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Capital punishment in Saudi
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So one has to visit a Muslims country to know Islam? Does one have to be female to talk about women's issues? Does one have to have lived in China to talk about Chinese issues. I haven't discussed with a scholar no but I have met converts from Islam who fled their countries Sudan and Pakistan because they faced death. One was imprisoned and beaten up by the police. The other suffered official harassment to the point where she dropped out of college and fled.
No, but one can speak with more authority on the subject having being both immersed in Islamic culture and having spoken to more than two Muslims.
And I am sure we can find many non-Muslim refugees who have fled their country due to persecution.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »Indeed, not from the Koran, which leads on to my next point...And the converse is also true - if so-called Sharia is implemented incorrectly, then those actions cannot be taken as Islamic law. Yes, there may be a large support for the death penalty for apostasy in the Islamic world, but the majority of people will believe what's fed to them by those in charge (we're no different in the West).
I've already written a bit on the topic of apostasy and Hadiths here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83400098
Yet according to the Pew research I posted it seems to be a generally held belief amongst practitioners of Islam that the death penalty for apostasy is correct and according to the Sharia. You may well disagree but majorities in some very large Muslim countries dont.No, but one can speak with more authority on the subject having being both immersed in Islamic culture and having spoken to more than two Muslims.
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I wouldn't be so sure. Try talking to someone from the Shankill and someone from the Falls about the last 30 years of NI and see how much authority they have. Also care to comment on the Pew research. I don't need to live in an Islamic culture to read research.0 -
I wouldn't be so sure. Try talking to someone from the Shankill and someone from the Falls about the last 30 years of NI and see how much authority they have.
So somebody experiencing something first hand is less able to speak about a situation than a journalist who drops in for a story? Or a researcher who observes as an outsider?Also care to comment on the Pew research. I don't need to live in an Islamic culture to read research.
All that research shows is the majorities who would like to see these things enacted, not where they are enacted. Significant difference.
List off a few more countries other than Saudi that behead people for certain crimes or do not allow women to drive and I will accept that Saudi is not unique.0 -
You may well disagree but majorities in some very large Muslim countries dont.
Your original statement was that the Sharia is clear about capital punishment for apostasy. If 100+ notable Islamic figures/scholars affirm that people are free to choose their faith, without having to face capital punishment (from the thread link above, http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.ie/), then you surely can't say that the Sharia is clear about it. If it was a verse from the Koran, then it undoubtedly would be clear, but the practice is based on a weak Hadith, and is therefore anything but clear - no matter what the majorities think.0 -
All that research shows is the majorities who would like to see these things enacted, not where they are enacted. Significant difference.
They desire such laws to be enacted. Why so? What is guiding them? Sharia? You would disingenuous to say otherwise.List off a few more countries other than Saudi that behead people for certain crimes or do not allow women to drive and I will accept that Saudi is not unique.
On women drivers you'd be right but this thread is about capital punishment. Afghanistan has it as Abdul Rahman can testify. Also on the books in Iran.confusedquark wrote: »Your original statement was that the Sharia is clear about capital punishment for apostasy. If 100+ notable Islamic figures/scholars affirm that people are free to choose their faith, without having to face capital punishment (from the thread link above, http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.ie/), then you surely can't say that the Sharia is clear about it. If it was a verse from the Koran, then it undoubtedly would be clear, but the practice is based on a weak Hadith, and is therefore anything but clear - no matter what the majorities think.
Koran 4:89 is used in Sharia courts as giving weight to the death penalty. There is dispute but it is cited. Bukhari is not a weak Hadith and either you are obfuscating or don't know what you are on about. His Hadith is probably the most authoritative.Your link unfortunately undermines your argument. From the link......Undeniably, the traditional position of Muslim scholars and jurists has been that apostasy [riddah] is punishable by death.
and...................Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi (commonly known as Maulana Maududi), the late founder and leader of Jamaat-e-Islami and a leading independent, revivalist Islamic personality of 20th century, is frequently referred to for his ardent argument for capital punishment for apostasy. He argued that there is a broad agreement of the leading jurists on this issue. He claims:
"To copy the consecutive writings of all the lawyers from the first to the fourteenth century A.H. would make our discussion very long. Yet we cannot avoid mentioning that however much the four Schools of Law may differ among themselves regarding the various aspects of this problem, in any case all four Schools without doubt agree on the point that the punishment of the apostate is execution."
Now there may well be many Muslims who disagree and many scholars who want to revisit this but the fact is in Sharia the punishment for apostasy is death. The Saudis are only carrying out what they see as Islamic Law. Kudos to those scholars for arguing against the death penalty and I hope they succeed.0 -
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They desire such laws to be enacted. Why so? What is guiding them? Sharia? You would disingenuous to say otherwise.
But desire is very different from action. I desire free beer and a 3 day working week, neither of which I am ever likely to encounter.
Being disingenuous is resorting to stereotypes and misinformation on Muslims and Islamic society, without being aware of the real truth.On women drivers you'd be right but this thread is about capital punishment. Afghanistan has it as Abdul Rahman can testify. Also on the books in Iran.
That is a number of very vague statements. So, I again ask you to prove that Saudi is not unique in its interpretation of Islam by giving me examples of other countries who have beheaded people for crimes.
I take by your inability to demonstrate that there are no other countries who carry out such acts, that my assertion that Saudi is unique and not representative of Islam carries some weight.0 -
But desire is very different from action. I desire free beer and a 3 day working week, neither of which I am ever likely to encounter.
