Dublin city centre bus/coach parking/stops

Hogzy

devnull wrote: »

Which 2012 bus is this? The two liveried examples are both 2011 vehicles.

I'm just curious, seeing as you've bumped two GoBE threads, and also posted a statement about the GoBE service in the Aircoach thread without mentioning the actual post it was about.

Seems very much like shill behaviour to me.....

Sorry, I meant the liveries 2011 bus with the Cork-Dublin-Dublin Airport stickers..

Shill behaviour? WTF are you talking about. I am complimenting a good service, Jesus any time someone compliments a service on boards you get people like you assuming I work for the company. Get a life.

devnull

Thanks for clarifying your misleading comments.

The bus that I was on was immaculate on all 4 occasions, probably because it is brand new

Okay, so you say the bus is brand new.

The 2012 bus is very smooth and quiet.

Here you say it was from 2012.

Sorry, I meant the liveries 2011 bus

If you did mean that really you'd not have used the brand new terms along with it would you as you'd know that 2011 is not brand new. But it seems you were trying to mislead.

Therefore as two facts in your post could be considered as trying it mislead people in order to promote a service, in addition to digging up not one, or two but three threads, seems a little bit strange.

If you wanted to make a point about GoBE why not just make it in one thread? You clearly went searching for multiple threads and a normal person would not do that, they'd post in one.

I'm all for people posting their opinion on boards, and posting facts, but misleading information happens too much related to Irish Rail, Private operators, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann by people who have agendas and I get sick of seeing it here, which is why I rarely post these days.

Richard Logue

I would agree that bus stops and stations should be in the care of the NTA and what's more there should be a single bus stop that multiple operators serve.

I cannot understand for the life of me why multiple bus stops per operator are tolerated, not only do they result in excessive street furniture, but when an operator goes out of business such as the Circle line in Kildare, the bus stops are just left to rot.

bk

Richard Logue, I agree 100%

The recent installation of the Real Time Information Signs is particularly stupid, duplicating many Dublin Bus stops just a meter or two a way.

I've seen many crazy situations in town now with tourists/foreigners queueing at the RTPI pole, while locals queue at the DB pole and then mayhem as one queue runs to the other as the bus driver randomly decided to stop at the DB pole or the RTPI pole!!

Where there are RTPI poles, the DB poles and other operators poles should be removed and instead an emblem and time table placed on the RTPI pole.

LXFlyer

I would agree with equal access to bus stations, but I fail to see why BE should be obliged to split in two, as thereby we end up with two operations that could cost considerably more than BE does right now. That makes absolutely no sense.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Richard Logue, I agree 100%

The recent installation of the Real Time Information Signs is particularly stupid, duplicating many Dublin Bus stops just a meter or two a way.

I've seen many crazy situations in town now with tourists/foreigners queueing at the RTPI pole, while locals queue at the DB pole and then mayhem as one queue runs to the other as the bus driver randomly decided to stop at the DB pole or the RTPI pole!!

Where there are RTPI poles, the DB poles and other operators poles should be removed and instead an emblem and time table placed on the RTPI pole.

The bus stops should of course be a unique design that fits all operators, although I don't agree with combining with the RTPI signs - there really wouldn't be enough space to fit a bus stop flag with the route info onto it.

At the same time long distance operators with longer dwell times should not be allowed take up existing city bus stop spaces.

I'm specifically thinking of Westmoreland St here which should never have been allowed become a stop for long distance operators. It is an accident waiting to happen.

LXFlyer

To be honest in time I imagine that the NTA will take control of information, stops, bus stations, etc.

However, I would imagine that this will be (and correctly in my view) a gradual approach. As it is, they have quite a lot on their plate, and there would have to be a fairly major transfer of staff / new recruitment to get this in place.

devnull

There also needs to be a better distribution of services at some bus stops. Sometimes you see stops that have lots of buses going to them and buses unable to pull in but another stop further down the same round has little buses serving it

Westmoreland Street became a coach stop because of the bus stops being removed from one half of O'Connell Street if I remember correctly as it was a few years ago.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Well it is still a massive improvement over what I was seeing on the route just a few months ago.

Every time I take it, it seems to be busier and busier.

+100% to that sentiment bk.

The success of the operators on these services,is however,showing up the lack of forethought in other area's of Policy,notable the issue of City Termini.

Westmoreland Street was NEVER a viable location for any Long-Dwell Coach Inter Urban service,let alone a brace of them.

With the impending LuasBX work now setting the pace,we need some level of intelligent planning as to a City Centre Terminus.

I would suggest that the NTA look again at Strand Street,which since Dublin Bus abandoned it,has been lying empty and unused.

There is absolutely no reason,that with a little effort put into general Traffic Management and Administration,the site could not offer a basic level of functionality combined with increased comfort/security.

