Is there an Irish version of 3 strikes and Out ?

AlekSmart

I somewhat lazily scanned across the accounts of the "Grafton Street Stabbings" earlier this week.

Nothing much to see here,just another normal end to a Night-Out in Dublin,or so I was prepared to accept...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/manhunt-after-two-men-stabbed-and-woman-assaulted-in-grafton-street-crime-spree-29199913.html

Hard luck on the poor victims I thought,but hey,these attacks are actually quite rare etc etc....needed to reassure myself and not fall into that moany old rightwinger stereotype...;)

Then,by chance I clicked-on a bit......Good Work by the Gardai thought I,as I read of an arrest and court appearance...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-accused-of-grafton-street-stabbing-faces-court-591575.html

I did emit a little Hmmmm as I read this however...

His lawyers asked the judge to order a urine analysis test, telling the Court, "it may be very, very important to our defence."

Another Hmmm,this time somewhat more drawn out...whats this all about then...the urine made me do it..?..but,it's always good to have your Lawyers onside,and of course the accused is entitled to the best possible defence..Yes ?

My curiosity,by now is stimulated and finally somewhat allieviated by the good ol Tabloids...

http://www.thestar.ie/star/knife-nuts-stab-two-men-in-late-night-muggings/

Innocent Indian national Harikash Rjaysur (31) was stabbed in the chest while Killian Byrne (35) from Goatstown, Dublin was stabbed in the back and side in muggings.

Mr Byrne’s girlfriend, Karolina Dryzaite (22), was beaten around the head during the knife-point attacks.

The victims were left lying in pools of their own blood in the normally-safe Grafton Street shopping area of Dublin city shortly after 1am yesterday.

They demanded cash and their phones and then they stabbed Karolina’s boyfriend and punched her a number of times in the head.

Moments before the attack on Killian and Karolina, the thug and his accomplice were also suspected of stabbing Harsikash outside Foot Locker on Grafton Street while attempting to steal his phone and cash.

Holy Shytt...that was some nasty series of attacks...coulda very easily been three dead bodies,but at least the perpetrators are in custody and won't be able to target my children,or anybody elses innocent family members out for a night in Dublin City Centre...

However...it's equally nice to see our national ability to elevate ourselves beyond the negativity still exists....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-accused-of-grafton-street-stabbing-faces-court-591575.html

Wxxxxx made no application for bail today, and will appear again in court next week.

Phew...and here was I worrying that these individuals might be denied their right to Bail...It looks like their "Lawyers" will address that awfulness in due course.

Further light reading brought this...from 2011...

http://www.herald.ie/news/out-of-control-most-dangerous-man-in-our-jails-27981580.html

Wxxxx has amassed 169 serious breaches of discipline since he first entered the Irish prison system in October, 2005.

Mind you,unless my sums are awry...

Sources say that Wxxxx -- who was jailed for 10 years in March, 2007, for a litany of violent crimes, including robbery, hijacking, assault and threatening to kill gardai -- is a "ticking time bomb who is capable of anything.

A 10 year jail sentence imposed in March 2007 sees us safe up to....March 2017..Yea ?......No Ted..not here it does'nt....:rolleyes:


A little rewind to 2007,brought me to here.....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/outofcontrol-teen-jailed-for-catalogue-of-crimes-26269880.html

Now,this last article merits a full reading,as it is just overflowing with "Issues" relating to just how much largesse our State can be expected to show offenders whilst pretty much leaving the law-abiding folks to sort themselves out...:(

Now,I'm fully aware of Bunreacht na hEireann's various protections for the rights of Irish Citizens...I'm equally aware of how our Constitution strives to portray us as all "Equal before God" etc etc...however I'm kinda stumped trying to figure out how Mr DeValera's document can be used to "Guide" our Judiciary in situations such as what we can expect to read of in the coming weeks ?

Has anybody got any suggestions as to how to address developing situations such as these

ScumLord

We call it rounders.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Iv played 3 and in alright.

