Do you regret not going to college

wolfpawnat

I only got in one semester of college. regret having to come out, but not why I had to (creche fees) I get dirty comments off the MIL now about not being educated. I never let her think it annoys me, but nothing annoys me more.

Then again my partner is in college and hates it, he just wants to be out working. So do a lot of those in his course. I think studying something can often take the grá for something away.

Kevhog1988

Like many others here I'm the first generation of our family on both sides to attend college. Spent 3 years full time and two years part time getting two honours degrees and im now working in the uk. However i can honestly say the happiest times i had during them 5 years was when i was working on building sites during the summers or days off. Is gone to the stage now where im well qualified with loads of experience in the construction industry but im stuck in the office 90% of the time fighting main contractors for money. Wasnt what i signed up for so im waiting until im 25 to do some re-training

Grayson

Three Seasons wrote: »

Would you not just go to a library and educate yourself for free?

having a structure is nice. It means you don't miss out on certain areas. Plus I'm also doing maths. There are times you need to sit there and have someone explain it to you.

And finally, I can't get an increase in paygrade without a degree. So work wise it made sense. (I should mention I started this course before i started this job. But i took two years out in the middle. So although starting college wasn't influenced by the paygrade thing, finishing college is )

djflawless

flippin delighted i didnt go to college.was all up for going but in the end, after a lot of thinking, i realised if i wanted to turn into a part time alcoholic snob nose like most of my mates that went for third level, i could have done it at home
not to mention the constant stress/costs of "free education"

Mr Benevolent

Most of the well-paid people I know didn't go to college. College is irrelevant now unless you want a defined profession. Many people do go back to college part time to further their careers in specific ways.

Three Seasons

token101 wrote: »

I don't think "Went to library" would really hold up on a CV to be honest.

But if you're repeatedly in education due to "addiction to education" then you are there for the education, not to put anything on a cv. You can quench your addiction a lot cheaper at a library.

If you are addicted to having numerous letters after your name that's another issue altogether.

AlekSmart

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I only got in one semester of college. regret having to come out, but not why I had to (creche fees) I get dirty comments off the MIL now about not being educated. I never let her think it annoys me, but nothing annoys me more.

Then again my partner is in college and hates it, he just wants to be out working. So do a lot of those in his course. I think studying something can often take the grá for something away.

Interesting post,wolfpawnat.

It segways nicely to a thread on Commuting & Transport which we both are involved in,and does,I feel give a little broader perspective to both threads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056928201

Not quite sure what Mods could do,but there's a tie-in for sure

I have a deepening and somewhat dispirited line of thought that sees us as being a race not too well disposed to Education at all,particularly the hard,lonely slog which is required to really achieve academic results.

We know by now that Irish 3rd Level Institutions have gotten themselves into something of a bind on the issue of their grades.

Three years ago the issue finally made the surface,but,in reality the major Graduate employers had been Hmmmming for quite a while.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/john-walshe-rising-degree-of-alarm-at-thirdlevel-grade-inflation-26637073.html

Your point about your partner's attitude,and particularly your MIL's (:eek:) really does reasonate with me,as in my line of work I tend to see this on the faces and in the overheard conversations of the substantial numbers of Students I deal with daily.

I see the problem as starting far earlier in the education process,and it not being all syllabus related either.

We appear to have lost the ability to recognise,and offer alternatives to those who are not of an Academic bent,of which,I suspect,there are large numbers.

Just like the Country's current population itself,I'm decidely unsure whether Ireland can (academically) support the number of Universities we currently have.

It's not only in Property and Finance that we appear to have lost our way ?

Hoop66

Again, I did go to college and did post-grad too. I don't really use any of it in my current role, which I don't foresee changing.

I don't feel like I wasted my time or money, but I do think "what was the point?", other than to accrue academic qualifications.

I had more fun as a "dropout" in the years after college than I ever did at college, but that may the times - late 80s early 90s.

Hidalgo

Was fairly decent in school but never really pushed/applied myself in the Leaving Cert as I didn't know what I wanted to pursue at the time (2000). Also lots of work available so I wasn't bothered about college either way.

