POLL ADDED: Munster v Leinster, Thomond Pk, 13th April 6.30pm LIVE ON RTE2

totallegend

My preview dwarfed by molloyjh's epic novel...

molloyjh wrote: »

May you live in interesting times

We do live in interesting times folks. Munster are in decline. Or are they!? Ulster are now taking Europe by storm. Or are they!? Leinster are in transition.....well ok there may be some truth to that one. This season, and in particular the last couple of weeks, make for an interesting read. Munster, one of the European greats, have gone through easily their worst season in some time regarding performances and results. Written off and disregarded they produced their best at the weekend and ultimately made Quins look like an incredibly average side. They just refused to let Quins play and are now in a HEC semi-final. It was a fantastic display of Munster rugby and of course one man in particular was leading the charge; Paul O'Connell. Who else.



Ulster on the other hand were one of the best sides in Europe at Christmas. A ridiculous run of good results that beat every other side in the home nations and in France that saw them considered serious contenders, along with Clermont Auvergne, for the HEC title. Yet in the last few weeks it has unravelled for them and now they are out of the HEC after Saracens effectively did to them what Munster did to Quins. Added to that is the fact that their commanding lead in the league has been surrendered to Glasgow. An interesting Whiff of Cordite article even suggests that Ulster may have difficulty winning any silverware now at all, which looked like a ludicrous notion only 3 months ago.


Then there's Leinster. Reigning HEC champions who were coming off the back of 2 titles in a row and looking to make it an historic third on their home patch. Decimated by injuries, their season just never really got going. However a great run of form during the 6 Nations from the younger (and older non-international) players ensured that they are still very much in the race for the league title. And with an Amlin final in the RDS to aim for as well, their season is far from over. Numerous departures at the end of the season though will make it difficult for Leinster to reach the heights of last season for another couple of seasons most likely. So it is important that they deliver this season. And with the news of Sextons departure young Ian Madigan has stepped forward and become the talk of many a rugby conversation over the last few weeks. Let's also hope the rumours of Drico hanging on for another year are also true.

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Coming into this weekend Leinster are in third, 2 points behind Ulster, and Munster are 11 points off the play-off places in sixth. Ulster have a fairly straight forward run-in at this point and will be looking to secure a home semi-final at the very least. For Leinster to manage a home semi-final they would need to ensure they win their 3 remaining games and hope other results go their way. Munster have an outside chance of making the play-offs, but again need a number of other results to go their way. If Munster want to make the play-offs then this game is as important to them as it is to Leinster. The question is; will Munster have one eye on the game in Montpellier in 2 weeks and if so how will it affect them this week.



Both teams have elected for something very close to their first string sides. For Leinster Sexton has been given another week to recover ensuring that Madigan gets to continue to show what he can do. Fergus McFadden has been ruled out with a calf strain meaning Dave Kearney continues in the 14 jersey. The great news for Leinster fans is that Brian O'Driscoll is back at 13. Sean Cronin comes into the front row and Strauss moves to the bench, while in the second row Quinn Roux partners Leo Cullen with Toner dropping to the bench. Shane Jennings comes into the back row with Sean O'Brien moving to blindside.



For Munster Ryan has been ruled out and replaced by Donncha O'Callaghan. Damien Varley and Stephen Archer come into the front-row and Ian Keatley gets the nod ahead of Ronana O'Gara. Keatley is far more of an attacking threat for Munster, although he hasn't played much at out-half of late.



Leinster may have an edge on the bench marginally, but if Munster can bottle Leinster up the way they did Quins it won't be able to add the kind of impact they need for the most part. Strauss and Locky may make a difference, and Goodman possibly with his directness and strength. But Leinster need to make sure this game is a more open affair. They have the better back-line and you would think that with SOB, Jenno and Heaslip in the back row Leinster could manage to free up enough ball to make them count. Ball carriers like Healy, Cronin and SOB in the pack will be crucial.



Munster on the other hand will need Keatley to perform. There's no point in nullifying a side if you're not going to get scores and he'll need to ensure that Munster are either making the line-breaks (where he is certainly better than ROG) or playing in the right areas of the park where he needs to be nailing the penalties. They will most certainly target Leinsters line-out, which hasn't been at its strongest this season, so I'd expect to see a lot of kicking from hand from Keatley.



Leinster need to win and need to produce a better defensive display than last week. They've missed out on the league title enough at this stage. I would assume Penney is keen to keep momentum from their game last week to ensure that Munster can ride the wave of that performance to inspire more like it. I was also interested to read phogs post on the results of the Leinster-Munster derby games in the professional era. Munster have won 17 to Leinsters 16. Not only that but Leinster have won 8 of the last 10 meetings of the sides. I'm sure for all the talk of the league and the HEC that last stat is one that Munster would love to start seeing reversed. Combined with the fact that it's their last home game of the season and is against their biggest rivals this is surely lining up to be, if not a great game, an absorbing contest. Let's just hope the Nige manages the scrum a little better this time around! I'm going with Leinster by 2.

