Is there an Irish version of 3 strikes and Out ?

SeanW

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Your proposal, then, is to copy one of the least successful and most expensive justice systems in the western world?
Wow, that's really clever. I wonder why nobody has decided to do that yet.

No, I'm just suggesting that some people are never going to be fit to live in civilised society and should not be allowed to.

BTW, if you have a better way of dealing with Johnny McScumbag with ~150 convictions often for violent crime, attempted murder etc, I'm all ears.

twinQuins

SeanW wrote: »

I could say the same thing about the current approach ... you let someone go free when 100+ convictions often for violent offenses proves they cannot be trusted in civilised society, then wonder why they go and stab someone else ... That's really smart!

So clearly we need a new solution, not any tried and failed method.

ColeTrain wrote: »

Don't you think times are different now? It seems to me that prisoners have never had it softer. Between their environment and their sentencing. Even when they get our there are plenty of benefits and hand outs for them.
I'm not saying every prisoner should be treated like dirt but in special cases, for those who continually re offend with violent crime, would it really be that bad to make their environment tougher and to maybe, make them think of not wanting to go out and do the same thing again.

What's your solution btw?

Don't have one. That doesn't mean I can't see what isn't a solution though, before we go to the "you can't criticise a book unless you're an author" style argument.

I would suggest emulating one of the Scandinavian nations with low crime rates but that's as much to do with their cultures and values as their judicial systems.
But the fact remains that brutalising prisoners just doesn't work.

EuropeanSon

SeanW wrote: »

No, I'm just suggesting that some people are never going to be fit to live in civilised society and should not be allowed to.

BTW, if you have a better way of dealing with Johnny McScumbag with ~150 convictions often for violent crime, attempted murder etc, I'm all ears.

I don't. I don't think we should make laws to deal with specific extreme cases. We should make laws that'll give us the best society overall, and a 3 strikes law doesn't do that. We should try to prevent more cases like this emerging with better rehab schemes (I do agree that this particular case is a lost cause, most probably, but we should look at the bigger picture). We should also be less lenient with repeat offences, if all this article is true, it appears a little absurd.

kupus

I blame the lawyers plain and simple. They are on a money spinner. Without these scumbags, they would have no jobs as all the construction related lawyering has dried up.

And its seemingly impossible to do anything about it, as judges were once lawyers, and they are in on this **** as well. And who polices the judges, their friends of course.....

Sounds like the banking regulation system in fairness.....oh wait....

ColeTrain

twinQuins wrote: »

I would suggest emulating one of the Scandinavian nations with low crime rates but that's as much to do with their cultures and values as their judicial systems.
But the fact remains that brutalising prisoners just doesn't work.

Who does it not work for? The unreforamble prisoner? If it works on one prisoner then that's good for everyone. If it doesn't then we're back to where we are now.
If it was one of my family members that suffered at the hands of one of these animals then at least I'd sleep a little easier knowing they are properly being punished for their crimes, instead of the tax payer shelling out for reform that doesn't work and the prisoner not having any interest in it in the first place.

ColeTrain

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I don't. I don't think we should make laws to deal with specific extreme cases. We should make laws that'll give us the best society overall, and a 3 strikes law doesn't do that. We should try to prevent more cases like this emerging with better rehab schemes (I do agree that this particular case is a lost cause, most probably, but we should look at the bigger picture). We should also be less lenient with repeat offences, if all this article is true, it appears a little absurd.

This is the picture we are discussing, the prisoner who will re offend at every given opportunity. No need to bring anything else into it.

Sergeant

There is a problem with a justice system that allows serial and unrepentant offenders to continue to commit crime against people who believe in the concept of society.

But advocating such a disgusting and inhumane thing as the death penalty (as is fired out around here from time-to-time) isn't even approaching a valid solution.

EuropeanSon

ColeTrain wrote: »

This is the picture we are discussing, the prisoner who will re offend at every given opportunity. No need to bring anything else into it.

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

SeanW

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

The problem is that this is not an isolated incident. There are a lot of people like that in and out of court for their 100-somethingth offense.

Even if there are only a small number of them, it behooves government and those who want to protect society to advocate an "X strikes" system. Perhaps 3 is a bit too strict, but after a certain numnber of offenses I think the focus should be less on reform and understanding the defendents excuses and more about protecting society from the criminal. Permanently (e.g. Life in the slammer)
Or for example anyone who commits a crime while on bail for another crime.

ColeTrain

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

Who mentioned anything about personality types?

i don't give a f*** if someone is outgoing or aggressive. If they keep committing violent crime then they should be dealt with harsher and harsher until they get it through their thick skull that there is severe consequences for their actions. If they don't 'get it' then let them suffer through the pain and then we can all feel like there is a bit of justice for everyone.

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

no i didn't...i just wanted to say my piece. thats all no offence meant.

And you have,most elequently,said your piece...however bizzarre it may be.

The "piece",does however tend to underline my point that,when faced with serious potentially threatening issues of greater public concern,the Irish way is to seek out and agonize over vaporous semi-moral potential side-tracks.