Always had it in my head to go at some stage as construction work was grand but never saw myself doing it till 65-70.

In 2007, it was either leave Ireland again or get a degree and leave, I chose option B and I'm lad I did, currently 2/3 of my through a masters, finishing in July.
I'm hopeful that the decision to go to college as a mature student will make it easier to get a job abroad (no interest in living in Ireland for now, even if the economy was good).

The one piece of advice I'll throw out there is that it's never too late to go to college. If circumstances allow you to and its something you want to pursue, go for it.

Andy-Pandy

Its never to late to go back to college, i'm just about to turn 36 and just about to finish 4th year. It's been a hard slog, but its been worth it.

bette

Hidalgo wrote: »

The one piece of advice I'll throw out there is that it's never too late to go to college. If circumstances allow you to and its something you want to pursue, go for it.

For the more learned, college educated, cream of the Irish workforce:

Advice; a wise man won't need it and a fool wont heed it.

_Kaiser_

Hoop66 wrote: »

Again, I did go to college and did post-grad too. I don't really use any of it in my current role, which I don't foresee changing.

I don't feel like I wasted my time or money, but I do think "what was the point?", other than to accrue academic qualifications.

Exactly.. I think you've hit the nail on the head there

A lot of college courses, like the LC, seem more oriented towards gathering points and paper qualifications than actually teaching people things that will be of use to them in the real world.

Even in my course, there was a lot of time spent on programming (although it wasn't supposed to be a programming course) and most of the tech (software/OS/hardware) stuff we did was already outdated when we graduated.

I joined one of the multinationals then as I said above and to be honest learned a lot more from just working away and having an interest in getting ahead than anything I did in college. I started on the phones and just worked up to where I now manage the IT support department in my current company.

I think as well that a lot of people use college as an excuse.. I know someone who was forever "going to college" in her 20s/30s rather than pushing herself in her career and then wondered why she wasn't getting anywhere.

That's not saying college isn't important/relevant at all, but I think that without drive and a desire to achieve beyond certs and qualifications it's meaningless

Hidalgo

bette wrote: »

For the more learned, college educated, cream of the Irish workforce:

Advice; a wise man won't need it and a fool wont heed it.

Surely there's someone in between those two pillars.;)

Grayson

bette wrote: »

For the more learned, college educated, cream of the Irish workforce:

Advice; a wise man won't need it and a fool wont heed it.

And if you do something you enjoy, you'll never regret the time.

ruthiepie

I'm actually working in a University at the moment and its amazing to see people who love their courses and genuinely love every second of the Uni experience. I only lasted 1 semester in college, picked the wrong course and really really hated it in that short amount of time. Luckily enough was able leave, do an ECDL and that was enough to get me started working. Over the years I've gotten so much different experience in workplaces that I think that does work in my favour BUT I'm currently looking to switch jobs at the moment and it does feel kind of sad that when they ask you what's your highest education, ah that would be my ECDL.

I don't know if I was suited for college though, I hated ever second of it, and even if I had taken a different course, I think it would have gone the same way. I would def be one of those people who wouldn't learn anything until the night before the exams so I don't think that would have worked well for me. As it is I think I made the right choice.

bette

Hidalgo wrote: »

Surely there's someone in between those two pillars.;)

There are many in between those two pillars. But what they do and what it means to them is a thousand shades of grey. What that means requires a masters of some sort...

wolfpawnat

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting post,wolfpawnat.

He wanted the degree, but his mother thought it a "dossers life" and "sure it's only cats and dogs" (veterinary) after years of listening to that, he finds himself resenting it all. That and there are politics within the course with certain students that just make daily stuff annoying too, but as he said, thats in ever work place and everywhere else in life too.

I get jealous some days, he's complaining about being in college, I complain about not being in college. Far away hills and all that I suppose. We always want what we can't/don't have.

Sleepy

I wouldn't regret my time in college at all: I had a blast.

