Dublin city centre bus/coach parking/stops

Hogzy

devnull wrote: »

Which 2012 bus is this? The two liveried examples are both 2011 vehicles.

I'm just curious, seeing as you've bumped two GoBE threads, and also posted a statement about the GoBE service in the Aircoach thread without mentioning the actual post it was about.

Seems very much like shill behaviour to me.....

Sorry, I meant the liveries 2011 bus with the Cork-Dublin-Dublin Airport stickers..

Shill behaviour? WTF are you talking about. I am complimenting a good service, Jesus any time someone compliments a service on boards you get people like you assuming I work for the company. Get a life.

devnull

Thanks for clarifying your misleading comments.

The bus that I was on was immaculate on all 4 occasions, probably because it is brand new

Okay, so you say the bus is brand new.

The 2012 bus is very smooth and quiet.

Here you say it was from 2012.

Sorry, I meant the liveries 2011 bus

If you did mean that really you'd not have used the brand new terms along with it would you as you'd know that 2011 is not brand new. But it seems you were trying to mislead.

Therefore as two facts in your post could be considered as trying it mislead people in order to promote a service, in addition to digging up not one, or two but three threads, seems a little bit strange.

If you wanted to make a point about GoBE why not just make it in one thread? You clearly went searching for multiple threads and a normal person would not do that, they'd post in one.

I'm all for people posting their opinion on boards, and posting facts, but misleading information happens too much related to Irish Rail, Private operators, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann by people who have agendas and I get sick of seeing it here, which is why I rarely post these days.

Richard Logue

I would agree that bus stops and stations should be in the care of the NTA and what's more there should be a single bus stop that multiple operators serve.

I cannot understand for the life of me why multiple bus stops per operator are tolerated, not only do they result in excessive street furniture, but when an operator goes out of business such as the Circle line in Kildare, the bus stops are just left to rot.

bk

Richard Logue, I agree 100%

The recent installation of the Real Time Information Signs is particularly stupid, duplicating many Dublin Bus stops just a meter or two a way.

I've seen many crazy situations in town now with tourists/foreigners queueing at the RTPI pole, while locals queue at the DB pole and then mayhem as one queue runs to the other as the bus driver randomly decided to stop at the DB pole or the RTPI pole!!

Where there are RTPI poles, the DB poles and other operators poles should be removed and instead an emblem and time table placed on the RTPI pole.

LXFlyer

I would agree with equal access to bus stations, but I fail to see why BE should be obliged to split in two, as thereby we end up with two operations that could cost considerably more than BE does right now. That makes absolutely no sense.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Richard Logue, I agree 100%

The recent installation of the Real Time Information Signs is particularly stupid, duplicating many Dublin Bus stops just a meter or two a way.

I've seen many crazy situations in town now with tourists/foreigners queueing at the RTPI pole, while locals queue at the DB pole and then mayhem as one queue runs to the other as the bus driver randomly decided to stop at the DB pole or the RTPI pole!!

Where there are RTPI poles, the DB poles and other operators poles should be removed and instead an emblem and time table placed on the RTPI pole.

The bus stops should of course be a unique design that fits all operators, although I don't agree with combining with the RTPI signs - there really wouldn't be enough space to fit a bus stop flag with the route info onto it.

At the same time long distance operators with longer dwell times should not be allowed take up existing city bus stop spaces.

I'm specifically thinking of Westmoreland St here which should never have been allowed become a stop for long distance operators. It is an accident waiting to happen.

LXFlyer

To be honest in time I imagine that the NTA will take control of information, stops, bus stations, etc.

However, I would imagine that this will be (and correctly in my view) a gradual approach. As it is, they have quite a lot on their plate, and there would have to be a fairly major transfer of staff / new recruitment to get this in place.

devnull

There also needs to be a better distribution of services at some bus stops. Sometimes you see stops that have lots of buses going to them and buses unable to pull in but another stop further down the same round has little buses serving it

Westmoreland Street became a coach stop because of the bus stops being removed from one half of O'Connell Street if I remember correctly as it was a few years ago.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Well it is still a massive improvement over what I was seeing on the route just a few months ago.

