrote: »

if thats the case then all the pre elections promises were lies

Not necessarily true as this Government could be in office for 2 more years to fulfill these promises. I personally never believe Politicians promises, no matter from whom or whatever party.

Mr.Micro

Slick50 wrote: »

Why are you posting if you won't address the question? That is a rhetorical question.

For one neither were in power but they were just as culpable IMO for not voicing opposition to FF. Who wanted to hear bad news or spoil the party? The public partied as well on their own volition. Having said that the problem was created and the current lot are attempting to deal with it. There is no magic wand or is it pain free.

Noreen1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Would you not agree that stabilization of the economy is priority and then try to create jobs? 2 years is not nearly long enough to get all things right. Would you not also agree, that there is a fair amount of truth in that The Governments hands are tied, so long as we are involved with the Troika and until we are a sovereign nation again?

Would you consider that increased job creation = more taxes, and less welfare payments, therefore contributing to economic stabilization?

Genuine question, and I'm not trying to answer for anyone else.

Slick50

Mr.Micro wrote: »

For one neither were in power but they were just as culpable IMO for not voicing opposition to FF.

No sh*t Sherlock.... the clue was in the question

I'm just wondering what marvellous motions did any of them table while in opposition, that could have even helped avert our current economic woes.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Who wanted to hear bad news or spoil the party?

If there had been reasonable control within the banking sector, it wouldn't have been bad news, the economy would still have thrived. The difference would have been, house prices would not have ballooned the way they did, and the whole system would not have imploded. The powers that be, within europe, have come up with brilliant new ideas for banking, like checking if the person they are lending money to will be able to repay it.???? Duh!

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The public partied as well on their own volition.

The old "we're all to blame, so no one's to blame."

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Not necessarily true as this Government could be in office for 2 more years to fulfill these promises.

So they may repeal the LPT within this term?.. No property tax was one of FG election promises.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I personally never believe Politicians promises, no matter from whom or whatever party.

How do you decide who to vote for then.?

Red Kev

Mr.Micro wrote: »

For one neither were in power but they were just as culpable IMO for not voicing opposition to FF. Who wanted to hear bad news or spoil the party? The public partied as well on their own volition. Having said that the problem was created and the current lot are attempting to deal with it. There is no magic wand or is it pain free.

They were in power in the county councils and there they did everything possible to whip on an unsustainable housing boom in the face of all economic sense. In many ways FG are as culpable in the mess as FF.

Why did they vote in huge rezonings without ever taking into account space for recreation, services such as schools and clinics, commuting infrastructure and so on.

And by the way FG are still involved in despicable rezonings, this is one where they have agreed to build a petrol station on a floodplain on the banks of the Shannon (I live 8 miles away), in a town with 3-4 stations already that doesn't need another one. BTW the land is owned by a FG councillor.

Mr.Micro

Red Kev wrote: »

They were in power in the county councils and there they did everything possible to whip on an unsustainable housing boom in the face of all economic sense. In many ways FG are as culpable in the mess as FF.

Why did they vote in huge rezonings without ever taking into account space for recreation, services such as schools and clinics, commuting infrastructure and so on.

And by the way FG are still involved in despicable rezonings, this is one where they have agreed to build a petrol station on a floodplain on the banks of the Shannon (I live 8 miles away), in a town with 3-4 stations already that doesn't need another one. BTW the land is owned by a FG councillor.

You may have missed this bit in my post.

Originally Posted by Mr.Micro
For one neither were in power but they were just as culpable IMO for not voicing opposition to FF.

Mr.Micro

Slick50 wrote: »

No sh*t Sherlock.... the clue was in the question
If there had been reasonable control within the banking sector, it wouldn't have been bad news, the economy would still have thrived. The difference would have been, house prices would not have ballooned the way they did, and the whole system would not have imploded. The powers that be, within europe, have come up with brilliant new ideas for banking, like checking if the person they are lending money to will be able to repay it.???? Duh!The old "we're all to blame, so no one's to blame."
So they may repeal the LPT within this term?.. No property tax was one of FG election promises.How do you decide who to vote for then.?