Hmmn!letsee does'nt elaborate on the marital status of the individual,but presumably is intimately familiar with that situation ?

I tend to be far more concerned at the mechanics of being stabbed in the back,without provovation,by a stranger with a long bladed knife on a City Centre street....

hmmn!letssee

Yes sorry for my bizarre piece as you put it, yes i am extremely familiar with the marital status of the man, however not familiar enough it seems..as i had to find out about the 'girlfriend' through the media. Yes i'm sure my post is in the wrong place and is of little consequence to anyone on here, of course the bigger issue is he was violently stabbed whilst going about his 'business' however there is always more to any story than meets the eye. Had the man died his wife and children would be none the wiser and would be devastated at the loss, when instead he was caught out in the most horrific circumstances. Karma.

hmmn!letssee

AlekSmart wrote: »

And you have,most elequently,said your piece...however bizzarre it may be.

The "piece",does however tend to underline my point that,when faced with serious potentially threatening issues of greater public concern,the Irish way is to seek out and agonize over vaporous semi-moral potential side-tracks.

Hmmn!letsee does'nt elaborate on the marital status of the individual,but presumably is intimately familiar with that situation ?

I tend to be far more concerned at the mechanics of being stabbed in the back,without provovation,by a stranger with a long bladed knife on a City Centre street....

here is my reply,

omahaid

I've always felt that if you have > 100 convictions then rehabilitation has failed and you have resigned from society. Like this chap

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-found-guilty-of-murder-has-118-previous-convictions-588732.html

Pendu

There is an Irish version - three strikes and sure it'll be grand.

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

Yes sorry for my bizarre piece as you put it, yes i am extremely familiar with the marital status of the man, however not familiar enough it seems..as i had to find out about the 'girlfriend' through the media. Yes i'm sure my post is in the wrong place and is of little consequence to anyone on here, of course the bigger issue is he was violently stabbed whilst going about his 'business' however there is always more to any story than meets the eye. Had the man died his wife and children would be none the wiser and would be devastated at the loss, when instead he was caught out in the most horrific circumstances. Karma.

Karma....Karma... ??

Indeed....I have to say Hmmn!letssee,that my bizzarreometer has broken it's needle after your clarifying reply...

In your OP you suggest.....

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

So correct me if I'm wrong,but you are suggesting that because Mr Byrne was in the company of a younger woman (and foreign to boot !!) it automatically follows that they are up to no (moral) good ?

Relationships,be they marriages,partnerships,friendships or whatever are no longer the sole preserve of staid committed individuals,if indeed they ever were.
Instead,modern relationships are far more dynamic and fluid than at any time in our (Irish) past,with many people able to enjoy far more fulfilling and enlightened companionships than ever before.

Are married people not allowed to socialize independently with people other than their spouses ?

Are you suggesting that this gentleman is somehow or other abusive to his wife and children ? (assuming,all the time that YOU are not equally misinformed as to the status of his "marriage").

Are you in some way speaking on behalf of this "Wife and Children"..?

Could it not be entirely posssible that the description "Girlfriend" was simply tacked on by a lazy assumptive Sub-Editor ?

I thought the initial attack and it's background was indeed sad....

.....But even sadder is the creepy sensation that you are indeed taking some form of righteous satisfaction out of this attack on both Mr Kenny and Ms Doyzaite.

Crikey,hmmn!letsee,I somehow or other suspect that you have'nt thought this "Karma" thing through...:o

end of the road

TheBza wrote: »

id love if they brought in the death penalty here.

awwwwwwwwwww. well you can forget it as it isn't going to happen, ireland has moved on, were a forward thinking country and med-eval punishments are not welcome here, they don't work, never have, never will

end of the road

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity

really? i'm sure their partial to making things up if it suits their story and agenda.

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

well believe it or not married men can be friends with or in the company of women without wanting to get in to their pants.

hmmn!letssee

AlekSmart wrote: »

Karma....Karma... ??

Indeed....I have to say Hmmn!letssee,that my bizzarreometer has broken it's needle after your clarifying reply...

In your OP you suggest.....



So correct me if I'm wrong,but you are suggesting that because Mr Byrne was in the company of a younger woman (and foreign to boot !!) it automatically follows that they are up to no (moral) good ?

Relationships,be they marriages,partnerships,friendships or whatever are no longer the sole preserve of staid committed individuals,if indeed they ever were.
Instead,modern relationships are far more dynamic and fluid than at any time in our (Irish) past,with many people able to enjoy far more fulfilling and enlightened companionships than ever before.

Are married people not allowed to socialize independently with people other than their spouses ?

Are you suggesting that this gentleman is somehow or other abusive to his wife and children ? (assuming,all the time that YOU are not equally misinformed as to the status of his "marriage").

Are you in some way speaking on behalf of this "Wife and Children"..?

Could it not be entirely posssible that the description "Girlfriend" was simply tacked on by a lazy assumptive Sub-Editor ?

I thought the initial attack and it's background was indeed sad....

