Do I really need a gait analysis?

cormie

So I was looking up about buying some new shoes for general fitness, this would involve a bit of running and anything else for general gym or other activities. I don't really do anything enough to warrant a specialist pair of shoes for each thing, other than basketball and I've never heard of gait analysis for basketball shoes and I've never had any leg problems from playing basketball.

So is gait analysis really necessary for those who won't be doing regular multi KM runs every other evening or even if there won't be high intense running and foot use, is it still worth it?

I was speaking to a friend who had it done in amphibian king and he said it was good but he said he just bought his next pair of shoes in the US when he was over and hasn't had a problem.

Sure maybe my basketball shoes would do me just fine for the odd jog?

the drifter

most places do them for free now. Get it done. if your doing any considerable distance running its well worth it.

Hanley

1) not really, but good shoes can help bad running form
2) most places do a crap job anyway
3) if you do get it done, I'd probably only get it done in amphibian king
4) BONUS TIP: ramp up your mileage very slowly to avoid injuries

cormie

Thanks, I had an induction at the gym and was being watched on the treadmill and was banging my heels pretty badly so it might be an idea to get an analysis.

Does your running style change if you get the proper shoes or will you always be a prolongator if you're prolongator (or whatever the term is called?) and it's just a matter of finding the same style of footwear with every shoe upgrade?

Would professional basketballers have their shoes custom fit with orthotics I wonder and should this be something everyone should do if they were going to be using any pair of shoes, whatever the sport, for heavy use?

re.mark.able

Please please please heed my advice and go minimalist with your running shoes.
If you run landing on your heel, you will probably get some kind of injury eventually.
Your basketball shoes should be pretty minimalist already and you probably have good ankle strength already from working on your toes so much already (as you should)
If you start wearing regular running shoes or orthotics when you play basketball it'll mess up your aggility.

I got my gait analysed before and got recommended some expensive 130E shoes with these massive soles that had shock absorbing gel in them but I still couldn't enjoy running.
I switched to minimalist and run in a pair of 40E euro and I can run faster and far more enjoyably with no pains at all, their the same shoes I wear day-in day-out so i can run whenever I want and not have to carry a spare pair with me.

Please do download the pdf at the bottom of the vivobarefoot page
http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000564.html
http://trainingclinic.vivobarefoot.com/

cormie

Thanks for your input. I definitely won't be wearing the regular trainers for basketball, the basketball ones I have are comfortable and have good ankle support etc too. The cushion isn't exactly small either, these are the exact ones I have: http://www.eastbay.com/product/model:180713/sku:25019401/nike-hyperfuse-mens/navy/white/?cm=searchnikehyperfuse

Can you link me to the shoes you got for 40eur?

Remember, the purpose of a new pair of shoes is not for "running", but just for general training which will include running, doing some weights etc, just something to wear around the gym or to wear going out for a cycle or doing classes. I wouldn't be a big enough runner to warrant the best of the best.

The style of the vivobarefoot on that link are pretty nice I must say, I'm not into multicoloured, luminous runners which most runners seem to be.

re.mark.able

I own the first two on this list, both were slightly reduced when bought: the onitsuka tigers were around 50 and the vivobarefoots were just under 40 but they're outdoor runners
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ONITSUKA-Unisex-Adult-Trainer-D227N-9984/dp/B005UTLB86/ref=sr_1_2?s=shoes&ie=UTF8&qid=1366822024&sr=1-2&keywords=onitsuka+tiger+mexico+66+cv
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivobarefoot-Breatho-Light-Running-VB220024M/dp/B005F0Z5SW/ref=sr_1_46?s=shoes&ie=UTF8&qid=1366820885&sr=1-46&keywords=vivobarefoot
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Merrell-Access-Black-Trainer-J39319/dp/B0058YA8D2/ref=sr_1_15?s=shoes&ie=UTF8&qid=1366820885&sr=1-15&keywords=vivobarefoot
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivobarefoot-Breezy-Black-Trainer-VB220030MBLK/dp/B009AVH256/ref=sr_1_19?s=shoes&ie=UTF8&qid=1366820885&sr=1-19&keywords=vivobarefoot

cormie

Thanks for the links. Well just going by style alone, the vivo ones listed 2nd in your links above look the best, or these ones here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivobarefoot-Mens-Neo-Trail-Trainer/dp/B0078J0ZGU/ref=pd_sim_sh_3

black of course. Unfortunately I'm completely ignorant with the technical side of things.