There was no regulation of the Banking sector, despite there being a regulator in office. FF were in a frenzy with the housing bubble and nobody was going to spoil their party. FG as I have stated, could have done more and were just as culpable in not being more vociferous in opposition. The whole financial system was rotten to the core and we are still waiting to discover the ( if ever) the true extent of the financial crisis via Anglo and the rest. Any warnings were ignored by Cowen and the Dept of Finance did nothing. I doubt if any opposition would have made any difference when the whole structure was rotten.

I vote for the party that I think can fix the country or will try and do the right thing. What choice did people have in the last election, FG/Labour or FF again. The latter was no option even for the extreme optimist. Promises made by politicians are just that. The clue is in the word politician.

Slick50

Mr.Micro wrote: »

There was no regulation of the Banking sector, despite there being a regulator in office. FF were in a frenzy with the housing bubble and nobody was going to spoil their party. FG as I have stated, could have done more and were just as culpable in not being more vociferous in opposition. The whole financial system was rotten to the core and we are still waiting to discover the ( if ever) the true extent of the financial crisis via Anglo and the rest. Any warnings were ignored by Cowen and the Dept of Finance did nothing. I doubt if any opposition would have made any difference when the whole structure was rotten.

That kind of contradicts Enda's assertion that it's exclusively FF's fault.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I vote for the party that I think can fix the country or will try and do the right thing

Yes, but how do you decide this, when you can't believe any of them.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The clue is in the word politician.

Really! :rolleyes:

Mr.Micro

Slick50 wrote: »

That kind of contradicts Enda's assertion that it's exclusively FF's fault.

Not really, in that FF as the Government were responsible for regulation via the Regulator and the Dept of Finance and allowed the boom to continue, even inflamed it.

Slick50 wrote: »

Yes, but how do you decide this, when you can't believe any of them.

As I posted, it was FF or FG/Lab. The former had destroyed the country so someone else had to be put in to try and sort it, hence FG/Lab. The choice is so limited. As people get fed up with FG/Lab they may return to FF, not because they believe any of its bull, just because its the way it goes. Sad and pathetic.

Red Kev

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You may have missed this bit in my post.

Nope, I didn't miss your point. You said....

but they were just as culpable IMO for not voicing opposition to FF.

I said that in councils they were not in opposition, they were in power, and where they were in power they did everything possible to flame the housing bubble and build communities without facilities or services. So they are as culpable of FF in many many ways for the bubble that occured. And as we know, and as we were forewarned bubbles burst.

Mr.Micro

Red Kev wrote: »

Nope, I didn't miss your point. You said....

I said that in councils they were not in opposition, they were in power, and where they were in power they did everything possible to flame the housing bubble and build communities without facilities or services. So they are as culpable of FF in many many ways for the bubble that occured. And as we know, and as we were forewarned bubbles burst.

I absolutely agree with you, that at local level they were all in it. In this County there was no difference between FF, FG or Labour when it came to rezoning and planning applications. For once all differences were put aside in the pursuit of greed. I am sure the same occurred throughout the country.

Slick50

Now Enda is promoting the abolition of the seanad, citing it's ineffectiveness to prevent the economic boom and bust as one reason. Yet not even the most ardent fan has managed to cite anything FG or LB came up with during the "boom" to avert disaster.

And, once again we are being told it's a good idea, to abolish it, because "they're doing it".

Fr Tod Umptious

Slick50 wrote: »

Now Enda is promoting the abolition of the seanad, citing it's ineffectiveness to prevent the economic boom and bust as one reason. Yet not even the most ardent fan has managed to cite anything FG or LB came up with during the "boom" to avert disaster.

And, once again we are being told it's a good idea, to abolish it, because "they're doing it".

But a referendum on the abolition of SE is something that FG promised long before the last general election, so fair play to them for delivering it, eventhough a yes would put a lot of party members out of business.

Noreen1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But a referendum on the abolition of SE is something that FG promised long before the last general election, so fair play to them for delivering it, eventhough a yes would put a lot of party members out of business.

The question I would tend to ask is why FG would want to abolish the Seanad, rather than reform it, and improve the Democratic process in so doing?

The problem with the Seanad, imo, is the fact that there are too many "party members" in business, in the first place.

The other problem, is that the Seanad is seen by some members as a reward, in the form of a rather exclusive "club" for "party members" or "friends", for that matter.

That was never what the Seanad was intended as.

