Irish Rail - Fine for Unpaid Fare

butch90

I was fined last month for using my dads travel pass to attend a funeral with my mother. Both parents are on disability allowance with social welfare travel passes. Im currently in college with no income at all.

I made the big mistake of using my dads pass as i did not have any money to make the trip. The funeral was for a family friend so i did not want my mother travelling alone. She is a holder of a travel pass which includes spouse.

I got stopped on the return journey and was issued the fixed penalty notice. i claimed full responsibility and took the punishment. I phoned the head office to pay the fine today. The man over the phone took the payment and then threatened me straight away with court action and he would be investigating the case.

does this now mean il be in court with a possible criminal conviction for such a small crime. i took the punishment but i think its way over the top to go and bring me to court now on such a small matter. il have to get free legal aid as i have no income which will be a burden to the taxpayer and i certainly under no circumstances will be able afford a big fine up to €1000 . im nearly a qualified engineer and this criminal conviction will ruin my chances of a job in Ireland.

Fair enough il pay for my actions with a €130 fine, but think its over the top to bring me to court.

Has anybody any experience on this matter with Irish rail

foggy_lad

butch90 wrote: »

I was fined last month for using my dads travel pass to attend a funeral with my mother. Both parents are on disability allowance with social welfare travel passes. Im currently in college with no income at all.

I made the big mistake of using my dads pass as i did not have any money to make the trip. The funeral was for a family friend so i did not want my mother travelling alone. She is a holder of a travel pass which includes spouse.

I got stopped on the return journey and was issued the fixed penalty notice. i claimed full responsibility and took the punishment. I phoned the head office to pay the fine today. The man over the phone took the payment and then threatened me straight away with court action and he would be investigating the case.

does this now mean il be in court with a possible criminal conviction for such a small crime. i took the punishment but i think its way over the top to go and bring me to court now on such a small matter. il have to get free legal aid as i have no income which will be a burden to the taxpayer and i certainly under no circumstances will be able afford a big fine up to €1000 . im nearly a qualified engineer and this criminal conviction will ruin my chances of a job in Ireland.

Fair enough il pay for my actions with a €130 fine, but think its over the top to bring me to court.

Has anybody any experience on this matter with Irish rail

Not only can you be charged with theft and fraud you can also be responsible for your father losing his free travel pass for letting you use it. Too many people are using travel passes which don't belong to them and there is thankfully a clampdown by transport operators which appears to be catching out some.

What exactly were you told by the person you spoke to? Were you told they were definitely taking a case against you? or was it just a threat of what is to come if you continue to steal from the DSP & Free travel scheme?

butch90

It wouldn't be deemed as theft as my father gave the pass to me to accompany my mother. However i could be charged with fraud im fully aware of that outcome. Thats the most destructive outcome to my career. I would be ruined.

I was given a law lecture by the officer who told me that they would be checking up cctv images to see had i used the pass on different occasions. I only used the pass that day and told him this. He replied that they would be investigating the matter further which could result in more fines and a court appearance.

Peppa Pig

butch90 wrote: »

Both parents are on disability allowance with social welfare travel passes.

Is her pass not a companion travel pass?
If she is then you were entitled to travel on that pass as her companion.

they would be checking up cctv images to see had i used the pass on different occasions.

What a load of nonsense. Are they going to check every journey ever made on bus, rail Luas and be able to zoom in to see a name on a travel pass :rolleyes:
Your man sounded like a right eejit or was having a very very bad day

butch90

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Is her pass not a companion travel pass?
If she is then you were entitled to travel on that pass as her companion.

Im nearly sure it states a spouse may accompany her

Peppa Pig

butch90 wrote: »

Im nearly sure it states a spouse may accompany her

It's worth checking. Old age passes are spouse but disability ones are companion.

Corkbah

butch90 wrote: »

It wouldn't be deemed as theft as my father gave the pass to me to accompany my mother. However i could be charged with fraud im fully aware of that outcome. Thats the most destructive outcome to my career. I would be ruined.

I was given a law lecture by the officer who told me that they would be checking up cctv images to see had i used the pass on different occasions. I only used the pass that day and told him this. He replied that they would be investigating the matter further which could result in more fines and a court appearance.

it may not be theft ...but the pass can be revoked due to illegal usage/abusive usage of the pass.

it is designated to one person ...and one person ONLY.

its quite possible that your mothers pass may have covered you at the time, but if not, its also possible that the person on the other end of the phone was just throwing out threats to frighten you....however, they can and sometimes do take people to court over petty grudges !

hopefully you'll think twice before doing the same again.

butch90

What a load of nonsense. Are they going to check every journey ever made on bus, rail Luas and be able to zoom in to see a name on a travel pass :rolleyes:
Your man sounded like a right eejit or was having a very very bad day

They know my departure and destination on that date. The officer reckons that even do i got the fine for the journey i could be fined for other journeys on the day. He also said they input the number issued on the travel pass into their system when issuing tickets.