FGR

The Irish Justice System - a revolving door that emphasises a constant burden on the victim whilst ensuring every possible opportunity for the culprit to walk free without paying for his deeds.

Bertie Proposed the three strike system. Probably didn't bother with it when he realised that we'd need a proper, larger prison system and a judiciary who would be willing to play ball.

BillyMitchel

Yeah. Michael Barrymore used to host it

crockholm

a zero or two after the 3 sounds closer to the mark

shruikan2553

Sure we cant punish people for coming from a bad background!

People who commit violent acts, especially unprovoked should be in prison for ATLEAST 10-15 years and even more for stabbings, muggings etc. No bail, no getting out early on good behavior, just long prison sentence followed by monitoring

TheBza

id love if they brought in the death penalty here.

Richard Hillman

The defence no doubt will be

1) Was drunk or on drugs
2) Troubled family background
3) Has enrolled in some sort of educational course
4) "Derz no faciliteeeees"

EuropeanSon

Yeah, because that law really helps reduce violent crime in the US... :rolleyes:

Death and Taxes

I'm lost here, when was the guy convicted?

Senna

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The defence no doubt will be

1) Was drunk or on drugs
2) Troubled family background
3) Has enrolled in some sort of educational course
4) "Derz no faciliteeeees"

The defence are right to bring up these issues, its the judges/courts that shouldn't fall for this bullshít.

Death and Taxes

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The defence no doubt will be

1) Was drunk or on drugs
2) Troubled family background
3) Has enrolled in some sort of educational course
4) "Derz no faciliteeeees"

That would be the same defence the 4 little rich boys used in the Annabells case would it?

Gorilla Rising

Yes. It's called 120 strikes and you're out.

dd972

Sounds like a Derek Mooney quiz show, was trying to make up a skit on the 'Out' word but I'm not creative enough humour wise

dd972

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That would be the same defence the 4 little rich boys used in the Annabells case would it?

Do you mean that case where the Indo pored over the 'lost futures and prospects' of those young gentlemen who erred in their judgement....

tayto lover

Drop him into Mountjoy from one of the garda helicopters from 2,000 feet.

ColeTrain

The system failed these three people. Sickening to see animals like him roam the streets

AlekSmart

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I'm lost here, when was the guy convicted?

Oh I'm sure your Sat-Nav will lead you to a suitably safe location...;)

The latest attack,is of course a seperate occuence,as yet untried so best left alone,for fear of providing some basis for "gettin the accused off on a technicality".

As for actual convictions,I'm ok with this small selection from 2007....

http://www.herald.ie/news/out-of-control-most-dangerous-man-in-our-jails-27981580.html

He was only 18 when he was sentenced on those 25 charges and at that stage he had 44 previous convictions. In total Wright has 79 previous criminal convictions.

While this particular individual's case is currently under deliberation,it is only an examplar for the worsening situation in relation to violent recidivist criminals being facilitated by our Justice System to simply stroll back out and pick up where they left off.

I'm assuming a person convicted and thus under the care of the Irish Prison Service had full access to the range of Rehabilitative services within the system ?

Fair enough,if an individual convict is denied access to such services,but unless it can be proven that our Prison Service is doing that,then at what point do we have to ask ourselves about the sustainability of our current system ?

Are we expected to have a totally unlimited regard for the rights of serial criminals,whilst offering ourselves,repeatedly,up,as fodder to keep these people amused ?

Or is everything really OK after all.....and the Court Reports we increasingly read are all scaremongering hysteria..?

The Jury is out I suppose ....

AlekSmart

ColeTrain wrote: »

The system failed these three people. Sickening to see animals like him roam the streets

I happen to agree ColeTrain.

However,when such failures start occurring repeatedly and with ever worsening consequences,we not surprisingly see people questioning the operation and even the motives of that "System".

I know I certainly do.