Every time I take it, it seems to be busier and busier.

+100% to that sentiment bk.

The success of the operators on these services,is however,showing up the lack of forethought in other area's of Policy,notable the issue of City Termini.

Westmoreland Street was NEVER a viable location for any Long-Dwell Coach Inter Urban service,let alone a brace of them.

With the impending LuasBX work now setting the pace,we need some level of intelligent planning as to a City Centre Terminus.

I would suggest that the NTA look again at Strand Street,which since Dublin Bus abandoned it,has been lying empty and unused.

There is absolutely no reason,that with a little effort put into general Traffic Management and Administration,the site could not offer a basic level of functionality combined with increased comfort/security.

It would cost very little in real terms and would offer much,particularly in terms of maintaining links with existing PT services.

It remains imperative to force the NTA/DCC/An Garda Siochana to recognise the difference between Inter-Urban COACH services and Stage-Carriage BUS Services and to allow each type of service to function safely,as they both have substantially different operational requirements.

bk

Yes Westmoreland Street is a disaster waiting to happen.

Standing there for an hour on Friday showed me just how chaotic it is !!

An Aircoach coach for Cork, had pulled out of College St onto Westmoreland St, but spent ten minutes in the middle lane of Westmoreland St as it couldn't pull into the bus stop, due to a queue of 4 Dublin Bus buses taking up the inside lane. The whole of Westmoreland St, almost all lanes were choked up with buses of all types.

I'm not kidding, it was literally parked in the middle of the street for more then 10 minutes!!

Though I have to agree with Devnull, there looks like there is enough room for the long dwell intercity services there, they don't seem to really overlap:

- Dublin Coach to Limerick at quarter to the hour.
- Aircoach to Cork on the hour
- Aircoach to Airport service, much more frequent, but doesn't hang around, stops picks up and goes, much like Dublin Bus.

So really there is usually only ever two coaches there at a time and there is adequate space for that.

The big problem seems to be the large number of Dublin Buses stopping at the two stops at either side of fleet street.

BTW where is Strand St? Google Maps shows it down by Ringsend Park, I assume you aren't talking about that?

Yes I won't be surprised if there is a continued readjustment away from city Airport services to intercity services. Though as Devnull points out, not a total withdrawal, but probably a rationalisation of under performing routes.

I will say though, that the Airport services at Westmoreland St on Friday looked to be pretty busy. But then there was an Aircoach guy at the stops there assisting passengers, so no taxi's were trying anything on.

I wonder given the seeming success of the Cork route if Aircoach might look at expanding to other intercity routes. Limerick maybe or Waterford, etc. ?

devnull

The Westmoreland Street situation was caused by removing bus stops from the first section of lower O'Connell Street which forced all of the services to be moved either to upper O'Connell Street or Westmoreland Street. It was made worse by allowing operators to add more and more services to the stops which were already overcrowded.

I don't agree that the Aircoach Cork service should have to move from Westmoreland Street since they were forced to move there due to the removal of their previous stop at O'Connell Street lower and they have been there for many many years. There are many services who have only been added in the last few years to stop there that should be the first ones to go in the interest of fairness.

There is an argument however for making Aircoach on their airport bound routes, City Tour companies and Bus Eireann along with Dublin Bus pick Westmoreland Street or Suffolk Street for each service, as quite frankly stopping in both is unsustainable. I agree as well that the Dublin Coach service should not have been permitted when the stop was already overcrowded.

The Suffolk Street issue is one that could easily be fixed with a better distribution of Dublin Bus routes among the two stops they have there. At the moment the stop nearest the City Tours, Aircoach and Bus Eireann stop has all the high frequency cross city services stopping at it whilst the one closest to Grafton Street has far less services and also less frequent services serving it, despite it's the stop with the most room.