I do, however, regret the lack of quality of my degree (B.Comm). While set up as a 3 year course, the level of material could have been covered in 9 months. There was way too much catering for the morons with the same type or rote-learning we'd done for Leaving Cert and hardly any actual academic analysis or thought encouraged. I remember a failure rate of over 80% when our management accounting lecturer set us an exam that tested whether his students actually understood what they were doing as opposed to simply knowing that figure A went into slot B.

We learned sound-bites from the great academics (Porter, Kaplan, Drucker etc.) but none of their texts ever featured in the reading lists: the lecturer's own publication summarising the various theories of these great minds was considered good enough for undergrads :rolleyes:

I had a handful of good lecturers but they were wasted on the courses they were assigned to teach us. A few, who hadn't been in the job long enough to become utterly jaded by it were great if they realised you had a genuine interest and would discuss theories with you over a coffee/pint (my favourite on discovering I'd read outside of his course took the opposite stance to the author I'd just quoted and debated with me over pints for a good two hours before concluding with his own opinion that neither of the viewpoints were correct as neither were nuanced enough). That was the standard I expected of a university education and I was sorely disappointed when the reality was that I was effectively in a degree mill.

I do sometimes wonder whether this was due to the demographic change in the student population brought about by the introduction of free 3rd Level Fees or whether the ideal of a University as a place for higher education has always been a bit of a put-on...

parc

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He wanted the degree, but his mother thought it a "dossers life" and "sure it's only cats and dogs" (veterinary) after years of listening to that, he finds himself resenting it all. That and there are politics within the course with certain students that just make daily stuff annoying too, but as he said, thats in ever work place and everywhere else in life too.

I get jealous some days, he's complaining about being in college, I complain about not being in college. Far away hills and all that I suppose. We always want what we can't/don't have.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain that bit in bold.

So she's giving you grief for not having a degree, and then simultaneously giving her son grief about getting a degree because it's a dosser's life? And from what I gather he's training to become a vet, and she thinks it's "cats and dogs". If that's the case what constitutes as a valid life/career path in her opinion?

Sorry just want to be sure before I pass judgement on this woman

wolfpawnat

parc wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain that bit in bold.

So she's giving you grief for not having a degree, and then simultaneously giving her son grief about getting a degree because it's a dosser's life? And from what I gather he's training to become a vet, and she thinks it's "cats and dogs". If that's the case what constitutes as a valid life/career path in her opinion?

Sorry just want to be sure before I pass judgement on this woman

She thinks Veterinary Medicine is a dossers life. 3am calls to pull calves, testing for 3 hours straight in the píssing rain and having to deal with hissing, clawing cats and kicking horses is all "dossing" to her.

He was in Medicine, but he went in for the wrong reasons and left it to pursue Veterinary, because that had been what he wanted to do since he was about 14 (he was 23 going back to college) She loved the bragging rights that came with having a child in a fancy course :rolleyes: regardless of his feelings on the subject. She felt it would be a cushier life as a doctor and that he would walk into a GP position (small town idiot who has not worked a day since she said "I do" with little knowledge of how academics and all that really work)

Nodin

wolfpawnat wrote: »

She thinks Veterinary Medicine is a dossers life. 3am calls to pull calves, testing for 3 hours straight in the píssing rain and having to deal with hissing, clawing cats and kicking horses is all "dossing" to her.

He was in Medicine, but he went in for the wrong reasons and left it to pursue Veterinary, because that had been what he wanted to do since he was about 14 (he was 23 going back to college) She loved the dragging rights that came with having a child in a fancy course :rolleyes: regardless of his feelings on the subject. She felt it would be a cushier life as a doctor and that he would walk into a GP position (small town idiot who has not worked a day since she said "I do" with little knowledge of how academics and all that really work)

Sounds like a charming person alltogether.

Eoin

I only did a year in a VLC and then started working after that.

I sort of regret missing out on a few years of being a student - doing a J1 and all that stuff - but career-wise I am pretty sure that my work experience made up for a lack of a degree. Lots of jobs I've applied for have specified a degree, but it's never actually been a factor for me.