It was intended as a check against the possible excesses of Government.
Functioning properly, it would be an excellent means of ensuring the best interests of the people were always considered by Government when enacting new legislation.

I would argue that the Seanad is in desperate need of reform - beginning with direct election of its members by the electorate, followed by giving the Seanad more power to directly stop, rather than delay, new legislation, where there is reason to believe that such legislation would cause an erosion of the democratic rights of the people, or cause undue hardship, a la "Bank Bailouts".

I would further propose that Senators be subject to direct Democracy, where they can be recalled by the electorate if they are not doing the job they were elected to do. (For the record, I'm strongly in favour of TDs also being subject to a recall system!).
I also propose that advice from Supreme Court judges (yes, more than one!) should be available to members of the Seanad, on request, whenever they consider new legislation. Just think what effect such a system would have had on the Bank Guarantee? Not to mention pressure from outside sources to maintain such a guarantee?

Democracy in Ireland could be vastly improved.
Right now, all the power pretty much lies in the hands of the Cabinet.
"Ordinary" TDs are subject to the party whip, and have little or no collective power. They are basically expected to be "Yes" men, who do what they're told, - or else!

The abolishment of the Seanad (rather than desperately needed reform) would only concentrate more power in the hands of the few.
IMO, this is a very unwise, even potentially dangerous, step to take.

As the saying goes: "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

riffmongous

I don't get it sometimes, where were all the 'reform the seanad' groups and petitions the last few years? As soon as the government wants to get rid of it, it suddenly becomes a cornerstone of democracy. The Seanad as it is is a waste of everything, people will vote to retain it with the vague idea of improving it and as soon as the referendum results are in it will be forgotten about again, or better yet we will have a Seanad Reform Commission, which will of course deliver nothing practical and cost a fortune.

Noreen1

riffmongous wrote: »

I don't get it sometimes, where were all the 'reform the seanad' groups and petitions the last few years? As soon as the government wants to get rid of it, it suddenly becomes a cornerstone of democracy. The Seanad as it is is a waste of everything, people will vote to retain it with the vague idea of improving it and as soon as the referendum results are in it will be forgotten about again, or better yet we will have a Seanad Reform Commission, which will of course deliver nothing practical and cost a fortune.

I've no idea, because I'm not a member of any such group.

I would agree that the Seanad, as it is, is not fit for purpose,

However, that doesn't alter the fact that the Government could, and should, imo, give the people a choice between reform, or abolition of the Seanad.

And it begs the question - why are they so anxious to abolish it?
Particularly since it would mean "party members" would lose their jobs?

Why not give said "party members" a chance of being elected in free and fair elections? If they lose their seats (and some of them undoubtedly, and deservedly, would!) - then, so be it.
The people would have spoken.

Without a properly functioning Seanad, we are very much at the mercy of a very small group of Ministers, who will tell us whatever it takes to get elected - and spend the rest of the time doing whatever they please, in the sure and certain knowledge that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, except vote them out at the next election - by which time they'll have a pension for the rest of their lives, at the very least.

That's a position that I don't want to find myself in, therefore I want to see the Seanad reformed - not abolished.

Slick50

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But a referendum on the abolition of SE is something that FG promised long before the last general election, so fair play to them for delivering it, eventhough a yes would put a lot of party members out of business.

They also promised no property tax. But my real problem with this is Enda's assertion that the seanad is useless because it didn't do anything to avert the boom to bust, when he and his cohorts did nothing either. Why not reduce the dáil by an equivalent number, and save even more cash.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

They also promised no property tax. But my real problem with this is Enda's assertion that the seanad is useless because it didn't do anything to avert the boom to bust, when he and his cohorts did nothing either. Why not reduce the dáil by an equivalent number, and save even more cash.

So we have less of the part that can make decisions and keep the part that has absolutely no influence on anything other than being a talking shop and keeping people like Callely and Healy-Eames afloat in politics?

Reform will not happen because the Dáil will never reduce their power, in absence of revolution the Seanad should be abolished.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

So we have less of the part that can make decisions

The " decisions" are made by the cabinet, fifteen people.

astrofool wrote: »

and keep the part that has absolutely no influence on anything other than being a talking shop and keeping people like Callely and Healy-Eames afloat in politics?