Are there not specific pairs for the type of runner you are as there would be in the regular runners which the gait is analysed on, or is there a chance I could get a gait done and recommended a similar pair to the vivo's or are they a completely separate ball game where no gait analysis is needed and because the way they are made should suit any type of runner?

The idea of something I could wear outdoor would be good too, in fact they vivo trail ones looks like they'd double up for a lot of things, if they could be used in the gym on treadmills, doing weights, for classes, outdoor cycling, walking and whatever else, they'd probably suit me best, again, I'm not a runner but I probably run badly, I won't be trying to beat any records, just for general fitness, my competitive side is only really shown in basketball which I have shoes for already

re.mark.able

cormie wrote: »

Are there not specific pairs for the type of runner you are as there would be in the regular runners which the gait is analysed on, or is there a chance I could get a gait done and recommended a similar pair to the vivo's or are they a completely separate ball game where no gait analysis is needed and because the way they are made should suit any type of runner?

You answered your own question.
Pretty much all the vivobarefoots do is what any shoes does - protect your foot from getting scrapped or punctured by anything on the ground. Your foot is already more than capable of absorbing the impact from the ground, provided you run properly. Shoes should only provide a protective (thin) barrier against laceration, not support - why would we evolve to be born with a foot that can't support itself or be run on without cushioning?
The trails are awesome but I would recommend ONLY wearing them outdoors - look at the soles, the grips on them just aren't made to be on smooth, indoor floors. If you get a regular pair of vivos you could use them out doors, but running on stoney/muddy trails won't suit them.
It's good that you're not looking to dive head first into running long distance because minimalist running takes time and patience to adjust to but pays off hugely

cormie

Thanks for the continued input. Ok so I guess I can either just go get a pair of these and hope to correct my running style, or go get the gait analysis and might be recommended a heavily cushioned shoe to adapt to suit my running style. Are they the options open to me?

I like the look of the vivo's, especially compared to some running shoes I've seen, but at the same time I'd like to know I'm not going to mess my legs up from running in something too light for me given that I haven't been building my muscles in running so wouldn't be as ready for them as a caveman the same age who has been moving about much more than the typical man of today for his whole life.

Would the trails be really unsuitable say on a treadmill? Would they be too grippy and stuff or would it onlly make a minor difference? What about these one? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivobarefoot-Mens-Aqua-Running-Shoes/dp/B009HL76AA/ref=pd_sim_sh_9 or these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivobarefoot-Mens-Neo-Running-Shoes/dp/B0078J1064/ref=pd_sim_sh_1

Is it a possibility that after getting a gait analysis done that they may indeed suggest a pair of vivo's or similar?

re.mark.able

They are your options yeah, but I guarantee that going down the gait analysis route will be around twice the price because they will recommend the best of the best (says the technology) shoe for you.

You won't mess your legs up if you're smart about it and besides you've said you play basketball which requires lots of foot, ankle and calf strength for all the manoeuvres and jumping, if anything i'd be inclined to think you're at an advantage to the average person starting minimalism.

They really wouldn't be suitable. I've worn mine indoors before and those grips are taller and more rigid than you think - like wearing golf shoes indoors. Those other two look perfect.

I would be in shock and awe if they did - it would like going into a pharmacist and instead of being given antibiotics you'd be given a bunch of citrus fruits and told to drink more water - or going to a dentist and instead of them telling you what toothpaste and mouthwash to get, telling you what foods you should be eating instead. You go to get your gait analysed in order to be recommended a pair of highly engineered shoes because that's the field they operate in.

And besides, I'm pretty sure any of the places that do gait analysis over here don't even stock these types of shoes

cormie

That's interesting stuff alright, I've heard a little bit about the bare feet running before with the five fingers and that. I've only been playing basketball for about 2 years, but playing a lot, thankfully no ankle issues, which is surprising considering I've had so many other injuries, am out for the last 3 months with tendinitus in the shoulder hence the reason for joining the gym to try build myself up to be as injury resistant as possible so want to concentrate on a wide range of body exercises and movements so cardio (running/cycling) weights, pilates, yoga and maybe learning to swim too.