There also needs to be a ban on buses being parked out of service on Westmoreland Street, such as city tour buses sitting there purely to sell tickets, visiting tourist vehicles which don't even have a stop there, and Dublin Bus vehicles which are abandoned by drivers who are taking a break and then coming back to work a short 16 to the airport.

Also there are obvious commercial reasons as to why the CIE group of companies would like to remove private competitors from lucrative city center stops. Remember during network direct when cross city routes were brought in Dublin Bus has increased the number of routes serving both Suffolk Street and Westmoreland Street.

SandyfordGuy

It's a bit ironic Dublin Bus staff complaining about too many vehicles on that street when by far the biggest increase in vehicles on both of those roads were caused by their own extended routes which dramatically increased the numbers of services serving them. Did they think of the overcrowding when they did that?

For them to now claim that the street is overcrowded is laughable considering the very same services they say are overcrowding them, were there when they decided to add several high frequency services, but the way some people go on you'd swear they were the other way around and there had been some sudden big increase in private services overnight.

It's also worrying if they are able to force other operators with them to move, despite the fact the competitors may have been there for longer than the new network direct routes, or extended routes which started stopping there some years later. This strategy could be used to move the competition from prime city center locations that are attractive to potential passengers, therefore benefiting other arms of their business indirectly.

This is why the other solutions offered by the two posters above are much more fairer. Who the operator is shouldn't come into it.

devnull

These issues are just the symptoms of the underlying problem however, namely:
- Dublin Bus Stops are too close together in far too many places
- Dublin Bus dwell times are far too high due to fare system
- Dublin Bus dwell times are far too high due to use of one door.
- Too may bus stops have too many services running down them.

If you fix the above, the issue becomes much smaller. But it's easier to remove services than actually address these fundamental problems which would make everything run much more efficiently and therefore even reduce costs.

LXFlyer

Just a few of points on this:

1) I totally agree with a reanalysis of the stops between St Stephen's Green/Dame Street and Parnell Square - there is no need for Dublin Bus routes (for example) to stop at three stops from Dawson Street to Westmoreland Street.

2) I also totally agree that the practice of parking city tour buses at various stops should cease and designated areas for it should be provided instead.

3) I don't think that there are additional buses arising from the Network Direct process stopping on Westmoreland Street which is the street under discussion here - if anything more routes were removed from it. This is a complete red herring.

4) The location is frankly not where long distance services should be starting from. Far better are locations on the Quays where it is much safer to do so, where there is space to safely park and load coaches, or as Alek suggests redeveloping the old Dublin Bus parking area at Strand Street into a long distance hub for other operators. Westmoreland Street really is only suitable for services with reasonably short dwell times.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

3) I don't think that there are additional buses arising from the Network Direct process stopping on Westmoreland Street which is the street under discussion here - if anything more routes were removed from it. This is a complete red herring.

Suffolk Street was a different story though.

4) The location is frankly not where long distance services should be starting from.

That doesn't come into it for me simply because some services have been there for a while so that should stand for something, they should not be forced to move. As I said, last in, first out is the fair way to do it, but that would not suit certain people obviously.

Far better are locations on the Quays where it is much safer to do so, where there is space to safely park and load coaches,

It's unfair to other operators who have been there for years to be forced to move, which would be of benefit to the CIE group of companies in more way than one. The stop was granted, that happened, don't think you can punish long term services now.

There should have been a ban on extra services being added years ago when it was obvious it would be overcrowded and the Dublin Coach service should never have been allowed to park there I agree, but you know that didn't happen.

Real questions need to be asked about the local authorities and why they let such a situation develop and why they removed several stops on O'Connell Street as this has caused the problem since the City Tours and Aircoach etc had stops here before they were removed.

Westmoreland Street really is only suitable for services with reasonably short dwell times.

As stated above, the long dwell times are things which are happening on the city services as well, because of the way Dublin Bus services are operated, with the fare system, lack of two doors, closeness of stops and too many buses serving each stop playing a large part of that.