The rest are just along for the ride on the gravy train who do what they are told, or the "opposition" who are equally there for the ride, and the talk shop.

astrofool wrote: »

Reform will not happen because the Dáil will never reduce their power, in absence of revolution the Seanad should be abolished.

Abolishing it is not the answer. It should have far greater influence, if not direct power. If it is abolished it will never be reformed, if it remains, there is some scope for reform.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

Abolishing it is not the answer. It should have far greater influence, if not direct power. If it is abolished it will never be reformed, if it remains, there is some scope for reform.

The Dáil will never make a change to the Seanad that will make give it any more power, anyone who thinks they will is completely deluded.

The Seanad is and always will be an expensive unelected talking shop as long as it remains.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

The Dáil will never make a change to the Seanad that will make give it any more power, anyone who thinks they will is completely deluded.

Why never? it is a very defeatest attitude. Maybe with the current bunch, but there is scope for future governments, candidates to make changes.

astrofool wrote: »

The Seanad is and always will be an expensive unelected talking shop as long as it remains.

If expense is the real issue, then culling the dáil would be more productive.

nuac

Examination of and possible reform of the senate should have been on the Constitutional Commission

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

Why never? it is a very defeatest attitude. Maybe with the current bunch, but there is scope for future governments, candidates to make changes.

Then a future government can bring a referendum to establish a second house. Abolishing it's current form does not stop a future change to bring it back in a different form.

If expense is the real issue, then culling the dáil would be more productive.

They're reducing TD's by 8 this time, but I don't see how culling the Dáil where members votes do matter is better than the Seanad where they don't.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

Then a future government can bring a referendum to establish a second house. Abolishing it's current form does not stop a future change to bring it back in a different form.

That seems a long way around to the same point. It will be interesting to see what happens if the referendum supports the retention of the seanad. Will Enda try and legislate a way around that, like when his referendum on powers to investigate anybody was rejected.

astrofool wrote: »

They're reducing TD's by 8 this time, but I don't see how culling the Dáil where members votes do matter is better than the Seanad where they don't.

Why stop at eight, we have far too many politicians for the size of population, Enda said so.

astrofool

Slick50 wrote: »

That seems a long way around to the same point. It will be interesting to see what happens if the referendum supports the retention of the seanad. Will Enda try and legislate a way around that, like when his referendum on powers to investigate anybody was rejected.


Why stop at eight, we have far too many politicians for the size of population, Enda said so.

You're arguing different points to what I replied to, but anyway:

Point 1: no sitting government will increase power to a second house, unless it's set up in a way that they have control of that power.

2: 9* + the seanad is a good start, and we can reduce further down the line.

Slick50

astrofool wrote: »

Point 1: no sitting government will increase power to a second house, unless it's set up in a way that they have control of that power.

That is not change then.

astrofool wrote: »

2: 9* + the seanad is a good start, and we can reduce further down the line.

That has yet to be decided.

COYW

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Not really, in that FF as the Government were responsible for regulation via the Regulator and the Dept of Finance and allowed the boom to continue, even inflamed it.

As I posted, it was FF or FG/Lab. The former had destroyed the country so someone else had to be put in to try and sort it, hence FG/Lab. The choice is so limited. As people get fed up with FG/Lab they may return to FF, not because they believe any of its bull, just because its the way it goes. Sad and pathetic.

Agree, and if FG/Labour were in government would things have been any different? Personally, I don't believe so. We would have FF in power now, "fixing the mess". You can just about put a cigarette paper between our options for government.

I see Declan Ganley and Prof. Ray Kinsella are holding a public meeting this week in Dublin regarding the creation of a new political party. Wait until you see the negativity with which that is received. A party built by a successful business person and a proven academic will be rubbished and slaughtered. Irish people dislike success and achievement in their politicians.

Slick50

COYW wrote: »

I see Declan Ganley and Prof. Ray Kinsella are holding a public meeting this week in Dublin regarding the creation of a new political party..

Any link? or details on this meeting.

COYW

Slick50 wrote: »

Any link? or details on this meeting.

There are posters around Dublin city centre for it. Here is an online article about it. The meeting is on in the Davenport hotel, Merrion St. Lower, on Wednesday @ 20:00.