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15: Rob Kearney|15: Felix Jones
14: Dave Kearney|14: Denis Hurley
13: Brian O'Driscoll|13: Casey Laulala
12: Gordon D'Arcy|12: James Downey
11: Isa Nacewa|11: Simon Zebo
10: Ian Madigan|10: Ian Keatley
9: Isaac Boss|9: Conor Murray
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1: Cian Healy|1: Dave Kilcoyne
2: Sean Cronin|2: Damien Varley
3: Mike Ross|3: Stephen Archer
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN|4: Donncha O'Callaghan
5: Quinn Roux|5: Paul O'Connell CAPTAIN
6: Sean O'Brien|6: Peter O'Mahony
7: Shane Jennings|7: Tommy O'Donnell
8: Jamie Heaslip|8: James Coughlan
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16: Richardt Strauss|16: Mike Sherry
17: Jack McGrath|17: James Cronin
18: Michael Bent|18: BJ Botha
19: Devin Toner|19: Billy Holland
20: Kevin McLaughlin|20: Dave O'Callaghan
21: John Cooney|21: Cathal Sheridan
22: Andrew Goodman|22: JJ Hanrahan
23: Andrew Conway|23: Iven Dineen

Mahatma Geansai

Leinster should get the win. Munster have nothing to play for and have bigger fish to fry in 2 weeks time against Clermont. Couple that to only a 6day turn around since their quarter final, and Leinster should be disappointed with anything but a good win.

SebBerkovich

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

Really looking forward to this one... I'm wondering if there'll be a surprise at 10. Maddigan is on great form, he'll be our first choice 10 next season and sexton is hasn't played a game in weeks.

I'd like to see some faith given to maddigan, have him start, bring sexton on after 55 - 60 mins.

pc7

Really looking forward to this, it'll be my first visit to Thomond. Any tips on good bars or things to do in Limerick over the weekend.

.ak

Taken from the Leinster thread.

awec wrote: »

Suspect a Leinster win but don't think it'll be a BP win.

I read an interesting stat somewhere that neither side have scored more than 2 tries in this fixture since 2009? It's a 'who has the more discipline' kinda game.

phog

.ak wrote: »

Taken from the Leinster thread.



I read an interesting stat somewhere that neither side have scored more than 2 tries in this fixture since 2009? It's a 'who has the more discipline' kinda game.

Didn't we score three in the ML final in 2011?

I think you have to go back to 2006 for a BP win.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Didn't we score three in the ML final in 2011?

I think you have to go back to 2006 for a BP win.

This fixture, i.e the regular Thomond park fixture, not the final etc., etc.

totallegend

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

.ak wrote: »

I read an interesting stat somewhere that neither side have scored more than 2 tries in this fixture since 2009? It's a 'who has the more discipline' kinda game.

Yeah, they're normally dour enough affairs. Even the 24-23 win for Munster two years ago sounds like a classic on paper but was actually pretty crap.

Quint2010

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

.ak wrote: »

Taken from the Leinster thread.



I read an interesting stat somewhere that neither side have scored more than 2 tries in this fixture since 2009? It's a 'who has the more discipline' kinda game.

Leinster scored 3 in the last game? Or do they just mean in Thomond?

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

Leinster scored 3 in the last game? Or do they just mean in Thomond?

Yeah the Thomond fixture.

jamiedav2011

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

Expect another dour game, lots of scrum penalties and Leinster to come through hopefully.

Hope Nigel doesn't ref this like he reffed the corresponding fixture last year.

shootermacg

Leinster

With a six day turn-around, nothing to play for, and considering the physical performance they put in against quins it'd be madness to send those lads against a fired up Leinster, why risk injury for nothing?
Those boys looked shattered after the game.

totallegend

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Expect another dour game, lots of scrum penalties and Leinster to come through hopefully.

Hope Nigel doesn't ref this like he reffed the corresponding fixture last year.

Thought Owens did OK, it's hard for a ref to get proper scrums going when you've a loosehead who refuses to take the hit. (Odd decision to bin both Horan and Ross though)

jamiedav2011

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

totallegend wrote: »

Thought Owens did OK, it's hard for a ref to get proper scrums going when you've a loosehead who refuses to take the hit. (Odd decision to bin both Horan and Ross though)

Oh he was barbarous. Shocking reffing of the scrums and lots of nonsensical stuff.