That said,there is a well developed and active grouping who not only challenge that "System Failing the victim" viewpoint,but who turn it on it's head and instead suggest the System actually "fails the criminal" first,thus causing his/her criminality...this attitude,in an odd way, almost appears to blame the victims for not being supportive or recognisant of the situation in which such criminals find themselves.

It boils down in no small way to whether we cuddle thse folks and pat their heads,or whether we take a more robust view of their choice of behaviour ?

ColeTrain

AlekSmart wrote: »

I happen to agree ColeTrain.

However,when such failures start occurring repeatedly and with ever worsening consequences,we not surprisingly see people questioning the operation and even the motives of that "System".

I know I certainly do.

That said,there is a well developed and active grouping who not only challenge that "System Failing the victim" viewpoint,but who turn it on it's head and instead suggest the System actually "fails the criminal" first,thus causing his/her criminality...this attitude,in an odd way, almost appears to blame the victims for not being supportive or recognisant of the situation in which such criminals find themselves.

It boils down in no small way to whether we cuddle thse folks and pat their heads,or whether we take a more robust view of their choice of behaviour ?

Maybe a system whereby we have a special jail built for anyone who would dare to violently re offend. A place where flogging is for breakfast and there are no immenaties. It would make 'slopping out' look like something a royal family member would do.
Seriously, the above might be extreme but there has to be a serious deterrent put in place. These people don't give a damn about doing time in the current jails. We're only fooling ourselves to think that some members of our society can be reformed. The truth is there are some who will act like animals until their last day on earth, we should realise that they should be treated as such until it's beaten out of them and they actually fear going back to the dungeons of this special jail. Until that happens innocent people will suffer.

hmmn!letssee

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

ColeTrain

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

Did you open an account on boards to suggest that the accused is some sort of crusader against adultery?

twinQuins

ColeTrain wrote: »

Maybe a system whereby we have a special jail built for anyone who would dare to violently re offend. A place where flogging is for breakfast and there are no immenaties. It would make 'slopping out' look like something a royal family member would do. [...]

Oh sure, the countless times where even worse treatment was tried throughout history were just flukes.

This time it'll work. Right? Because it's not like there's anything ridiculously stupid about trying the same thing that's been shown to fail over and over.

Frank Black

The Irish equivalent is 'Do that again, and you're getting a shlap of the hurl'

SeanW

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Yeah, because that law really helps reduce violent crime in the US... :rolleyes:

You're right, we shouldn't crack down on scum. So when this latest prize gets out of jail again (may happen sooner than any of us expect) and knifes some other poor random bugger, we should just accept it as an inevitablity :rolleyes:

hmmn!letssee

ColeTrain wrote: »

Did you open an account on boards to suggest that the accused is some sort of crusader against adultery?

no i didn't...i just wanted to say my piece. thats all no offence meant.

SeanW

twinQuins wrote: »

This time it'll work. Right? Because it's not like there's anything ridiculously stupid about trying the same thing that's been shown to fail over and over.

I could say the same thing about the current approach ... you let someone go free when 100+ convictions often for violent offenses proves they cannot be trusted in civilised society, then wonder why they go and stab someone else ... That's really smart!

ColeTrain

twinQuins wrote: »

Oh sure, the countless times where even worse treatment was tried throughout history were just flukes.

This time it'll work. Right? Because it's not like there's anything ridiculously stupid about trying the same thing that's been shown to fail over and over.

Don't you think times are different now? It seems to me that prisoners have never had it softer. Between their environment and their sentencing. Even when they get our there are plenty of benefits and hand outs for them.
I'm not saying every prisoner should be treated like dirt but in special cases, for those who continually re offend with violent crime, would it really be that bad to make their environment tougher and to maybe, make them think of not wanting to go out and do the same thing again.

What's your solution btw?

ColeTrain

SeanW wrote: »

I could say the same thing about the current approach ... you let someone go free when 100+ convictions often for violent offenses proves they cannot be trusted in civilised society, then wonder why they go and stab someone else ... That's really smart!