.....But even sadder is the creepy sensation that you are indeed taking some form of righteous satisfaction out of this attack on both Mr Kenny and Ms Doyzaite.

Crikey,hmmn!letsee,I somehow or other suspect that you have'nt thought this "Karma" thing through...:o

perhaps mr Byrne's wife was under the impression that mr Byrne was not supposed to be having any social contact with ms Dryzaite, after she was 'involved' in mr Byrne's marriage while mrs Byrne was pregnant with their second child who is only ten months old. ms Dryzaite's mother gave an interview with the star on wednesday,referring to them as a couple who had been in the gym earlier that night.(which was news to mrs Byrne) yes it was a horrific incident,one which could have left two children without their father, but none the less a most unfortunate way to get caught...i am not taking satisfaction from this situation in the slightest, it brings me no joy whatsoever, the word 'karma' just sprung to mind.

hmmn!letssee

end of the road wrote: »

really? i'm sure their partial to making things up if it suits their story and agenda.

well believe it or not married men can be friends with or in the company of women without wanting to get in to their pants.

not this one he can't!

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

Perhaps Mr Byrne's wife was under the impression that Mr Byrne was not supposed to be having any social contact with Ms Dryzaite,after she was 'involved' in Mr Byrne's marriage while Mrs Byrne was pregnant with their second child who is only ten months old.

Ms Dryzaite's mother gave an interview with the star on wednesday,referring to them as a couple who had been in the gym earlier that night.(which was news to Mrs Byrne).

Yes it was a horrific incident,one which could have left two children without their father, but none the less a most unfortunate way to get caught...i am not taking satisfaction from this situation in the slightest, it brings me no joy whatsoever, the word 'karma' just sprung to mind.

Incredible stuff indeed,and by golly we are getting no little amount of Moral Judgement on the issue of Marital Fidelity.

Obviously Hmmn!Letsee has some level of close involvement with this marriage/relationship situation,and chooses to portray Mr Byrne in as strongly negative way as possible.

I dont actually see this mans marital situation as any of my business,and I am acutely aware that attempting to judge the actual status of any other persons relationship is fraught with danger and usually results in a totally incorrect conclusion.

However it does return us to a question as to whether Hmmn!Letsee is prepared to stand over the Karma remark and perhaps outline the thinking which "sprung it to mind".

In doing so our attention will be taken from the reality of us (Non Criminally Inclined People) funding yet another Legal Team to defend the accused,on yet another,ever increasingly violent charge.

hmmn!letssee

AlekSmart wrote: »

Incredible stuff indeed,and by golly we are getting no little amount of Moral Judgement on the issue of Marital Fidelity.

Obviously Hmmn!Letsee has some level of close involvement with this marriage/relationship situation,and chooses to portray Mr Byrne in as strongly negative way as possible.

I dont actually see this mans marital situation as any of my business,and I am acutely aware that attempting to judge the actual status of any other persons relationship is fraught with danger and usually results in a totally incorrect conclusion.

However it does return us to a question as to whether Hmmn!Letsee is prepared to stand over the Karma remark and perhaps outline the thinking which "sprung it to mind".

In doing so our attention will be taken from the reality of us (Non Criminally Inclined People) funding yet another Legal Team to defend the accused,on yet another,ever increasingly violent charge.

firstly i am not trying to portray him in any sort of way, i am just explaining the FACTS that have led me into this discussion. i am not asking anybody to judge him on his actions(his wife of 9 years will be doing that herself,believe you me) and yes perhaps the 'karma' remark was a little strong,but my thinking was had he been at home in bed at 1am instead of being out with this particular person, none of this would be happening to him,he is now recovering from very severe injuries,he will also have post traumatic stress,this incident will have major impact on his future relationship with his wife and children.he will not be able to work for a while, not to mention the people who know him and his family gossiping about him..so that is what led me to thinking that karma can be a bitch!! again perhaps too severe a comment, i do not condone the violent nature of the attack whatsoever, but perhaps put yourself in the shoes of a woman who was frantic with worry yet was not told about ms Dryzaite being in his company until she read it in the paper. i wont be having any further comments on this.

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

Firstly,Im not trying to portray him in any sort of way, I am just explaining the FACTS that have led me into this discussion. I am not asking anybody to judge him on his actions(his wife of 9 years will be doing that herself,believe you me) and yes perhaps the 'karma' remark was a little strong,but my thinking was had he been at home in bed at 1am instead of being out with this particular person, none of this would be happening to him,he is now recovering from very severe injuries,he will also have post traumatic stress,this incident will have major impact on his future relationship with his wife and children.he will not be able to work for a while, not to mention the people who know him and his family gossiping about him..so that is what led me to thinking that karma can be a bitch!! again perhaps too severe a comment, I do not condone the violent nature of the attack whatsoever, but perhaps put yourself in the shoes of a woman who was frantic with worry yet was not told about Ms Dryzaite being in his company until she read it in the paper. I wont be having any further comments on this.

On balance,a sensible decision I think.