It could be scare tactics and i hope so. I feel i have been punished fairly with the €130 fine.

butch90

Corkbah wrote: »

it may not be theft ...but the pass can be revoked due to illegal usage/abusive usage of the pass.

it is designated to one person ...and one person ONLY.

its quite possible that your mothers pass may have covered you at the time, but if not, its also possible that the person on the other end of the phone was just throwing out threats to frighten you....however, they can and sometimes do take people to court over petty grudges !

hopefully you'll think twice before doing the same again.

I have learned a big lesson that's for sure. its a massive fright and hopefully the matter will be closed with the fixed penalty notice. The pass will more than likely be revoked from what i was told by the officer.

refusetolose

pay the fare

or pay the price

foggy_lad

butch90 wrote: »

Im nearly sure it states a spouse may accompany her

All passes issued allow a spouse/partner to accompany the holder but her spouse/partner must be named on her pass as her spouse/partner.

Peppa Pig wrote: »

It's worth checking. Old age passes are spouse but disability ones are companion.

Not all disability passes are companion passes and many old age passes are companion passes, it is subject to application and a medical examination which should ascertain whether a pass holder needs a companion with them when travelling, such as those with more severe epilepsy and a list of other conditions which may leave a person incapacitated during their journey.

Losty Dublin

OP, did you pay the fixed penalty notice? Yes or no?

butch90

Losty Dublin wrote: »

OP, did you pay the fixed penalty notice? Yes or no?

Yes i paid the full amount today. The officer threatened me with more action after processing the payment then

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

OP, did you pay the fixed penalty notice? Yes or no?

butch90 wrote: »

I got stopped on the return journey and was issued the fixed penalty notice. i claimed full responsibility and took the punishment. I phoned the head office to pay the fine today. The man over the phone took the payment and then threatened me straight away with court action and he would be investigating the case.

it would appear the fine was paid

Losty Dublin

butch90 wrote: »

Yes i paid the full amount today. The officer threatened me with more action after processing the payment then

If you did then that is the end of the matter. The fixed penalty you paid is akin to a speeding ticket; you are alleged to have committed an offence. By paying up you admit guilt and in return Irish Rail close off the matter legally.

With that in mind, they are entitled to see if you have done this before and prosecute you for same if required. In all honesty he is just putting manners on you for risking your Dad's pass; hopefully you guys won't risk doing this again.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If you did then that is the end of the matter. The fixed penalty you paid is akin to a speeding ticket; you are alleged to have committed an offence. By paying up you admit guilt and in return Irish Rail close off the matter legally.

With that in mind, they are entitled to see if you have done this before and prosecute you for same if required. In all honesty he is just putting manners on you for risking your Dad's pass; hopefully you guys won't risk doing this again.

I have see Irish Rail takes passes and contact socail welfare about fraud and they will contact them about it for sure, major clampdown on this, you took a chance and got caught so you will have takes what comes your way.

Im nearly sure it states a spouse may accompany her

it does don't see why you needed the other pass and the Irish Rail staff menber who sold you the ticket at the station (if he did?) should have questions to answer for failing to do his job.

butch90

Yes he made it quite clear that social welfare will be contacted on this matter. the pass will be revoked for a year i think from what he said

Jamie2k9

butch90 wrote: »

Yes he made it quite clear that social welfare will be contacted on this matter. the pass will be revoked for a year i think from what he said

I don't think it will go to court but your dad will most likely have the pass taken. Mabye it would be worth contacting Irish Rail again and discussing the it further and possible a different member of staff.

Did you get the ticket with your dads pass or did your mother get both of them?

You can see where they are coming from as if the 1.1 million or so pass holders did what you did then everybody would be travling for free.

AlekSmart

butch90 wrote: »

I was fined last month for using my dads travel pass to attend a funeral with my mother. Both parents are on disability allowance with social welfare travel passes. Im currently in college with no income at all.

I made the big mistake of using my dads pass as i did not have any money to make the trip. The funeral was for a family friend so i did not want my mother travelling alone. She is a holder of a travel pass which includes spouse.

I got stopped on the return journey and was issued the fixed penalty notice. i claimed full responsibility and took the punishment. I phoned the head office to pay the fine today. The man over the phone took the payment and then threatened me straight away with court action and he would be investigating the case.