Ah yeah but we have to be seen to be liberal by reforming the unreformable. F*** the innocent people that they will invariably hurt.

EuropeanSon

SeanW wrote: »

You're right, we shouldn't crack down on scum. So when this latest prize gets out of jail again (may happen sooner than any of us expect) and knifes some other poor random bugger, we should just accept it as an inevitablity :rolleyes:

Your proposal, then, is to copy one of the least successful and most expensive justice systems in the western world?
Wow, that's really clever. I wonder why nobody has decided to do that yet.

SeanW

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Your proposal, then, is to copy one of the least successful and most expensive justice systems in the western world?
Wow, that's really clever. I wonder why nobody has decided to do that yet.

No, I'm just suggesting that some people are never going to be fit to live in civilised society and should not be allowed to.

BTW, if you have a better way of dealing with Johnny McScumbag with ~150 convictions often for violent crime, attempted murder etc, I'm all ears.

twinQuins

SeanW wrote: »

I could say the same thing about the current approach ... you let someone go free when 100+ convictions often for violent offenses proves they cannot be trusted in civilised society, then wonder why they go and stab someone else ... That's really smart!

So clearly we need a new solution, not any tried and failed method.

ColeTrain wrote: »

Don't you think times are different now? It seems to me that prisoners have never had it softer. Between their environment and their sentencing. Even when they get our there are plenty of benefits and hand outs for them.
I'm not saying every prisoner should be treated like dirt but in special cases, for those who continually re offend with violent crime, would it really be that bad to make their environment tougher and to maybe, make them think of not wanting to go out and do the same thing again.

What's your solution btw?

Don't have one. That doesn't mean I can't see what isn't a solution though, before we go to the "you can't criticise a book unless you're an author" style argument.

I would suggest emulating one of the Scandinavian nations with low crime rates but that's as much to do with their cultures and values as their judicial systems.
But the fact remains that brutalising prisoners just doesn't work.

EuropeanSon

SeanW wrote: »

No, I'm just suggesting that some people are never going to be fit to live in civilised society and should not be allowed to.

BTW, if you have a better way of dealing with Johnny McScumbag with ~150 convictions often for violent crime, attempted murder etc, I'm all ears.

I don't. I don't think we should make laws to deal with specific extreme cases. We should make laws that'll give us the best society overall, and a 3 strikes law doesn't do that. We should try to prevent more cases like this emerging with better rehab schemes (I do agree that this particular case is a lost cause, most probably, but we should look at the bigger picture). We should also be less lenient with repeat offences, if all this article is true, it appears a little absurd.

kupus

I blame the lawyers plain and simple. They are on a money spinner. Without these scumbags, they would have no jobs as all the construction related lawyering has dried up.

And its seemingly impossible to do anything about it, as judges were once lawyers, and they are in on this **** as well. And who polices the judges, their friends of course.....

Sounds like the banking regulation system in fairness.....oh wait....

ColeTrain

twinQuins wrote: »

I would suggest emulating one of the Scandinavian nations with low crime rates but that's as much to do with their cultures and values as their judicial systems.
But the fact remains that brutalising prisoners just doesn't work.

Who does it not work for? The unreforamble prisoner? If it works on one prisoner then that's good for everyone. If it doesn't then we're back to where we are now.
If it was one of my family members that suffered at the hands of one of these animals then at least I'd sleep a little easier knowing they are properly being punished for their crimes, instead of the tax payer shelling out for reform that doesn't work and the prisoner not having any interest in it in the first place.

ColeTrain

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I don't. I don't think we should make laws to deal with specific extreme cases. We should make laws that'll give us the best society overall, and a 3 strikes law doesn't do that. We should try to prevent more cases like this emerging with better rehab schemes (I do agree that this particular case is a lost cause, most probably, but we should look at the bigger picture). We should also be less lenient with repeat offences, if all this article is true, it appears a little absurd.

This is the picture we are discussing, the prisoner who will re offend at every given opportunity. No need to bring anything else into it.