It would cost very little in real terms and would offer much,particularly in terms of maintaining links with existing PT services.

It remains imperative to force the NTA/DCC/An Garda Siochana to recognise the difference between Inter-Urban COACH services and Stage-Carriage BUS Services and to allow each type of service to function safely,as they both have substantially different operational requirements.

bk

Yes Westmoreland Street is a disaster waiting to happen.

Standing there for an hour on Friday showed me just how chaotic it is !!

An Aircoach coach for Cork, had pulled out of College St onto Westmoreland St, but spent ten minutes in the middle lane of Westmoreland St as it couldn't pull into the bus stop, due to a queue of 4 Dublin Bus buses taking up the inside lane. The whole of Westmoreland St, almost all lanes were choked up with buses of all types.

I'm not kidding, it was literally parked in the middle of the street for more then 10 minutes!!

Though I have to agree with Devnull, there looks like there is enough room for the long dwell intercity services there, they don't seem to really overlap:

- Dublin Coach to Limerick at quarter to the hour.
- Aircoach to Cork on the hour
- Aircoach to Airport service, much more frequent, but doesn't hang around, stops picks up and goes, much like Dublin Bus.

So really there is usually only ever two coaches there at a time and there is adequate space for that.

The big problem seems to be the large number of Dublin Buses stopping at the two stops at either side of fleet street.

BTW where is Strand St? Google Maps shows it down by Ringsend Park, I assume you aren't talking about that?

Yes I won't be surprised if there is a continued readjustment away from city Airport services to intercity services. Though as Devnull points out, not a total withdrawal, but probably a rationalisation of under performing routes.

I will say though, that the Airport services at Westmoreland St on Friday looked to be pretty busy. But then there was an Aircoach guy at the stops there assisting passengers, so no taxi's were trying anything on.

I wonder given the seeming success of the Cork route if Aircoach might look at expanding to other intercity routes. Limerick maybe or Waterford, etc. ?

devnull

The Westmoreland Street situation was caused by removing bus stops from the first section of lower O'Connell Street which forced all of the services to be moved either to upper O'Connell Street or Westmoreland Street. It was made worse by allowing operators to add more and more services to the stops which were already overcrowded.

I don't agree that the Aircoach Cork service should have to move from Westmoreland Street since they were forced to move there due to the removal of their previous stop at O'Connell Street lower and they have been there for many many years. There are many services who have only been added in the last few years to stop there that should be the first ones to go in the interest of fairness.

There is an argument however for making Aircoach on their airport bound routes, City Tour companies and Bus Eireann along with Dublin Bus pick Westmoreland Street or Suffolk Street for each service, as quite frankly stopping in both is unsustainable. I agree as well that the Dublin Coach service should not have been permitted when the stop was already overcrowded.

The Suffolk Street issue is one that could easily be fixed with a better distribution of Dublin Bus routes among the two stops they have there. At the moment the stop nearest the City Tours, Aircoach and Bus Eireann stop has all the high frequency cross city services stopping at it whilst the one closest to Grafton Street has far less services and also less frequent services serving it, despite it's the stop with the most room.

There also needs to be a ban on buses being parked out of service on Westmoreland Street, such as city tour buses sitting there purely to sell tickets, visiting tourist vehicles which don't even have a stop there, and Dublin Bus vehicles which are abandoned by drivers who are taking a break and then coming back to work a short 16 to the airport.

Also there are obvious commercial reasons as to why the CIE group of companies would like to remove private competitors from lucrative city center stops. Remember during network direct when cross city routes were brought in Dublin Bus has increased the number of routes serving both Suffolk Street and Westmoreland Street.

SandyfordGuy

It's a bit ironic Dublin Bus staff complaining about too many vehicles on that street when by far the biggest increase in vehicles on both of those roads were caused by their own extended routes which dramatically increased the numbers of services serving them. Did they think of the overcrowding when they did that?

For them to now claim that the street is overcrowded is laughable considering the very same services they say are overcrowding them, were there when they decided to add several high frequency services, but the way some people go on you'd swear they were the other way around and there had been some sudden big increase in private services overnight.

It's also worrying if they are able to force other operators with them to move, despite the fact the competitors may have been there for longer than the new network direct routes, or extended routes which started stopping there some years later. This strategy could be used to move the competition from prime city center locations that are attractive to potential passengers, therefore benefiting other arms of their business indirectly.

This is why the other solutions offered by the two posters above are much more fairer. Who the operator is shouldn't come into it.

devnull

These issues are just the symptoms of the underlying problem however, namely:
- Dublin Bus Stops are too close together in far too many places
- Dublin Bus dwell times are far too high due to fare system
- Dublin Bus dwell times are far too high due to use of one door.
- Too may bus stops have too many services running down them.