Here's the corresponding thread for reference: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056591232&page=28

Dravokivich

pc7 wrote: »

Really looking forward to this, it'll be my first visit to Thomond. Any tips on good bars or things to do in Limerick over the weekend.

Around the "Milk Market" is meant to be popular. Hung around there after the game last year with my brother.

Clohessy's along the quays was absolutely jammed before the match as well.

vkid

pc7 wrote: »

Really looking forward to this, it'll be my first visit to Thomond. Any tips on good bars or things to do in Limerick over the weekend.

Bars - the ones I'd go to
Nancy Blakes,
Flannerys ( any of them except the one beside Nancy Blakes)
Mickey Martins,
Curraghower(love it - on thomond side of river),
Tom Collins ( love it - old school),
Bourkes
Usually do the Strand Hotel for a pint on way out or back from Thomond.

loads more...

To eat..

Cornstore - book but great food.
Bella italia (hot stone steaks and lots of pasta)
Chocolate ( on o'connell st)
Marco Polo - cheap and cheerful but not too bad at all( across from Chocolate)
Texas steakhouse - does what it says on the tin. (O'Connell St )
Hamptons (Henry Street) is nice enough.
Canteen - for something different ( lunch only - Mallow Street)
Casta Nostra on mount kenneth place (italian - decent)


and a whole hape of Chinese, Indian etc. My pick would be Jasmine Palace on O'Connel Street for Chinese or Poppadom or Cooper and Spice ( Milk Market) for Indian,.



If you;re down early on Saturday, go check the Milk Market out...but market usually really finished in the afternoon.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

Thought Owens did OK, it's hard for a ref to get proper scrums going when you've a loosehead who refuses to take the hit. (Odd decision to bin both Horan and Ross though)

Brian Moore on "not taking the hit"

The word hit is not in the law book but is now freely quoted and accepted by referees who allow front rows to engage with as much force as possible and immediately thereafter drive forward as quickly as possible. Not only do they condone this dangerous practice, they have actually invented a new penalty offence, one not in the law book, of ‘not taking the hit’, which actually means penalising one pack for not pushing with enough illegally-early force to counterbalance the other pack’s illegal shove.

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Oh he was barbarous. Shocking reffing of the scrums and lots of nonsensical stuff.


Here's the corresponding thread for reference: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056591232&page=28

I wouldn't be viewing too many threads on boards.ie to inform me on how good/ba a ref was. Have a look at the Quin/Munster thread about what some thought they knew about the scrums, Frankie got a doing for his comments, yet he was vidicated later.

Makes one wonder what some posters actually know about what they post on.

pajunior

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

vkid wrote: »

Bars - the ones I'd go to
Nancy Blakes,
Flannerys ( any of them except the one beside Nancy Blakes)
Mickey Martins,
Curraghower(love it - on thomond side of river),
Tom Collins ( love it - old school),
Bourkes
Usually do the Strand Hotel for a pint on way out or back from Thomond.

loads more...

To eat..

Cornstore - book but great food.
Bella italia (hot stone steaks and lots of pasta)
Chocolate ( on o'connell st)
Marco Polo - cheap and cheerful but not too bad at all( across from Chocolate)
Texas steakhouse - does what it says on the tin. (O'Connell St )
Hamptons (Henry Street) is nice enough.
Canteen - for something different ( lunch only - Mallow Street)
Casta Nostra on mount kenneth place (italian - decent)


and a whole hape of Chinese, Indian etc. My pick would be Jasmine Palace on O'Connel Street for Chinese or Poppadom or Cooper and Spice ( Milk Market) for Indian,.



If you;re down early on Saturday, go check the Milk Market out...but market usually really finished in the afternoon.

How can you fail to mention the culinary marvels that are kebabish and chicken hut!!!

Teferi

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

All you seem to post about anymore Phog is how bad posters are on this forum or how you believe players from certain teams are badly treated or other teams get leeway etc.

Maybe if you're taking the internet so seriously its time for a break from it mate?

Just something to think about.

awec

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

The bar at Thomond itself is decent.

totallegend

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

phog wrote: »

I wouldn't be viewing too many threads on boards.ie to inform me on how good/ba a ref was. Have a look at the Quin/Munster thread about what some thought they knew about the scrums, Frankie got a doing for his comments, yet he was vidicated later.

Makes one wonder what some posters actually know about what they post on.

Is that last bit necessary? It's a discussion forum.

I'll rephrase "Horan wouldn't take the hit" to "Horan deliberately crumpled like an accordion every time the scrum engaged because he knew he was incapable of competing legitimately and his best hope was to try to muddy the waters in the eyes of the referee and to maybe come out level on the penalty count". That better?