If you move the Aircoach airport services, it then becomes only fair to move the 16 as well, since I've noticed the 16 has even longer dwell times than the Aircoach services since there tends to be lots more people getting it. I would be in favour though of stopping the Aircoach airport service using the Westmoreland Street and just Suffolk street.

Alternatively the fundamental problem with dwell times could be dealt with and stops (Both DB, Tour and coaches) spread out which would be the best end result in my opinion.

bk

One major advantage that Westmoreland St has over the Quays for long dwell services is that the footpath is much wider on Westmoreland St, giving far more space for the large number of people waiting for the intercity services.

For instance the Citylink to Galway location on the quays is very crammed. With almost no room for people to walk by.

dowlingm

would some kind soul please post a GMaps/Bing link to the Strand depot location please and thanks?

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

would some kind soul please post a GMaps/Bing link to the Strand depot location please and thanks?

Great Strand Street runs from Capel St to Liffey Street between Abbey Street and Ormond Quay/Bachelors Walk.

The site is adjacent to Jervis Luas Stop and has access from both Abbey Street and,slightly more restricted,onto Gt Strand St itself.

With a little application and some robust Traffic Management and Parking Control it could easily handle the current Coach Traffic in an Off-Street environment.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

One major advantage that Westmoreland St has over the Quays for long dwell services is that the footpath is much wider on Westmoreland St, giving far more space for the large number of people waiting for the intercity services.

For instance the Citylink to Galway location on the quays is very crammed. With almost no room for people to walk by.

It's worth bearing in mind that the construction phase of Luas BXD will be commencing before August this year.

This will eventually entail MAJOR revisions of ALL Westmoreland Street traffic,including every Bus and Coach service currently attempting to operate from that small cramped location.

What should be occupying posters minds is whether the Authorities have ANY specific plans relating to the services.

I will say again that a distinction has to be made between Long-Dwell Inter-Urban coach services and Stage Carriage Bus services.....the requirements of each are vastly different.

Currently,I would suggest that the Westmoreland Street situation would not pass a professional Risk Assessment,which may explain why such a,now commonplace,procedure has so far been sidelined by the authorities.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

Great Strand Street runs from Capel St to Liffey Street between Abbey Street and Ormond Quay/Bachelors Walk. The site is adjacent to Jervis Luas Stop and has access from both Abbey Street and,slightly more restricted,onto Gt Strand St itself

I know another bus operator (DB?) were looking at that site before so I bow to their domain expertise but it all looks very cramped to me. The junctions on the access roads look awful for buses, the site doesn't leave much room to maneuver, a single illegally parked car on the approach roads could block the whole thing and finally, the site seems so small that no turning circle could be constructed so all traffic would be forced out onto Abbey St, causing conflict with the red Luas line.

For reference, here is how LA builds a bus hub for their urban bus service: http://goo.gl/maps/yA8Oe. Note the large turning circle, large corner radii at the entry and exit junction, the junction is also traffic light controlled (something that we still haven't managed at Broadstone), places for buses to park when they're out of service, park & ride spaces and kiss & ride/drop-off spaces. It's also right on top of a metro station. Of course it's a suburban bus station so they had plenty of space to work with but you have to wonder if we could shoe-horn even part of that functionality into Strand St.

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

I know another bus operator (DB?) were looking at that site before so I bow to their domain expertise but it all looks very cramped to me. The junctions on the access roads look awful for buses, the site doesn't leave much room to maneuver, a single illegally parked car on the approach roads could block the whole thing and finally, the site seems so small that no turning circle could be constructed so all traffic would be forced out onto Abbey St, causing conflict with the red Luas line.

Mark.

The site was owned by CIE property and we (BAC) used it as an off-street Bus-Park for some years in an attempt to comply with DCC's wish to get parked buses off the streets.

It could cope with approx 12 buses with ease,so allowing to Passenger Safety I would suggest it could more than easily cope with the current level of Westmoreland Street Coach Movements.