If you fix the above, the issue becomes much smaller. But it's easier to remove services than actually address these fundamental problems which would make everything run much more efficiently and therefore even reduce costs.

LXFlyer

Just a few of points on this:

1) I totally agree with a reanalysis of the stops between St Stephen's Green/Dame Street and Parnell Square - there is no need for Dublin Bus routes (for example) to stop at three stops from Dawson Street to Westmoreland Street.

2) I also totally agree that the practice of parking city tour buses at various stops should cease and designated areas for it should be provided instead.

3) I don't think that there are additional buses arising from the Network Direct process stopping on Westmoreland Street which is the street under discussion here - if anything more routes were removed from it. This is a complete red herring.

4) The location is frankly not where long distance services should be starting from. Far better are locations on the Quays where it is much safer to do so, where there is space to safely park and load coaches, or as Alek suggests redeveloping the old Dublin Bus parking area at Strand Street into a long distance hub for other operators. Westmoreland Street really is only suitable for services with reasonably short dwell times.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

3) I don't think that there are additional buses arising from the Network Direct process stopping on Westmoreland Street which is the street under discussion here - if anything more routes were removed from it. This is a complete red herring.

Suffolk Street was a different story though.

4) The location is frankly not where long distance services should be starting from.

That doesn't come into it for me simply because some services have been there for a while so that should stand for something, they should not be forced to move. As I said, last in, first out is the fair way to do it, but that would not suit certain people obviously.

Far better are locations on the Quays where it is much safer to do so, where there is space to safely park and load coaches,

It's unfair to other operators who have been there for years to be forced to move, which would be of benefit to the CIE group of companies in more way than one. The stop was granted, that happened, don't think you can punish long term services now.

There should have been a ban on extra services being added years ago when it was obvious it would be overcrowded and the Dublin Coach service should never have been allowed to park there I agree, but you know that didn't happen.

Real questions need to be asked about the local authorities and why they let such a situation develop and why they removed several stops on O'Connell Street as this has caused the problem since the City Tours and Aircoach etc had stops here before they were removed.

Westmoreland Street really is only suitable for services with reasonably short dwell times.

As stated above, the long dwell times are things which are happening on the city services as well, because of the way Dublin Bus services are operated, with the fare system, lack of two doors, closeness of stops and too many buses serving each stop playing a large part of that.

If you move the Aircoach airport services, it then becomes only fair to move the 16 as well, since I've noticed the 16 has even longer dwell times than the Aircoach services since there tends to be lots more people getting it. I would be in favour though of stopping the Aircoach airport service using the Westmoreland Street and just Suffolk street.

Alternatively the fundamental problem with dwell times could be dealt with and stops (Both DB, Tour and coaches) spread out which would be the best end result in my opinion.

bk

One major advantage that Westmoreland St has over the Quays for long dwell services is that the footpath is much wider on Westmoreland St, giving far more space for the large number of people waiting for the intercity services.

For instance the Citylink to Galway location on the quays is very crammed. With almost no room for people to walk by.

dowlingm

would some kind soul please post a GMaps/Bing link to the Strand depot location please and thanks?

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

would some kind soul please post a GMaps/Bing link to the Strand depot location please and thanks?

Great Strand Street runs from Capel St to Liffey Street between Abbey Street and Ormond Quay/Bachelors Walk.

The site is adjacent to Jervis Luas Stop and has access from both Abbey Street and,slightly more restricted,onto Gt Strand St itself.

With a little application and some robust Traffic Management and Parking Control it could easily handle the current Coach Traffic in an Off-Street environment.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

One major advantage that Westmoreland St has over the Quays for long dwell services is that the footpath is much wider on Westmoreland St, giving far more space for the large number of people waiting for the intercity services.

For instance the Citylink to Galway location on the quays is very crammed. With almost no room for people to walk by.

It's worth bearing in mind that the construction phase of Luas BXD will be commencing before August this year.

This will eventually entail MAJOR revisions of ALL Westmoreland Street traffic,including every Bus and Coach service currently attempting to operate from that small cramped location.

What should be occupying posters minds is whether the Authorities have ANY specific plans relating to the services.

I will say again that a distinction has to be made between Long-Dwell Inter-Urban coach services and Stage Carriage Bus services.....the requirements of each are vastly different.

Currently,I would suggest that the Westmoreland Street situation would not pass a professional Risk Assessment,which may explain why such a,now commonplace,procedure has so far been sidelined by the authorities.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

Great Strand Street runs from Capel St to Liffey Street between Abbey Street and Ormond Quay/Bachelors Walk. The site is adjacent to Jervis Luas Stop and has access from both Abbey Street and,slightly more restricted,onto Gt Strand St itself

I know another bus operator (DB?) were looking at that site before so I bow to their domain expertise but it all looks very cramped to me. The junctions on the access roads look awful for buses, the site doesn't leave much room to maneuver, a single illegally parked car on the approach roads could block the whole thing and finally, the site seems so small that no turning circle could be constructed so all traffic would be forced out onto Abbey St, causing conflict with the red Luas line.