Does this now mean Il be in court with a possible criminal conviction for such a small crime. i took the punishment but i think its way over the top to go and bring me to court now on such a small matter. Il have to get free legal aid as i have no income which will be a burden to the taxpayer and I certainly under no circumstances will be able afford a big fine up to €1000 . Im nearly a qualified engineer and this criminal conviction will ruin my chances of a job in Ireland.

Fair enough il pay for my actions with a €130 fine, but think its over the top to bring me to court.

Has anybody any experience on this matter with Irish Rail

Having been already rebuked by posters in another thread ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84252049 ) for a percieved anti-youth bias in my responses to posts regarding Student difficulties on Public Transport,I therefore opened this thread somewhat warily.

I'm heartened to see such a great level of caring and understanding being displayed in this case,perhaps merited...perhaps not.

Even Foggy_Lad,one who is often incandescent with rage at the supposed reluctance of CIE staff to pounce upon fraudulent DSP Pass use,can only muster a muffled chirp.

Yet,here we have a post which touches SO many bases it's surreal...are we sure it's not some form of Wind-Up ?

I usually enquire early in these threads,as to the nature of the Educational Course being followed,however in this case I note it's an Engineering discipline (Im nearly a qualified engineer ),which suggests,not a freshman but a reasonably advanced student.

Firstly it would appear that it's a Non-Urban Free Travel Pass,with no Photo ID requirement,which underlines the absolute urgency of such a requirement ASAP,if not sooner.

Had the Photo ID been required it is unlikely even the OP would have chanced their arm,unless heavily disguised.

It's equally noteworthy that the OP's fall was not at the first fence,but at Beechers,second time round.

In this,I would enter Foggy_Lad mode and suggest that the IE Ticket Office Staff at the outset did not exercise sufficient vigilance,by demanding that the Free Pass be removed from the wallet and the signature checked.

The OP's problems are however twofold,with the Irish Rail issue being the lesser by a substantial margin.

That €130 Penalty Fare,paid and reciepted is as much as that company requires.
It's Revenue Protection procedures have,in this case,worked to plan,with the detection,pursuance and payment of the relevant amount.

However,the IE person in warning the OP of the possibility of subsequent Court Action,was IMO,referring to action by the DSP who are the owners of the actual document and who are responsible for the rules of the Scheme itself.

It needs to be borne in mind that there is no "Fine" involved here yet,as such can only be levied by a Court,what is involved up to this is IE's Penalty Fare system alone.

It's my opinion,that in the current climate,the OP could well be in a very precarious situation and one which they need to address very rapidly lest it spin out-of-control on them.

The OP made no initial mention of the Father giving them the pass,but rather of them using it.

Such minor issues can often be the making or breaking of a case if a Legal arguement were to follow on from this.

One thing is clear,and that is the OP's father,the Passholder,almost certainly now has to get involved in this,as if we are to believe the OP,his child will implicate him straightaway.

I'd also suggest that having been caught in such a clear cut manner that the OP might find it of benefit to tone the "attitude" down just a tad in references to the IE Staff dealing with the issue..

I was given a law lecture by the officer who told me that they would be checking up cctv images to see had i used the pass on different occasions. I only used the pass that day and told him this. He replied that they would be investigating the matter further which could result in more fines and a court appearance.

Again,the "Officer" was being factual and in this,doing the OP a favour at this early stage as it allows time for some form of mitigation/defence to be put forward.

I'd be kinda grateful for the heads-up to be honest,and for sure I would'nt be tapping out stuff like this...

What a load of nonsense. Are they going to check every journey ever made on bus, rail Luas and be able to zoom in to see a name on a travel pass
Your man sounded like a right eejit or was having a very very bad day.

They know my departure and destination on that date. The officer reckons that even do i got the fine for the journey i could be fined for other journeys on the day. He also said they input the number issued on the travel pass into their system when issuing tickets.

It could be scare tactics and i hope so. I feel i have been punished fairly with the €130 fine.

More Factual stuff from the IE "Eejit",but could be viewed as valuable information also,however at this point there is no "Punishment" involved,it is simply IE balancing it's books with Butch90 for this particular journey and then carrying out due-diligence by ensuring that Butch90 has'nt any other form which could be tidied up in the one case...Quite an efficient scenario I would think....Unusually so !!

I'm just not seeing enough "eejit" on the Irish Rail side of things here TBH,but if that tone reflects the OP's considered opinion on things then there's really not much more advice that can be usefully given here I'd suggest ?