The site was subsequently sold for a Hotel Development,with BAC securing the rights to a small ground level Bus Interchange as an integral part of the development.

However,the Hotel developer apparently was unable to proceed with the project due to the financial collapse,so the entire project now lies in limbo.

Whilst yes,it was/is "tight",the BAC vehicles were all able to negotiate in and out of the yard.
This was with NO active assistance or Traffic Management Plan in place.

My point is that with a small amount of pro-active Bus Priority,and shared operation with Luas along Abbey Street it would allow a far safer and more flexible Coach terminal than what exists kerbside on Westmoreland Street.

monument

Google Maps shows the Great Strand Street site and the street:



I know nothing of what was planned for access, but, at this point, any buses going out onto Abbey Street should be ruled out given the massive footfall the tram stop brings to the footpath and the amount of trams. Great Strand Street would have to deal with in and out access.

monument

markpb wrote: »

For reference, here is how LA builds a bus hub for their urban bus service: http://goo.gl/maps/yA8Oe. Note the large turning circle, large corner radii at the entry and exit junction, the junction is also traffic light controlled (something that we still haven't managed at Broadstone), places for buses to park when they're out of service, park & ride spaces and kiss & ride/drop-off spaces. It's also right on top of a metro station. Of course it's a suburban bus station so they had plenty of space to work with but you have to wonder if we could shoe-horn even part of that functionality into Strand St.

A very urban, city centre version in Copenhagen at Nørreport (Here it is on Street View.), pics mine:



Three door buses used:



Behind that is an example of real time and bus timetables in one slab:

bk

That Copenhagen bus stop I want here 100 times over.

RTPI on the top of the pole, multiple operators signs along the pole, a Leap card reader (simple one that can display balance, apply automated top-ups and maybe tag-off buses).

Really no reason why it couldn't have been done here.

You could also have one pole cover two stops. Each operator sign would have either an A or B on it. Then you would have to adjacent bus stops clearly marked out on the ground with A and B on them and the pole in the middle.

It would greatly reduce the number of unnecessary poles and street furniture in the city.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

I know nothing of what was planned for access, but, at this point, any buses going out onto Abbey Street should be ruled out given the massive footfall the tram stop brings to the footpath and the amount of trams. Great Strand Street would have to deal with in and out access.

The Abbey Street access issue is nowhere as difficult as it may first appear.

It should be noted that the Luas already shares the road-space with Heavy Commercial Vehicles servicing the large Marks and Spencer store and also Commercial Vehicles accessing the Jervis Centre underground stores area.

Given that the Coach Departures are nowhere near as frequent as the general Bus service,it follows that some reasonable level of planning should be capable of integrating a small facility with the other aspects of a City's life ?

I never had issue with accessing via Abbey Street itself,save for illegally parked Private Cars,but in this instance a combination of Gt Strand Street and Abbey St could be used depending on the destination and routing of the Coach.

Quite possibly the most contentious element would be convincing Dublin City Council to surrender On Street Car Parking Spaces along Gt Strand Street in order to facilitate Public Transport,the chances of this happening without a fight would be slim indeed.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should be noted that the Luas already shares the road-space with Heavy Commercial Vehicles servicing the large Marks and Spencer store and also Commercial Vehicles accessing the Jervis Centre underground stores area.

Slightly OT but two weeks ago one of these trucks broke down in front of the Luas and there was 4 Luas's lined up behind it as they waited for a tow truck!!

AlekSmart wrote: »

Quite possibly the most contentious element would be convincing Dublin City Council to surrender On Street Car Parking Spaces along Gt Strand Street in order to facilitate Public Transport,the chances of this happening without a fight would be slim indeed.

Err... I've some insight into city car parking matters, more like you will have to claw them off of their cold dead hands!!

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

As stated above, the long dwell times are things which are happening on the city services as well, because of the way Dublin Bus services are operated, with the fare system, lack of two doors, closeness of stops and too many buses serving each stop playing a large part of that.