For reference, here is how LA builds a bus hub for their urban bus service: http://goo.gl/maps/yA8Oe. Note the large turning circle, large corner radii at the entry and exit junction, the junction is also traffic light controlled (something that we still haven't managed at Broadstone), places for buses to park when they're out of service, park & ride spaces and kiss & ride/drop-off spaces. It's also right on top of a metro station. Of course it's a suburban bus station so they had plenty of space to work with but you have to wonder if we could shoe-horn even part of that functionality into Strand St.

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

I know another bus operator (DB?) were looking at that site before so I bow to their domain expertise but it all looks very cramped to me. The junctions on the access roads look awful for buses, the site doesn't leave much room to maneuver, a single illegally parked car on the approach roads could block the whole thing and finally, the site seems so small that no turning circle could be constructed so all traffic would be forced out onto Abbey St, causing conflict with the red Luas line.

Mark.

The site was owned by CIE property and we (BAC) used it as an off-street Bus-Park for some years in an attempt to comply with DCC's wish to get parked buses off the streets.

It could cope with approx 12 buses with ease,so allowing to Passenger Safety I would suggest it could more than easily cope with the current level of Westmoreland Street Coach Movements.

The site was subsequently sold for a Hotel Development,with BAC securing the rights to a small ground level Bus Interchange as an integral part of the development.

However,the Hotel developer apparently was unable to proceed with the project due to the financial collapse,so the entire project now lies in limbo.

Whilst yes,it was/is "tight",the BAC vehicles were all able to negotiate in and out of the yard.
This was with NO active assistance or Traffic Management Plan in place.

My point is that with a small amount of pro-active Bus Priority,and shared operation with Luas along Abbey Street it would allow a far safer and more flexible Coach terminal than what exists kerbside on Westmoreland Street.

monument

Google Maps shows the Great Strand Street site and the street:



I know nothing of what was planned for access, but, at this point, any buses going out onto Abbey Street should be ruled out given the massive footfall the tram stop brings to the footpath and the amount of trams. Great Strand Street would have to deal with in and out access.

monument

markpb wrote: »

For reference, here is how LA builds a bus hub for their urban bus service: http://goo.gl/maps/yA8Oe. Note the large turning circle, large corner radii at the entry and exit junction, the junction is also traffic light controlled (something that we still haven't managed at Broadstone), places for buses to park when they're out of service, park & ride spaces and kiss & ride/drop-off spaces. It's also right on top of a metro station. Of course it's a suburban bus station so they had plenty of space to work with but you have to wonder if we could shoe-horn even part of that functionality into Strand St.

A very urban, city centre version in Copenhagen at Nørreport (Here it is on Street View.), pics mine:



Three door buses used:



Behind that is an example of real time and bus timetables in one slab:

bk

That Copenhagen bus stop I want here 100 times over.

RTPI on the top of the pole, multiple operators signs along the pole, a Leap card reader (simple one that can display balance, apply automated top-ups and maybe tag-off buses).

Really no reason why it couldn't have been done here.

You could also have one pole cover two stops. Each operator sign would have either an A or B on it. Then you would have to adjacent bus stops clearly marked out on the ground with A and B on them and the pole in the middle.

It would greatly reduce the number of unnecessary poles and street furniture in the city.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

I know nothing of what was planned for access, but, at this point, any buses going out onto Abbey Street should be ruled out given the massive footfall the tram stop brings to the footpath and the amount of trams. Great Strand Street would have to deal with in and out access.

The Abbey Street access issue is nowhere as difficult as it may first appear.

It should be noted that the Luas already shares the road-space with Heavy Commercial Vehicles servicing the large Marks and Spencer store and also Commercial Vehicles accessing the Jervis Centre underground stores area.

Given that the Coach Departures are nowhere near as frequent as the general Bus service,it follows that some reasonable level of planning should be capable of integrating a small facility with the other aspects of a City's life ?

I never had issue with accessing via Abbey Street itself,save for illegally parked Private Cars,but in this instance a combination of Gt Strand Street and Abbey St could be used depending on the destination and routing of the Coach.

Quite possibly the most contentious element would be convincing Dublin City Council to surrender On Street Car Parking Spaces along Gt Strand Street in order to facilitate Public Transport,the chances of this happening without a fight would be slim indeed.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should be noted that the Luas already shares the road-space with Heavy Commercial Vehicles servicing the large Marks and Spencer store and also Commercial Vehicles accessing the Jervis Centre underground stores area.

Slightly OT but two weeks ago one of these trucks broke down in front of the Luas and there was 4 Luas's lined up behind it as they waited for a tow truck!!