My employer has an educational assistance program, so I'm thinking of doing a part-time degree with the OU. It'll be a hard and long slog, but at least I know for sure I'd be studying something I'm interested in, which isn't something I could say in my teens when I filled in my CAO form.

md23040

Most third level degrees are mere bits of paper that allows perspective employers to quickly and crudely differentiate applicants and that’s really the only practical benefit.

Most third levels courses and masters (not all) are complete and utter padded out rubbish that takes three to four years to complete and offer little benefit to employers.

Over the last 25 years, third level in itself within the UK and Ireland has become too bloated with too many employees, and has become an industry within itself, and needs to be severely restricted as a government instrument.

There are many professional courses obviously that are a benefit e.g. law, accountancy, medicine, sciences, construction studies, architecture etc, to name a few, with various offshoots from this, but degrees in marketing, most business degrees, economics, social studies, combined arts etc, or any other such course that offers no intrinsic practical skill necessary to employment is in my opinion a big fat waste of space that should not be subsidised.

If you look at the amount of billionaires entrepreneurs (who outnumber three to one to those educated) most realised they had the practicality within themselves, self-drive, inbuilt business acumen and quickly learned that college had little to offer them. As mentioned by others, IT is out of date most times it reaches college curriculum text book, and within that sector Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates are all but a few prime examples of drop outs.

Many fortune 500 CEO’s have no formal education at third level. Terence Leahy worked from stockroom to CEO of Tesco and turned it into one of the most prolific and profitable global brands, when he retired Philip Clarke took over and screwed up the brand. His business degree from Liverpool University hasn’t helped much. Many successful people in the business world have no degrees, so don’t fret if you do not have one.

Maybe for me its pot calling the kettle black having gone to college years ago, but seriously the amount of graduate airheads that I've had to interview over the years who are ill-equipped or prepared with the practical skills or common sense necessary to succeed in the work place is IMO getting worse on a yearly basis.

Madam_X

I dropped out - and regretted it pretty soon after, so was well keen to get back, and loved it when I did.

College isn't for everyone of course - and there's nothing wrong with not going to college. But when people are really defensive about not going to college by sneering at those who did (like a few posts on this thread)... I'm thinking to myself "The lady doth protest too much."

And an education is valuable in and of itself. Unless a specialist course, its sole purpose is not to get you a job. Having a college education on your CV is hardly going to be a hindrance, even if it isn't directly linked to the job (unless it causes you to be viewed as over-qualified).

md23040

Madam_X wrote: »

IAnd an education is valuable in and of itself. Unless a specialist course, its sole purpose is not to get you a job. Having a college education on your CV is hardly going to be a hindrance, even if it isn't directly linked to the job (unless it causes you to be viewed as over-qualified).

What's is the point of incurring costs of €60k for a three year course shared by both the exchequer and personal if it does not intrinsically increase career prospects, income ability, and improved tax yield for government.

Why become a debt slave if there's no financial benefit and why should the state heavily subsidise such activity?

DaveDaRave

I never went.
still got a first though

arybvtcw0eolkf

I didn't go to college.

I didn't even do the leaving cert, and neither did any of my friends.

At the time we didn't have the 'Junior' cert either, we'd the 'group or inter'.

I can't regret not going to college because it wasn't available to me or my friends in Ballymun at the time.

However I'm thankful that I'm in a position that I've seen my son through college, and my daughter is entering college this year.

Hopefully because of this my children won't have to work two or three jobs to make a better life for their children, but who knows.

I'd like to gain a college degree as a personal achievement but I've more pressing matters for the next five years ~ so I've no regrets atm.

As a personal goal I'll most likely get one.

parc

md23040 wrote: »

Most third level degrees are mere bits of paper that allows perspective employers to quickly and crudely differentiate applicants and that’s really the only practical benefit.

Most third levels courses and masters (not all) are complete and utter padded out rubbish that takes three to four years to complete and offer little benefit to employers.

Over the last 25 years, third level in itself within the UK and Ireland has become too bloated with too many employees, and has become an industry within itself, and needs to be severely restricted as a government instrument.