You're correct that they're not supposed to hit but nor are they allowed to dive to the ground at every scrum. Clear as day he was out of his depth.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Makes one wonder what some posters actually know about what they post on.

Teferi wrote: »

All you seem to post about anymore Phog is how bad posters are on this forum or how you believe players from certain teams are badly treated or other teams get leeway etc.

Maybe if you're taking the internet so seriously its time for a break from it mate?

Just something to think about.

Can we stick to the game at hand people? Thanks.

Buer

phog wrote: »

I wouldn't be viewing too many threads on boards.ie to inform me on how good/ba a ref was. Have a look at the Quin/Munster thread about what some thought they knew about the scrums, Frankie got a doing for his comments, yet he was vidicated later.

There are posters online who have much more of a clue of what's going on in a scrum than some international referees none of whom have packed down in the front row.

FS was fairly spot on at the weekend in his assertions but there have been times in the past when, in my opinion, he has been talking absolute balderdash regarding the scrums and not even trying to be subtle. I've seen him calling for penalties in the past for things that aren't even in the law book just as Brian Moore seems to indicate above. Ì wouldn't be listening to him too much to indicate a referees performance either.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

There are posters online who have much more of a clue of what's going on in a scrum than some international referees none of whom have packed down in the front row.

FS was fairly spot on at the weekend in his assertions but there have been times in the past when, in my opinion, he has been talking absolute balderdash regarding the scrums and not even trying to be subtle. I've seen him calling for penalties in the past for things that aren't even in the law book just as Brian Moore seems to indicate above. Ì wouldn't be listening to him too much to indicate a referees performance either.

His assertion on one occasion that it wasn't Botha who popped up first when in fact it was clear as day it was Botha who popped up first?? I'm not one to have a go at him but I couldn't believe he was being paid for that level of analysis

awec

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

To be fair, most pundits are paid to state the obvious.

The problem with Frankie is that he gets it wrong even when it's obvious. :pac:

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

His assertion on one occasion that it wasn't Botha who popped up first when in fact it was clear as day it was Botha who popped up first?? I'm not one to have a go at him but I couldn't believe he was being paid for that level of analysis

Could well have been, I didn't hear every bit of analysis of his. Given his track record for some stuff, I'd well believe he made a mess of some stuff. What I heard was fairly even handed though and a decent appraisal.

ConFurioso

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

I think he just needs to not do commentary on matches with his clients in them.

Aidric

pc7 wrote: »

Really looking forward to this, it'll be my first visit to Thomond. Any tips on good bars or things to do in Limerick over the weekend.

Thomond park virgin :-) Enjoy the trip. Limerick on matchday is a special place. The Curragower was mentioned earlier and I'd definitely second that. Great pint of Guinness and good seafood if you fancy a bite before the game. The ground is only a 10/15 min walk from there also.
The strand hotel is also a good shout, same walking distance to the ground and has a big balcony overlooking the shannon.

Larbre34

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

Aidric wrote: »

Thomond park virgin :-) Enjoy the trip. Limerick on matchday is a special place. The Curragower was mentioned earlier and I'd definitely second that. Great pint of Guinness and good seafood if you fancy a bite before the game. The ground is only a 10/15 min walk from there also.
The strand hotel is also a good shout, same walking distance to the ground and has a big balcony overlooking the shannon.

Thirdsies, love it. See you there.

molloyjh

Draw/I'm too much of a pansy to call it

Tox56 wrote: »

His assertion on one occasion that it wasn't Botha who popped up first when in fact it was clear as day it was Botha who popped up first?? I'm not one to have a go at him but I couldn't believe he was being paid for that level of analysis

Frankies approach to the scrum last week was that if Munster were at fault it either should have been a Munster penalty or a reset. Not only was Botha obviously up in that scrum but Kilcoyne was pulling down Johnston on a regular basis. Then apparently Archer did well in the scrum when the only scrum I can recall with him in it led to him being face first in the dirt. Quinny was far more balanced in his analysis of the scrum and correctly identified Botha popping up after Frankie blatantly ignored it.

Anyway, I sadly will not see this game due to a friends wedding. It's the first of these derbies I'll have missed since, well probably since I got into provincial rugby. I would be surprised though if Penney put out a weakened team. Surely he'll want to build some momentum from last week, especially against Munsters biggest rival in their last home game of the season? Not to mention that this game will be a better one to get the Munster boys anywhere near the pace they'll need to be at in 2 weeks, or the need to banish the Glasgow demons.

Risteard

molloyjh wrote: »

Frankies approach to the scrum last week was that if Munster were at fault it either should have been a Munster penalty or a reset.

Except of course for the times when Quins were penalised and he said he felt Quins were unlucky.