AlekSmart wrote: »

Quite possibly the most contentious element would be convincing Dublin City Council to surrender On Street Car Parking Spaces along Gt Strand Street in order to facilitate Public Transport,the chances of this happening without a fight would be slim indeed.

Err... I've some insight into city car parking matters, more like you will have to claw them off of their cold dead hands!!

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

As stated above, the long dwell times are things which are happening on the city services as well, because of the way Dublin Bus services are operated, with the fare system, lack of two doors, closeness of stops and too many buses serving each stop playing a large part of that.

If you move the Aircoach airport services, it then becomes only fair to move the 16 as well, since I've noticed the 16 has even longer dwell times than the Aircoach services since there tends to be lots more people getting it. I would be in favour though of stopping the Aircoach airport service using the Westmoreland Street and just Suffolk street.

Alternatively the fundamental problem with dwell times could be dealt with and stops (Both DB, Tour and coaches) spread out which would be the best end result in my opinion.

I don't understand your logic relating to Aircoach and the 16s. They are different types of service and operated by different companies. I regularly get other buses from Westmoreland St. and I have never seen anything except massive queues for Dublin Coach and Aircoach in comparison to the 16. If anyone could have a look at that bus stop at 7 this evening for example, they could see this for themselves. I think the 16 can get a huge crowd at the O'Connell St. stop, but Westmoreland Street?

Does anyone here think that the 16 has a longer dwell time than Aircoach has at the Westmoreland Street stop?


The Great Strand Street site would be suitable if some of the car parking spaces were given up. Considering the public transport and safety benefits, this should be done as a matter of course upon the request of operators. It's a sad reflection of the city council that they would oppose it so much.

devnull

To Be Confirmed - you're comparing apples and oranges if you are comparing all Aircoach vehicles since if you read the post that was earlier outlined I was comparing airport bound buses which is what the 16 and the Aircoach Airport routes are. It's like taking into account the dwell times of every Dublin Bus service that stops on the whole of Westmoreland Street.

The 16 picks more passengers up than the Aircoach Airport Route at Westmoreland Street so generally does have around the same if not longer dwell time. The Dublin Coach and Aircoach Cork routes are in a different category altogether siunce they are long distance coach services. I've already said the Dublin Coach service should never have been allowed more.

In any case, as I said, there is no reason for both the 16 and Aircoach airport routes to stop at both Suffolk Street and Westmoreland Street, but that goes for pretty much all the services that stop at both which would ease the congestion easily. In fact there is a lot more the NTA and Dublin Bus could do to sort the problems out with parking.

It also annoys me when people constantly say that Dublin Coach and Aircoach should move but the fact is a lot of the problems in congestion at both of those stops that are also caused by Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus city tour vehicles as well as related to Dublin Bus practices that increase dwell times. It would be nice if someone dealt with the problems rather than the symptoms.

Someone said the land is owned by CIE? Is that the case?

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

To Be Confirmed - you're comparing apples and oranges if you are comparing all Aircoach vehicles since if you read the post that was earlier outlined I was comparing airport bound buses which is what the 16 and the Aircoach Airport routes are. It's like taking into account the dwell times of every Dublin Bus service that stops on the whole of Westmoreland Street.

The 16 picks more passengers up than the Aircoach Airport Route at Westmoreland Street so generally does have around the same if not longer dwell time. The Dublin Coach and Aircoach Cork routes are in a different category altogether.

Someone said the land is owned by CIE? Is that the case?

I'm not, I'm thinking of Airport-bound Aircoach services. I really haven't seen anything more than typically 5 or 6 people wait for a 16 at Westmoreland St. while I've seen far larger crowds wait for the next Aircoach to the airport. Yesterday evening for example. I'm just suprised at the claim as it's quite different to my own regular experiences. Also, do services from Cork to the airport pick up passengers from Westmoreland St for the airport? That would muddy the waters further.

devnull

Services TO Cork depart from Westmoreland Street on the hour.. Aircoach now set down passengers from Cork down the quays at Batchelors walk to ease congestion at Westmoreland Street as previously they operated to there.

I can only speak of my experiences from before 7pm but I normally see more people waiting for a 16 than an Aircoach AIRPORT service there, since most of those passengers are getting poached by taxis which is why Aircoach are cutting back the airport routes from next week.

LXFlyer

I actually think Strand Street would be perfect for developing a bus station - entry via Abbey Street and exit via Strand Street.

It would be a far safer off-street environment for passengers and the numbers of coaches using it would not cause undue disruption to either street.

CIE do own the land.

devnull

If they own the land then I can't see private operators wanting to move there with very good reason. If however the land is acquired by a neutral third party such as the NTA or the DCC for instance then it might be more of a goer but the area would need have a bit of development done to it before it's in a fit state.