There are many professional courses obviously that are a benefit e.g. law, accountancy, medicine, sciences, construction studies, architecture etc, to name a few, with various offshoots from this, but degrees in marketing, most business degrees, economics, social studies, combined arts etc, or any other such course that offers no intrinsic practical skill necessary to employment is in my opinion a big fat waste of space that should not be subsidised.

If you look at the amount of billionaires entrepreneurs (who outnumber three to one to those educated) most realised they had the practicality within themselves, self-drive, inbuilt business acumen and quickly learned that college had little to offer them. As mentioned by others, IT is out of date most times it reaches college curriculum text book, and within that sector Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates are all but a few prime examples of drop outs.

Many fortune 500 CEO’s have no formal education at third level. Terence Leahy worked from stockroom to CEO of Tesco and turned it into one of the most prolific and profitable global brands, when he retired Philip Clarke took over and screwed up the brand. His business degree from Liverpool University hasn’t helped much. Many successful people in the business world have no degrees, so don’t fret if you do not have one.

Maybe for me its pot calling the kettle black having gone to college years ago, but seriously the amount of graduate airheads that I've had to interview over the years who are ill-equipped or prepared with the practical skills or common sense necessary to succeed in the work place is IMO getting worse on a yearly basis.

I'm sorry, but apart from the first half of your post, what you're saying is pretty much false across the board.

The people you mention who have "done it on their own" are outliers. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates got into Harvard and dropped out. Bill gates got a nearly perfect SAT score. These guys were way above average academically speaking. On top of that, they were from really well off middle class backgrounds that could support them when they dropped out of freakin Harvard. Michael Dell? "The son of Lorraine Charlotte (née Langfan), a stockbroker,[5] and Alexander Dell, an orthodontist" (Wiki). Don't get mislead by the success of American upper-middle class smart guys who had their parents backing so they didn't need to finish college.

For every guy that's worked his way up from the mail room, there's 100 guys who are CEOs/MDs who went to Trinity, Ox-bridge, Harvard, another Ivy league college and not all of these guys have studied the "practical" degrees you've mentioned.

For instance: Economics is practically mathematics nowadays. Ever read an academic economics paper? You need an A* (A1 leaving cert) and sometimes Further Maths (grade A) to get into study economics at a top university in the UK (same for US colleges I'd imagine). "no intrinsic practical skill necessary to employment" you say? what if you want to become an economist at the IMF or some other multilateral (or even a private company)

To get an accountancy position for one of the big 4, you could have studied literally anything (I'm talking Medieval History here) as long as you've got good grades (2.1) and went to a decent University (and of course preform well in the interviews). No specific degree required

With Law, its the same. If you studied History/English at Trinity/Oxford, you'll stand a good chance of getting a training contract (depending on how you interview of course) with a law firm. But training contracts are thin on the ground atm unless you've gone to a top uni

Construction/Architecture - there's not much work there in Ireland at the minute at all.

However in saying that, I'm definitely not saying that there's not a lot of guys out there who run their own trade business and are making very good money for themselves - self made men. And fair ****s to them, I say.

I do actually agree with you on how universities are churning out students with padded out degrees. But only from the standpoint that these students were kind of mugged off. I don't think any subject is really useless at the core of it, you do develop discipline, research skills, writing ability if you apply yourself. But a lot of students are disillusioned with their degrees because it doesn't really prepare them for the real world.

For instance: I've pretty much detested any philosophical theory in any academic papers I've had to read as an undergrad (I din't do philosphy btw but sometimes it can creep in to some papers). I even made a thread on how academics write a 10 page paper full of critical theory and philosphical bull**** to mask the fact that their argument is one that a 10 year old could come up with...so in effect they're just masking their trite argument with a heafty amount of philosophical smokescreen/padding. At the same time I've read a book on philosophiy(kind of pop-philosophy) and while I disliked a lot of it, some of it was just fundamental learning for anyone really, and it defintely got you thinking

Galwayguy35

I think in the past it was maybe a bit easier to do well without a degree, I was the first in my family to even do the Leaving Cert, my brother only went as far as Group Cert and he did well for himself.

md23040

parc wrote: »

The people you mention who have "done it on their own" are outliers. Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates got into Harvard anddropped out. Bill gates got a nearly perfect SAT score. These guys were way above average academically speaking. On top of that, they were from really well off middle class backgrounds that could support them when they dropped out offreakinHarvard.