Sergeant

There is a problem with a justice system that allows serial and unrepentant offenders to continue to commit crime against people who believe in the concept of society.

But advocating such a disgusting and inhumane thing as the death penalty (as is fired out around here from time-to-time) isn't even approaching a valid solution.

EuropeanSon

ColeTrain wrote: »

This is the picture we are discussing, the prisoner who will re offend at every given opportunity. No need to bring anything else into it.

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

SeanW

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

The problem is that this is not an isolated incident. There are a lot of people like that in and out of court for their 100-somethingth offense.

Even if there are only a small number of them, it behooves government and those who want to protect society to advocate an "X strikes" system. Perhaps 3 is a bit too strict, but after a certain numnber of offenses I think the focus should be less on reform and understanding the defendents excuses and more about protecting society from the criminal. Permanently (e.g. Life in the slammer)
Or for example anyone who commits a crime while on bail for another crime.

ColeTrain

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That's absurd. You don't legislate for personality types.

Who mentioned anything about personality types?

i don't give a f*** if someone is outgoing or aggressive. If they keep committing violent crime then they should be dealt with harsher and harsher until they get it through their thick skull that there is severe consequences for their actions. If they don't 'get it' then let them suffer through the pain and then we can all feel like there is a bit of justice for everyone.

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

no i didn't...i just wanted to say my piece. thats all no offence meant.

And you have,most elequently,said your piece...however bizzarre it may be.

The "piece",does however tend to underline my point that,when faced with serious potentially threatening issues of greater public concern,the Irish way is to seek out and agonize over vaporous semi-moral potential side-tracks.

Hmmn!letsee does'nt elaborate on the marital status of the individual,but presumably is intimately familiar with that situation ?

I tend to be far more concerned at the mechanics of being stabbed in the back,without provovation,by a stranger with a long bladed knife on a City Centre street....

hmmn!letssee

Yes sorry for my bizarre piece as you put it, yes i am extremely familiar with the marital status of the man, however not familiar enough it seems..as i had to find out about the 'girlfriend' through the media. Yes i'm sure my post is in the wrong place and is of little consequence to anyone on here, of course the bigger issue is he was violently stabbed whilst going about his 'business' however there is always more to any story than meets the eye. Had the man died his wife and children would be none the wiser and would be devastated at the loss, when instead he was caught out in the most horrific circumstances. Karma.

hmmn!letssee

AlekSmart wrote: »

And you have,most elequently,said your piece...however bizzarre it may be.

The "piece",does however tend to underline my point that,when faced with serious potentially threatening issues of greater public concern,the Irish way is to seek out and agonize over vaporous semi-moral potential side-tracks.

Hmmn!letsee does'nt elaborate on the marital status of the individual,but presumably is intimately familiar with that situation ?

I tend to be far more concerned at the mechanics of being stabbed in the back,without provovation,by a stranger with a long bladed knife on a City Centre street....

here is my reply,

omahaid

I've always felt that if you have > 100 convictions then rehabilitation has failed and you have resigned from society. Like this chap

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-found-guilty-of-murder-has-118-previous-convictions-588732.html

Pendu

There is an Irish version - three strikes and sure it'll be grand.

AlekSmart

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

Yes sorry for my bizarre piece as you put it, yes i am extremely familiar with the marital status of the man, however not familiar enough it seems..as i had to find out about the 'girlfriend' through the media. Yes i'm sure my post is in the wrong place and is of little consequence to anyone on here, of course the bigger issue is he was violently stabbed whilst going about his 'business' however there is always more to any story than meets the eye. Had the man died his wife and children would be none the wiser and would be devastated at the loss, when instead he was caught out in the most horrific circumstances. Karma.

Karma....Karma... ??

Indeed....I have to say Hmmn!letssee,that my bizzarreometer has broken it's needle after your clarifying reply...

In your OP you suggest.....