Right now,if I were Butch90,and Butch90's Da,I'd be making tracks to my Local DSP Office and seeking out the individual SW Officer dealing with the Household Benefits Package,(Which,unless I'm mistaken,does have a provision for unforseen expenses including attendance at certain religious cermonies) then outline to that SW Officer all of the relevant details in as truthful a manner as possible,perhaps focusing on any time constraints or other factors which could be interpreted as skewing your Fathers judgement on this.

Irish Rail could turn out to be Butch90's greatest ally in all of this,as if their trawl draws a blank,thats a positive mark for Butch,and one which he should not be too quick to slag-off.

Butch and his Da need to get motivated on this asap,rather than sit and wait for stuff to happen,as all too often,the next step is the issuance of Legal Notices and the involvement of Lawyers,all stuff best avoided in the interests of sanity.

Have to apologise for the length of this response,and I have to reiterate my suspicions as to whether it's a wind up,but equally,if I were Butch,I'd say sweet FA about being a Student at all.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

In this,I would enter Foggy_Lad mode and suggest that the IE Ticket Office Staff at the outset did not exercise sufficient vigilance,by demanding that the Free Pass be removed from the wallet and the signature checked.

The op may well have travelled from one of the many unmanned stations on the network so would have had no opportunity to fraudulently obtain any ticket.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The op may well have travelled from one of the many unmanned stations on the network so would have had no opportunity to obtain any ticket

What about the TVM's?

Hilly Bill

OP, you have money to pay the fine but not for a ticket???????

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What about the TVM's?

You should read the first post.

Hilly Bill

I did

ProudDUB

butch90 wrote: »

It could be scare tactics and i hope so. I feel i have been punished fairly with the €130 fine.

You may think that just a fine is fair and sufficient punishment. Irish Rail don't, and it is their opinion that matters, not yours. If the possibility of prosecution was removed from the equation, you would have far more people dodging fares imo. If all people had to face was a fine, there would be more people thinking that it is worth the odd hit to their wallet every now and then, if it means that they get to ride free for the rest of the time.

The risk of being prosecuted is something that keeps a fair few people on the straight and narrow methinks. This is not the first topic that we have seen here where a poster is worried what implications a legal blot on their copy book may have for their future life, reputation and career prospects. Am pretty sure that it won't be the last one we see either.

I'd agree with AlekSmart, lessen the 'tude just a tad. You know what yer granny used to say - You catch far more flies with honey than you do vinegar !

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

The op may well have travelled from one of the many unmanned stations on the network so would have had no opportunity to fraudulently obtain any ticket.

Head of a Pin time,Foggy is'nt it....:P

I can appreciate the ambiguity here,as Butch90's post really does cut to the chase in relation to so much of what you and I regularly joust over.

So I suppose it's understandable that we should give a rousing Huzzah for even as basic an "Out" as the oul unmanned station,mind you that scenario may well explain the return journey catch,as the destination may well have been unmanned too when Butch90 agus a Mhamaí transited.

I'll suggest en equally rousing cheer for the IE Staff Member who did detect the misuse.....or would that be seen as ladling it on..?

Butch90's parents also appear to be a little unique in that both qualify for Disability Allowance related Free Travel in their own right,with his Mother's being a Spouse/Partner whilst his Fathers appears to be Pass Holder Only (?)

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What about the TVM's?

foggy_lad wrote: »

You should read the first post.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I did

Go on, explain what the two of you mean. Bonus marks if you can demonstrate the posts were on-topic and constructive.

Moderator

Hilly Bill

I think it explains itself Victor.

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

Go on, explain what the two of you mean. Bonus marks if you can demonstrate the posts were on-topic and constructive.

Moderator

As the op had used a free travel pass to travel he could not have got a ticket from any machine at the station. Op mentioned using the pass in the first post.

Hilly Bill

Foggy, the OP mentioned using the pass but didnt mention that he or she didnt have the opportunity the obtain a ticket like you said. In answer to your post, the opportunity was there via the TVM'S.
The OP didnt mention anything about the stations being unmanned or manned in the opening post, so any speculation as to what happened or what may have happened is jumping the gun a bit.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Foggy, the OP mentioned using the pass but didnt mention that he or she didnt have the opportunity the obtain a ticket like you said. In answer to your post, the opportunity was there via the TVM'S.
The OP didnt mention anything about the stations being unmanned or manned in the opening post, so any speculation as to what happened or what may have happened is jumping the gun a bit.

As the op was (fraudulently) using the travel pass he would not have had the option of getting aa ticket from the machine as they only issue tickets to paying passengers. Free pass holders must obtain a ticket from the booking office if it is open. I simply highlighted this to you aftet your comment about the op using the TVMs. Nothing more to it and doesn't require any further off topic response.