LXFlyer

Well perhaps the land should be taken off them by the NTA? I was hardly thinking that it would continue to be administered by CIE if being used by private operators.

Of course it would need developing - that's sort of obvious.

The point is, it's central and would provide a far safer location for loading long-distance coaches.

SandyfordGuy

So just to go over the facts.

1) CIE Employee on this thead recommends that private coach services are relocated from Westmoreland Street since it is too busy.
2) They recommend a new site which is run-down and in need of redevelopment
3) That site also happens to be owned by CIE.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the site is so good, and CIE own it, why do they not run their own services down there, if they are concerned about overcrowding? They could park out of service buses there and City Tour buses there instead of Westmoreland Street no?

Of course!
1) It allows them to remove their competitors from the most high profile city stops
2) It also allows them to keep an eye on their competitors since they will now be using CIE Land.
3) It allows them to gain money from charging their competition to use bus stop facilities, to prop their own services up with extra income.

It's a shame that once again the people who are CIE staff who originally proposed this site, and the usual people who back up everything CIE does, would propose it, when such situation may help the company they love.

How much other infrastructure do CIE own around the city that they are not using? If there are lots of roads like this then one has to say, why don't they sell the land, if they are not losing them, seeing as they claim finances are so desperate, or alternatively make some use of it if the city center is so crowded?

It's like an operator bidding for airport space to park coaches and buses in Dublin Airport, then going and parking them in the coach park to take up space, then complaining when the coach park is overcrowded.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps the land should be taken off them by the NTA? I was hardly thinking that it would continue to be administered by CIE if being used by private operators.

Do we have any idea how much the land is worth?

I don't see why private operators should be singled out here, if this is going to be done it has to be done in a fair fashion, which means not by operator, but neutrally. if this is to happen, and I'm not sure of the merits of it yet in my own mind, the following should go there.

1) Dualway Open Top Tours
2) Dublin Bus Open Top Tours
3) Visiting Coaches (which shouldn't be in Westmoreland Street anyway)
4) Dublin Coach
5) Aircoach Cork services
6) Ferry connect bus services
7) All Bus Eireann services
8) No buses to be parked up out of service for driver breaks.

We should not be moving services just because they are private and others are public as that is not a fair playing field then, because right now there is a bigger gap between them. There should never be the current segregation between the private companies and public when it comes to priority, the first thought should be for the passenger and not which company is deemed the most important. Thankfully the upcoming NTA numbering project for ALL licensed bus services is a step closer to this.

lucernarian

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

So just to go over the facts.

1) CIE Employee on this thead recommends that private coach services are relocated from Westmoreland Street since it is too busy.
2) They recommend a new site which is run-down and in need of redevelopment
3) That site also happens to be owned by CIE.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the site is so good, and CIE own it, why do they not run their own services down there, if they are concerned about overcrowding? They could park out of service buses there and City Tour buses there instead of Westmoreland Street no?

Of course!
1) It allows them to remove their competitors from the most high profile city stops
2) It also allows them to keep an eye on their competitors since they will now be using CIE Land.
3) It allows them to gain money from charging their competition to use bus stop facilities, to prop their own services up with extra income.

It's a shame that once again the people who are CIE staff who originally proposed this site, and the usual people who back up everything CIE does, would propose it, when such situation may help the company they love.

How much other infrastructure do CIE own around the city that they are not using? If there are lots of roads like this then one has to say, why don't they sell the land, if they are not losing them, seeing as they claim finances are so desperate, or alternatively make some use of it if the city center is so crowded?

It's like an operator bidding for airport space to park coaches and buses in Dublin Airport, then going and parking them in the coach park to take up space, then complaining when the coach park is overcrowded.

That's not a fair argument, I think most posters were of the feeling that long-distance services should be moved to the Strand St. site. Nobody said that the Bus Eireann 100X stop on Westmoreland St. should be regarded any differently and kept on Westmoreland St.

I suspect the solution for that is to simply have it use Suffolk St. and Eden quay only but that's an aside.

You're also ignoring calls made here by posters to have the site operated under the auspices of the NTA or some other agency, not CIÉ.

Also, what have city tour services of either the red or green kind have to do with developing a site for long-distance intercity bus services??

devnull

There are city tour services that are idling at Westmoreland Street for long periods to be fair, especially in the summer season which is blocking up access for ALL operators. Some of them are parked for hours at a time which are just selling tickets.

This is not so much of a problem this time a year but happens in the summer every year. The practice isn't just restricted to Westmoreland Street though, it happens at College Green and O'Connell Street too and something needs to be done.

The Suffolk Street issue is another one which could easily be solved to some degree by a better distribution of buses per stop and not having so many places stop at Westmoreland Street and Suffolk Street. There is no need to stop at both AND then O'Connell Street AND Parnell Square

lucernarian

devnull wrote:

I don't see why private operators should be singled out here, if this is going to be done it has to be done in a fair fashion, which means not by operator, but neutrally. if this is to happen, and I'm not sure of the merits of it yet in my own mind, the following should go there.