I might give them a go unless somebody else comes in and starts arguing with ya

Do you know of any shops in Ireland that stock Vivo's at all? I haven't had the best luck ordering basketball shoes online so would rather a bricks and mortar where I can try them on even if it costs me a few quid extra.

re.mark.able

Well if someone starts a debate (hopefully) with me then I have one solid fact to base my argument on - there are no studies that prove wearing trainers is actually better for you in the slightest. You can compare trainers and their 'benefits' versus one another but they all lose out against a bare foot and proper technique - heel striking/jogging has only really been around since the 1970s, the 1960 olympic marathon was won by a barefoot runner. We really only wear trainers because everyone else does.

I don't have any first hand experience with shops that stock minimalist shoes but i know for a fact that Snow and Rock at dundrum shopping centre stock minimalist.
And well wouldn't you know it, there's a whole website dedicated to the very information we need - http://footwear.ie/

cormie

Thanks again, so any barefoot/minimalist brand would be good you reckon or should I stick with just vivo? Might pop into the carrickmines one on that site and see what they have.

re.mark.able

I'm no expert and I've only ever worn vivobarefoot.
I'd be a little wary of buying one of the brands that do both minimal and non-minimal because they are probably just doing it for the money - why produce both?
it's up to yourself, like with so many purchases, you don't always get it spot on the first time

cormie

Cool, thanks again, I'll check out the place in Ballyogan, their website isn't the best so probably best to pop in.

Hanley

You'd get a pair of NB Minimus in Elverys. Schuh often have Merrell Minimus shoes too. FWIW, I'd never go back to padded shoes after making the transition.

cormie

Great to hear some more support for minimalist, I'll try pick up a pair today so, thanks everyone!

nice_guy80

go to a proper podiatrist

the stuff they do in Elverys etc is just a marketing scam to get you to buy dearer runners

Hanley

nice_guy80 wrote: »

go to a proper podiatrist

the stuff they do in Elverys etc is just a marketing scam to get you to buy dearer runners

...and they're a scam to sell arch supports. Foot dysfunction probably shouldn't happen in isolation. There's usually an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

cormie

I always tend to go a bit overkill on my research into things, I was even questioning if I should start a thread on it to begin with or just go and buy a pair of runners like most people do. I think going to a podiatrist might be a bit excessive, I'm not sure? I think I'll try the minimalist shoes and if I'm having problems after a few months (I know it takes a while to build yourself up in them) maybe I should consider other options. Have thankfully never had any issues with my legs, ankles or feet, my knees are a bit creaky walking up stairs and stuff but that's probably a combination of having been quite overweight growing up and then not using my legs much either.

tmc86

Eleverys also have a buy 1 get 1 half price offer on all footwear and footy boots. Couldn't see the NB minimus on their website though.

discus

I swear by these, had my pair for 18 months now.

Haha, maybe I should include the link http://www.sportsdirect.com/uk-gear-pt-03-sc-mens-running-shoes-212110.

connollys

Those NB minimus are on special offer in Amphibian King in Galway

kevpants

As a powerlifter turned temporary runner I can vouch for minimalist and I'm 16stone of meat thumping around. No one needs massive lumps of foam on their feet, your achilles is a better shock absorber than any shoe. Start using it.

I don't understand the gait analysis thing. Like if you're a heel striker why would you buy a pair of shoes designed to help you continue to run in a way that almost guarantees injury?

It's like buying a bucket to fix the leak in your roof.

cormie

Thanks again folks!

popped into Irish Fit today who are listed on footwear.ie as a vevo stockist but they had a very small range, they only had grey trail ones and not in my size. They actually said there was a big surge in the barefoot sales but then it stopped and never really took off again.

I popped into Elvery's in Dun Laoghaire too and they didn't have the NB ones, they told me to check on the website for the other stores but looking at it, they only have trail minimus too. If the trail soles weren't going to be a problem on the treadmill I'd just go for the ones I linked to earlier probably as the style and colour is nice while also giving a bit more cushion and probably a bit tougher too if I need that.

I might just have to order online as even after ringing footwear.ie, they didn't sound like they had too much in stock either and they are the suppliers to all the other shops of vevo.

re.mark.able

Well that's one of the reasons I like telling people to go barefoot - I want to see another resurgence. I heard the trainers in westpark gym are taking a liking to them so hopefully they influence some people.