Three in every four billionaires have no third level formal education. One of the most prolific James Dyson is in that camp, and one of the richest in the UK Philip Green of the Arcadia group became a Far Eastern shoe importer at fifteen from his parents’ house in North London. There are many many examples of people in the SundayTimes Rich List 500 (out this week) and the Forbes 500 that have no third level education and are self-made and out number greatly those with degrees.

There is so much information that can be gleamed now from the internet, and we have entered the information age, and the planet will benefit enormously through sharing of ideas online that in ways anything, no matter where you are, is at your fingertips in a matters of seconds. This will be the great meritocracy IMO.

parc wrote: »

For every guy that's worked his way up from the mailroom, there's 100 guys who are CEOs/MDs who went to Trinity, Ox-bridge,Harvard, another Ivy league collegeand not all of these guys have studied the"practical" degrees you've mentioned.

Wrong - there's not at board level or CEO presently - not at the minute. Maybe soon though, because every dog in the street for some reason feels the need to have a degree of sorts from the last generation or two forward.

parc wrote: »

For instance: Economics is practically mathematics nowadays. Ever read an academic economics paper? ...."no intrinsic practical skill necessary to employment" you say? what if you want to become an economist at the IMF or some other multilateral (or even a private company)

Ironically my degree was in economics then jumped onto a course in statistical marketing. So yes I have read academic economic papers, and could blindside someone on the values of empirical research both from a quantitative or qualitative perspective and all that jargon.

Of course there is a need for a certain number of economics courses (slightly more than demand say double) but the sheer number of places available throughout the UK and Ireland must be in the tens of thousands of places on a yearly basis without the needs within the economy (which in economics is ironic in the most extreme, with supply and demand).

What’s the point of someone doing a degree course in economics and learns that mathematical minutia of micro and macroeconomics and then ends up working as a department manager in Car Phone Warehouse or Toys R Us (very few work in the discipline and in a matter of years forget almost everything they've learnt).

The same with marketing and business related courses, there's a huge spike in the number of places offered by colleges but not the same demand from the work environment. Marks and Spencer has less than 20 in its marketing department.The amount of marketing places on a yearly basis to marketing graduates, there must be 50 grads for every one place and that’s optimistic, even in a good economy.

Also you’d learn as much about economic concepts from reading the enjoyable series of books Freakonomics (or daily newspaper extracts) by Harvard’s Levitt and Dubner, that are so grounded in reality and easy to understand. Or some other publications, that are de-jargoned and take the mystery out of the subject.

parc wrote: »

To get anaccountancy position for one of the big 4, you could have studied literally anything (I'm talking Medieval History here) as long as you've got good grades(2.1) and went to a decent University (and of course perform well in the interviews). No specific degree required

That’s the problem, its lunacy.

parc wrote: »

Construction/Architecture - there's not much work there in Ireland at the minute at all.

There's plenty of work globally in all disciplines of civil and constructive engineering, architecture etc within the global environment (but thats not the kernel of my argument). If you studied economics then you'd know the Irish economy is cyclical and at somestage will improve.

Look my main beef is the sheer scale and growth of third level educational policy in the UK and Ireland and the cost to the exchequer. Third level in a lifetime (due to so many people having it now) is beginning to offer less and less salary advantage over those without, but gives them a huge drag on debt.

Also, there are many companies crying out for graduates with mathematical, sciences background etc and not enough coming through, which is a shame when there's loads with useless combined Arts degrees.

There's another thread on this and maybe my comments should be directed in there so will disengage. But persons without degrees should not feel they missed out - again, third level is not the be all and end all, there is no fantastic revelation or nirvana moment of self-discovery or realisation -most (not all) are padded out with rubbish that could be condensed into 12 months or 24 months at most without losing any relevant subject matter. Hence less government salaries, cost to the exchequer and less debt for student to be burdened with.






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