I don't see how private operators were singled out there. If the facility was used by both CIÉ and private operators, wouldn't it still be a good idea to have a neutral agency in charge of its operation and development? I would also think that if private operators were to use the site, it shouldn't be under the control/ownership of CIÉ. Who said that CIÉ couldn't use the site however?

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'm not, I'm thinking of Airport-bound Aircoach services. I really haven't seen anything more than typically 5 or 6 people wait for a 16 at Westmoreland St. while I've seen far larger crowds wait for the next Aircoach to the airport. Yesterday evening for example. I'm just suprised at the claim as it's quite different to my own regular experiences. Also, do services from Cork to the airport pick up passengers from Westmoreland St for the airport? That would muddy the waters further.

I frequently use the 16 from Westmoreland St (it is my regular bus home) and there can often be 20 or more people boarding it at peak times.

The Aircoach Airport bound coaches I almost never see more then 5 or 6 people boarding there and yes, it parks, picks up and leaves very quickly, typically quicker then the 16.

The recent crowds at the Aircoach stop on Westmoreland St are usually for the Cork service.

I saw all of this last Friday evening while standing there for two hours waiting for the Aircoach to Cork. Big crowds for the Cork service, the Airport services relatively light and very quick dwell times.

I have to agree with others that I find it highly questionable that some CIE supporters are suggesting private operators be pushed out of one of the best stop locations in the city and which they have been using for years and instead forced into a relatively dodgy and unattractive location that is actually owned by CIE !!

devnull

My point is that some people are giving the impression that it should be a PRIVATE coach area when it shouldn't just be that, a two tier system is not the answer, saying that, yes, all Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann should use main roads but private should use side roads.

I agree it should be a neutral third party in charge of such area when there are going to be several different companies there, but then that should be the case for all bus stations IMHO.

SandyfordGuy

The trouble is, some people don't see the bigger picture.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

Do we have any idea how much the land is worth?

I don't see why private operators should be singled out here, if this is going to be done it has to be done in a fair fashion, which means not by operator, but neutrally. if this is to happen, and I'm not sure of the merits of it yet in my own mind, the following should go there.

1) Dualway Open Top Tours
2) Dublin Bus Open Top Tours
3) Visiting Coaches (which shouldn't be in Westmoreland Street anyway)
4) Dublin Coach
5) Aircoach Cork services
6) Ferry connect bus services
7) All Bus Eireann services
8) No buses to be parked up out of service for driver breaks.

We should not be moving services just because they are private and others are public as that is not a fair playing field then, because right now there is a bigger gap between them. There should never be the current segregation between the private companies and public when it comes to priority, the first thought should be for the passenger and not which company is deemed the most important. Thankfully the upcoming NTA numbering project for ALL licensed bus services is a step closer to this.

I've no idea how much its worth but given its location, I'd say its worth quite a lot.

However, Dublin badly needs a second bus station for intercity coach services, and as CIE aren't prepared to use it for their own purposes then I think it should be opened up for redevelopment for all operators to use. As indeed I am on the record of posting here, so should all of the bus stations, which should all be run by an independent authority.

But on street loading of intercity services should be something we should be trying to eradicate.

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

There are city tour services that are idling at Westmoreland Street for long periods to be fair, especially in the summer season which is blocking up access for ALL operators. Some of them are parked for hours at a time which are just selling tickets.

This is not so much of a problem this time a year but happens in the summer every year. The practice isn't just restricted to Westmoreland Street though, it happens at College Green and O'Connell Street too and something needs to be done.

The Suffolk Street issue is another one which could easily be solved to some degree by a better distribution of buses per stop and not having so many places stop at Westmoreland Street and Suffolk Street. There is no need to stop at both AND then O'Connell Street AND Parnell Square

I guess that's a separate point to what ought to be done about the coach stops on Westmoreland Street. I think the Strand St. "station" would cater for intercity coaches of all companies best, rather than including tour services which are of a completely different nature. The solution there might be to prevent or limit their parking in bus stops rather than sending them over to Strand St.

Anyway if action was taken on long-distance coach stops on Westmoreland St. and Suffolk st, I imagine there would be enough space for Aircoach and the 16 bus to coexist I might be mistaken in guessing how many people are waiting for an airport vs Cork service but I've used the bus stops there often enough and there's no way the 16 is taking the numbers there that some people are making out.

SandyfordGuy

Of course, however much it is worth they will try and get much more than that when they realise it will be used by their competitors and then would use such money to aid their own business which to the competition may not be much better than renting from CIE direct.