I ordered mine online from amazon. I had to send them back to get a smaller size but if you go into a shop, try on a pair of vivos (whether they're the ones your want or not) in the right size and then order - you'll be getting a smaller size than you expect. I'm usually a ten and my nines are still a little big on me

cormie

Thanks again, I might just go with Amazon alright if I can't find anything local. Tried on a size one size too small and it actually felt ok but when I stood up it felt tight so I'll probably just go for my regular size. I'm half tempted to go for the trail ones but I guess I should stick with the regular.

cormie

What about merrell? These ones look sweet: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Merrell-Trail-Olympia-Trainer-J85523/dp/B004MAASPG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366919626&sr=8-2&keywords=minimalist+running+shoes if they were a darker navy instead of blue I'd have bought them by now That's the kinda of style I like, but a littler darker navy or grey.

re.mark.able

Yeah, i almost bought those ones in orange and black. Do whatever makes you happy.
Don't forget, your feet will stretch them out so maybe getting that smaller size is good? there's not a whole lot to them so you'll have them stretched a bit with only a couple of wears.

brokenarms

I got it done in ballymount. And now i have osteoarthritis of the knee.

Running days are well gone at 37.

I was fine before I got insoles made up.

Take everything with a massive pinch of salt.

Hanley

I've Merrell trail gloves. Love them. Got me around Connemara Challenge and Gaelforce West.

cormie

Have you used them indoors at all much Hanley? On a treadmill or similar? The soles appear a bit more neutral than the vevo trails so they may be ok as an all rounder?

cormie

I see Schuh in Dundrum have a pair in stock, which I've reserved, I'll go try them on anyway. They are a good €30/35% dearer which is a bit of a chunk, unless I grab a student to do the purchase and get 10% off

Hanley

While you're in schuh, go into Elverys and Snow&Rock too. Both usually have barefoot style collection.

cormie

Cool, will check them out too

hooplah

Hanley wrote: »

FWIW, I'd never go back to padded shoes after making the transition.

Is that just for running Hanley or for walking around etc too?

re.mark.able

hooplah wrote: »

Is that just for running Hanley or for walking around etc too?

I can't speak for him but I don't even stand in padded shoes anymore - forcing my foot into a 'supported' position - complete nonsense

cormie

Pity they don't do safety barefoot shoes, be handy for work

nice_guy80

Hanley wrote: »

...and they're a scam to sell arch supports. Foot dysfunction probably shouldn't happen in isolation. There's usually an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree

however, I got orthotic insoles a few years back (to help sort out knee and other injury issues that kept occuring on one leg which was shorter than the other) and I tried to wean myself off them last year.
found myself getting pains up my shins, around ankles etc

I only wear them in my shoes for work - standing around a lot
don't use them for sport

tmc86

How have people adapted to barefoot/minimal running shoes, do you have to start off with short runs to get used to the runninng style or what's the best way of doing it?

Currently run 2-3 times a week before work - mix of concrete, grass and beach and would be interested in a pair of barefoot runners

kal7

I like the barefoot principles, but beware of moving from having a heel of about 8-10 degrees then dropping straight to zero, this transition will cause some people to have issues with achilles tendon. Like the fact that shops selling the barefoot are warning people of this.

I would echo the advise to increase running slowly, I say to take 18 months to make the adjustment from years of supportive runners to barefoot. many athletes use an intermediate step. You can go straight but care needed and probably reduced volume of training.

re.mark.able

tmc86 wrote: »

How have people adapted to barefoot/minimal running shoes, do you have to start off with short runs to get used to the runninng style or what's the best way of doing it?

Currently run 2-3 times a week before work - mix of concrete, grass and beach and would be interested in a pair of barefoot runners

http://trainingclinic.vivobarefoot.com/

download the pdf at the bottom of this webpage and watch a video or two on youtube. They'll explain the form (which is pretty instinctive given enough time) and stretches to practise to get your flexibility and balance ready.