If you move the Aircoach airport services, it then becomes only fair to move the 16 as well, since I've noticed the 16 has even longer dwell times than the Aircoach services since there tends to be lots more people getting it. I would be in favour though of stopping the Aircoach airport service using the Westmoreland Street and just Suffolk street.

Alternatively the fundamental problem with dwell times could be dealt with and stops (Both DB, Tour and coaches) spread out which would be the best end result in my opinion.

I don't understand your logic relating to Aircoach and the 16s. They are different types of service and operated by different companies. I regularly get other buses from Westmoreland St. and I have never seen anything except massive queues for Dublin Coach and Aircoach in comparison to the 16. If anyone could have a look at that bus stop at 7 this evening for example, they could see this for themselves. I think the 16 can get a huge crowd at the O'Connell St. stop, but Westmoreland Street?

Does anyone here think that the 16 has a longer dwell time than Aircoach has at the Westmoreland Street stop?


The Great Strand Street site would be suitable if some of the car parking spaces were given up. Considering the public transport and safety benefits, this should be done as a matter of course upon the request of operators. It's a sad reflection of the city council that they would oppose it so much.

devnull

To Be Confirmed - you're comparing apples and oranges if you are comparing all Aircoach vehicles since if you read the post that was earlier outlined I was comparing airport bound buses which is what the 16 and the Aircoach Airport routes are. It's like taking into account the dwell times of every Dublin Bus service that stops on the whole of Westmoreland Street.

The 16 picks more passengers up than the Aircoach Airport Route at Westmoreland Street so generally does have around the same if not longer dwell time. The Dublin Coach and Aircoach Cork routes are in a different category altogether siunce they are long distance coach services. I've already said the Dublin Coach service should never have been allowed more.

In any case, as I said, there is no reason for both the 16 and Aircoach airport routes to stop at both Suffolk Street and Westmoreland Street, but that goes for pretty much all the services that stop at both which would ease the congestion easily. In fact there is a lot more the NTA and Dublin Bus could do to sort the problems out with parking.

It also annoys me when people constantly say that Dublin Coach and Aircoach should move but the fact is a lot of the problems in congestion at both of those stops that are also caused by Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus city tour vehicles as well as related to Dublin Bus practices that increase dwell times. It would be nice if someone dealt with the problems rather than the symptoms.

Someone said the land is owned by CIE? Is that the case?

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

To Be Confirmed - you're comparing apples and oranges if you are comparing all Aircoach vehicles since if you read the post that was earlier outlined I was comparing airport bound buses which is what the 16 and the Aircoach Airport routes are. It's like taking into account the dwell times of every Dublin Bus service that stops on the whole of Westmoreland Street.

The 16 picks more passengers up than the Aircoach Airport Route at Westmoreland Street so generally does have around the same if not longer dwell time. The Dublin Coach and Aircoach Cork routes are in a different category altogether.

Someone said the land is owned by CIE? Is that the case?

I'm not, I'm thinking of Airport-bound Aircoach services. I really haven't seen anything more than typically 5 or 6 people wait for a 16 at Westmoreland St. while I've seen far larger crowds wait for the next Aircoach to the airport. Yesterday evening for example. I'm just suprised at the claim as it's quite different to my own regular experiences. Also, do services from Cork to the airport pick up passengers from Westmoreland St for the airport? That would muddy the waters further.

devnull

Services TO Cork depart from Westmoreland Street on the hour.. Aircoach now set down passengers from Cork down the quays at Batchelors walk to ease congestion at Westmoreland Street as previously they operated to there.

I can only speak of my experiences from before 7pm but I normally see more people waiting for a 16 than an Aircoach AIRPORT service there, since most of those passengers are getting poached by taxis which is why Aircoach are cutting back the airport routes from next week.

LXFlyer

I actually think Strand Street would be perfect for developing a bus station - entry via Abbey Street and exit via Strand Street.

It would be a far safer off-street environment for passengers and the numbers of coaches using it would not cause undue disruption to either street.

CIE do own the land.