Some would say in this situation CIE should be made to use more of their assets......

devnull

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I guess that's a separate point to what ought to be done about the coach stops on Westmoreland Street. I think the Strand St. "station" would cater for intercity coaches of all companies best, rather than including tour services which are of a completely different nature.

In the summer the tours are by far the worst offenders, if you think it's bad now wait to the height of the summer when you'll see several vehicles parked in the middle of the road to pick up passengers

Anyway if action was taken on long-distance coach stops on Westmoreland St. and Suffolk st, I imagine there would be enough space for Aircoach and the 16 bus to coexist I might be mistaken in guessing how many people are waiting for an airport vs Cork service but I've used the bus stops there often enough and there's no way the 16 is taking the numbers there that some people are making out.

But in my view this does not deal with what I believe to be the overall problem, which is bus dwell time, use of one set of doors, fare system and stops that are too close together. If you deal with this you deal with so many of the congestion problems right now.

I've been in other cities where they've had much more vehicles stopping than at Westmoreland Street with articulated buses taking up more road room and huge amounts of more pasengers, but the dwell times are only a few seconds.

lucernarian

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Of course, however much it is worth they will try and get much more than that when they realise it will be used by their competitors and then would use such money to aid their own business which to the competition may not be much better than renting from CIE direct.

Some would say in this situation CIE should be made to use more of their assets......

Your earlier post was quite an unfair description of the points being made in this thread. And what's your point here, that CIÉ should sell it to the highest bidder on the open market thereby maximising the value to be obtained from the site? Or that they should give the site to the NRA at little to no cost?

SandyfordGuy

Aircoach got into Belfast Bus Station after a fairly long drawn out fight although techically they're on Glengall street, I believe someone somewhere considers this part of the station. They don't have a bus stop pole up though since apparently they have been asked a huge fee in order to do that. That is why this needs to be neutrally managed since it's ridiculous. that they can't even put a timetable up.

SandyfordGuy

My point is it's a bit like someone complaining their main shed in their garden is full when they have a smaller shed which they don't want to use.

They should sell the site at value, not at a vastly inflated price.

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

In the summer the tours are by far the worst offenders, if you think it's bad now wait to the height of the summer when you'll see several vehicles parked in the middle of the road to pick up passengers



But in my view this does not deal with what I believe to be the overall problem, which is bus dwell time, use of one set of doors, fare system and stops that are too close together. If you deal with this you deal with so many of the congestion problems right now.

I've been in other cities where they've had much more vehicles stopping than at Westmoreland Street with articulated buses taking up more road room and huge amounts of more pasengers, but the dwell times are only a few seconds.

There's not much that can be done right now with the nature of buses here having one door. The fare system ought to be changed, true. And some of those services can afford to lose one or the other of their bus stops on Suffolk and Westmoreland St. though this is mitigated by having somewhat increased dwell times at the remaining stop.

I'm pretty confident that the situation on Westmoreland St. would be considerably improved if intercity services by Bus Éireann and other operators were all moved away from there.

The tours issue is one that probably boils down to law enforcement. I think a purpose-built facility for intercity buses would be wasted by simply shifting the problem of ticket buses over to it.

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

And what's your point here, that CIÉ should sell it to the highest bidder on the open market thereby maximising the value to be obtained from the site? Or that they should give the site to the NRA at little to no cost?

Given that all Bus stations and this site are owned and paid for by the tax payer, then they should be transferred to the NTA at no cost.

BTW Even the Aircoach coaches to Cork don't stick around for long, it is usually pull up, start loading and pull off straight after they finished loading. They never park there long like some other operators do.

Again the problems I saw there last Friday was almost completely down to a very high number of Dublin Buses on the street. There was relatively few Aircoach coaches there in comparison. Even if Aircoach weren't there, it would make little difference. It was like 25 DB buses for every Aircoach coach there.

devnull

Suffolk Street can be easily dealt with by spreading the services better/

For example, the stop which is also a stop for city tours, Bus Eireann and Aircoach has this on RTPI
15B Benson St 1 Mins
70 Dunboyne 2 Mins
38 Damastown 3 Mins
11 Wadelai Pk 3 Mins
145 Heuston Stn 4 Mins
15A Benson Street 4 Mins
145 Heuston Stn 4 Mins
15 Clongriffin 5 Mins
140 IKEA 5 Mins
37 Blanchard 7 Mins
39A Ongar 7 Mins
14 Beaumont 9 Mins

Meanwhile the one which is nearer Grafton Street and has no other buses to share with.
25A Lucan S.C. Due
25B Adamstown 15 Mins
25A Lucan S.C. 30 Mins
25 Dodsboro 33 Mins
25B Adamstown 45 Mins

There is an easy fix there....

Wouldn't get your hopes up on Law Enforcement, if we had a zero tolerence traffic police maybe, but instead it's "Just don't do it again bud"