When it came to running, I was running 3 - 4 times a week between 4 and 8 km and I had to more or less act as if i was in rehab - running with around the same frequency but running only like 1 kilometre at a time, building up very slowly.
If your form is good surface doesn't matter, neither does your shoe - you're just keeping your feet from getting scratched) - but no matter what there is a lot of muscle to be gained in your ankle - it has to take your full (as full as it can be with your forward momentum) weight.
So yes, it is like starting from absolute scratch again, as if you're never run before in your life.
- which gives me an idea, what do people think of adapting the ever-popular 'couch to 5k' for barefoot running? good model?

tmc86

Thanks, I'll take a look at that and watch a few vids. I don't like the idea of almost starting from scratch, not the most patient person, but obviously the benefits will be better in the long run!

cormie

In Dundrum now, just seen nb minimus in champion for 57eur,same ones 100 in Elverys, not sure I can justify 110 for the others comparing both..

brokenarms

The thing i found with gait analysis is that they do correct your gait. But with me it changed the way my knee and hip took the strain.
I over pronate fairly badly and asics and those fancy pants cutoms insoles cured it. I seen it on the screen. My ankle was straight and strong when landing.

But it put all the pressure to the outside of my knee. I was expecting a bit of pain from it so I ran on. This damaged my knee to the point where its sore all the time now even after 1 years rest. In fairness I should have stopped sooner.
My thoughts on the issue are. You run the way you run and walk the way you walk. You have been doing it since you first walked and its the system that works for you. When you let these so called experts mess with that formula, you could be asking for trouble. Now I just use flat with a little arch support. And tramadol for the pain. Be careful with these quacks .

Bombbastic22

brokenarms wrote: »

The thing i found with gait analysis is that they do correct your gait. But with me it changed the way my knee and hip took the strain.
I over pronate fairly badly and asics and those fancy pants cutoms insoles cured it. I seen it on the screen. My ankle was straight and strong when landing.

But it put all the pressure to the outside of my knee. I was expecting a bit of pain from it so I ran on. This damaged my knee to the point where its sore all the time now even after 1 years rest. In fairness I should have stopped sooner.
My thoughts on the issue are. You run the way you run and walk the way you walk. You have been doing it since you first walked and its the system that works for you. When you let these so called experts mess with that formula, you could be asking for trouble. Now I just use flat with a little arch support. And tramadol for the pain. Be careful with these quacks .

I had the exact same thing. I was just reading some blog about someone else who had it too. It was thebarefoot something or other, pilgrimage or something like that.

I personally think orthotics are a load of crap that are just a cash cow fix to a problem that was caused by bad running form that was created by running in shoes in the first place.

A little googling and I think you'll find that a lot of the time orthotics are offer temporary relief but ultimately lead to swapping one injury for another injury.

Bombbastic22

Bombbastic22 wrote: »

I had the exact same thing. I was just reading some blog about someone else who had it too. It was thebarefoot something or other, pilgrimage or something like that.

I personally think orthotics are a load of crap that are just a cash cow fix to a problem that was caused by bad running form that was created by running in shoes in the first place.

A little googling and I think you'll find that a lot of the time orthotics are offer temporary relief but ultimately lead to swapping one injury for another injury.

thebarefootpilgrim.com - just found it again

cormie

Well I ended up going for the New Balance Minimus MT10 for €57 in JD (sorry, I said Champion above, at least it used to be Champion).

Have them on now wearing them around the house, first thoughts... well they aren't too much different to regular casual shoes I've been wearing. I think there's a 4mm drop on them, I'd say there's a good 13mm in the sole in places, they certainly don't feel barefoot but if they are made for running and are more moulded to my feet than regular running shoes and will give the advantages mentioned above then I'm happy with them

I tried my regular size but they seemed to tight so tried a size up, I think I would have been perfect in the half size between but they didn't have one.

Bombbastic22

cormie wrote: »

Well I ended up going for the New Balance Minimus MT10 for €57 in JD (sorry, I said Champion above, at least it used to be Champion).

Have them on now wearing them around the house, first thoughts... well they aren't too much different to regular casual shoes I've been wearing. I think there's a 4mm drop on them, I'd say there's a good 13mm in the sole in places, they certainly don't feel barefoot but if they are made for running and are more moulded to my feet than regular running shoes and will give the advantages mentioned above then I'm happy with them

Ah, they're okay. I have a pair of Vivo's barefoots myself but I think they are way over priced for the amount of materials/design that goes into them.

It's kind of a contradiction to be buying 'barefoot' shoes though it seems to be an ever growing/thriving industry.

cormie

Hmm, just googled the exact model and I'm not sure if this is a true barefoot shoe, http://newbalancevictoria.com/component/page,shop.product_details/category_id,23/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,1220/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,84/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=23&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1220&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=84&vmcchk=1

looks like it's a mix of both from that description? Could be good for transition or should I bring it back and go for the merrells?