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

So correct me if I'm wrong,but you are suggesting that because Mr Byrne was in the company of a younger woman (and foreign to boot !!) it automatically follows that they are up to no (moral) good ?

Relationships,be they marriages,partnerships,friendships or whatever are no longer the sole preserve of staid committed individuals,if indeed they ever were.
Instead,modern relationships are far more dynamic and fluid than at any time in our (Irish) past,with many people able to enjoy far more fulfilling and enlightened companionships than ever before.

Are married people not allowed to socialize independently with people other than their spouses ?

Are you suggesting that this gentleman is somehow or other abusive to his wife and children ? (assuming,all the time that YOU are not equally misinformed as to the status of his "marriage").

Are you in some way speaking on behalf of this "Wife and Children"..?

Could it not be entirely posssible that the description "Girlfriend" was simply tacked on by a lazy assumptive Sub-Editor ?

I thought the initial attack and it's background was indeed sad....

.....But even sadder is the creepy sensation that you are indeed taking some form of righteous satisfaction out of this attack on both Mr Kenny and Ms Doyzaite.

Crikey,hmmn!letsee,I somehow or other suspect that you have'nt thought this "Karma" thing through...:o

end of the road

TheBza wrote: »

id love if they brought in the death penalty here.

awwwwwwwwwww. well you can forget it as it isn't going to happen, ireland has moved on, were a forward thinking country and med-eval punishments are not welcome here, they don't work, never have, never will

end of the road

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

the papers are great with getting accurate information,pity

really? i'm sure their partial to making things up if it suits their story and agenda.

hmmn!letssee wrote: »

they didn't get the part about the second man having a wife and children...what a terrible time he and his "girlfriend" must be having.

well believe it or not married men can be friends with or in the company of women without wanting to get in to their pants.

hmmn!letssee

AlekSmart wrote: »

Karma....Karma... ??

Indeed....I have to say Hmmn!letssee,that my bizzarreometer has broken it's needle after your clarifying reply...

In your OP you suggest.....



So correct me if I'm wrong,but you are suggesting that because Mr Byrne was in the company of a younger woman (and foreign to boot !!) it automatically follows that they are up to no (moral) good ?

Relationships,be they marriages,partnerships,friendships or whatever are no longer the sole preserve of staid committed individuals,if indeed they ever were.
Instead,modern relationships are far more dynamic and fluid than at any time in our (Irish) past,with many people able to enjoy far more fulfilling and enlightened companionships than ever before.

Are married people not allowed to socialize independently with people other than their spouses ?

Are you suggesting that this gentleman is somehow or other abusive to his wife and children ? (assuming,all the time that YOU are not equally misinformed as to the status of his "marriage").

Are you in some way speaking on behalf of this "Wife and Children"..?

Could it not be entirely posssible that the description "Girlfriend" was simply tacked on by a lazy assumptive Sub-Editor ?

I thought the initial attack and it's background was indeed sad....

.....But even sadder is the creepy sensation that you are indeed taking some form of righteous satisfaction out of this attack on both Mr Kenny and Ms Doyzaite.

Crikey,hmmn!letsee,I somehow or other suspect that you have'nt thought this "Karma" thing through...:o

perhaps mr Byrne's wife was under the impression that mr Byrne was not supposed to be having any social contact with ms Dryzaite, after she was 'involved' in mr Byrne's marriage while mrs Byrne was pregnant with their second child who is only ten months old. ms Dryzaite's mother gave an interview with the star on wednesday,referring to them as a couple who had been in the gym earlier that night.(which was news to mrs Byrne) yes it was a horrific incident,one which could have left two children without their father, but none the less a most unfortunate way to get caught...i am not taking satisfaction from this situation in the slightest, it brings me no joy whatsoever, the word 'karma' just sprung to mind.

hmmn!letssee

end of the road wrote: »

really? i'm sure their partial to making things up if it suits their story and agenda.

well believe it or not married men can be friends with or in the company of women without wanting to get in to their pants.

not this one he can't!