Wanting something for yourself is different from forcing every to do what you want. You are being disingeuous in not wanting to see that the large numbers of Muslims who want the death penalty for apostasy are doing so because they believe it is part of the Sharia for it to be so.That is a number of very vague statements. So, I again ask you to prove that Saudi is not unique in its interpretation of Islam by giving me examples of other countries who have beheaded people for crimes.
The Taliban chopped heads.Iran hangs them instead but death is the end result.0 -
Wanting something for yourself is different from forcing every to do what you want. You are being disingeuous in not wanting to see that the large numbers of Muslims who want the death penalty for apostasy are doing so because they believe it is part of the Sharia for it to be so.
But that's the whole point, isn't it? Nobody is forcing anyone to impose these laws, that survey provides evidence of people's preferences, not the fact that Sharia law is enacted.The Taliban chopped heads.
Are you seriously asking me to accept that a bunch of medieval thugs who imposed their will on a broken nation are representative of Islam?Iran hangs them instead but death is the end result.
From what I gather, China, the US and other countries also impose similar penalties, with similar end results. No other country, that I am aware of, beheads people.
Your inability to give examples that prove that Saudi Arabia is not an anomaly only further confirms that my assertion is correct.0 -
what do u mean by witchcraft? haha! witchcraft doesnt exist. and NO nobody should be killed. nobody has the right to kill another person on any grounds. god created us all. if we do wrong, leave it in the hands of god not anyone else. people can live their lives how they wish.0
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For apostasy? For homosexuality? Sorry mate you are in whataboutery territory here big time.
No, I never said that. What I did ask was for you to provide me with evidence of other countries that behead peoples as Saudi does. You went off on a tangent about the death penalty and I attempted to reign you back in by pointing out that other countries also impose the death penalty.
Nowhere did I mention apostasy or homosexuality.
We get it- you have issues with Islam, nothing new there. However, I cant help but feel your issues are borne out of ignorance, misinformation and what you see on the likes of Sky news. Classifying 1 billion+ people in the same category just because you spoke to two people who fled persecution and because of your views on that anomaly that is Saudi Arabia, demonstrates a spectacular inability to understand the context in which the issues you raise sit.0 -
No, I never said that. What I did ask was for you to provide me with evidence of other countries that behead peoples as Saudi does. You went off on a tangent about the death penalty and I attempted to reign you back in by pointing out that other countries also impose the death penalty.
I don't know whether this is deliberate or an error but I wasn't suggesting the method of killing was unique I was suggesting that the Sauids are not unique in the reasons why they execute people and I merely pinted out many Muslims in many other countries are in agreement with Saudis on the matter of why they execute people.We get it- you have issues with Islam, nothing new there.Classifying 1 billion+ people in the same category just because you spoke to two people who fled persecution and because of your views on that anomaly that is Saudi Arabia, demonstrates a spectacular inability to understand the context in which the issues you raise sit.
Seriously for a mod that is poor stuff. I never ever said all Muslims were the same and I think I pointed that out. I find it fascinating though that whenever Saudi is mentioned there is a rush to suggest that the Saudis, the keepers of the two holy places and the epicenter of Islam, have somehow misinterpreted Islam despite reams of evidence of many of Islamic religious figures and groups the world over being in agreement with them.
Have I issues with Islam. Yep as I do with Judaism, certain Christian groups, Mormons, Scientology and other religions. As an atheist I do try and learn what it is that makes people take positions and hold beliefs I regard as extreme which is what attracted me to this thread.0 -
I was enjoying the thread till I got to post #39. Tom, you put great weight to your argument that Saudi Arabia is an anomaly when it comes to Islam (despite it pouring literally billions into exporting its version of Islam throughout the Globe; so that you can call it an anomaly and expect all this money to have zero influence is a bit naive). When you repeatedly asked who else beheads people and were told the Taliban did, your response was to brand them as medieval. Believe me, there are a lot of people on the board who think beheading people, stoning people, amputating limbs etc to be medieval. The Taliban do not have a monopoly on medieval (you can argue hanging, death by lethal injection, electrocution and all that are no less so, and you would be correct). Like it or not, Saudi Arabia is the center of the Muslim world, no matter how it (Islam) appears in different guises. To say it is not (i forget the exact terminology here), representative and an anomaly is similar to saying the Vatican is the anomaly in roman Catholicism. I know we could split hairs over that one, but I think good arguments have been made and an acknowledgement of such is appropriate. I don't have to agree with everyone on the board to recognize they are making some valid points and deserve credit where it is due.0
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Firstly, apologies about the late response - have had a hectic few days.Koran 4:89 is used in Sharia courts as giving weight to the death penalty. There is dispute but it is cited.
But surely if the Sharia is clear (as per your original statement), there wouldn't be any room for disputes... Koran 4:89 is a verse from a passage referring to traitors during times of war, something which is more evident by reading the verses before and after it, and understanding the context behind the verses being revealed. I've never been at a Sharia court hearing, but if that's being applied to cases of apostasy, then I'd have to question the authenticity of these courts (which has been my point all along).Bukhari is not a weak Hadith and either you are obfuscating or don't know what you are on about. His Hadith is probably the most authoritative.
Either I'm obfuscating, or I don't know what I'm on about, OR maybe you don't quite understand the full story with Hadiths.
Bukhari is considered to be the MOST authentic hadith collection but not the ENTIRELY authentic hadith collection. Bukhari analysed the chain of narration of each hadith he came across, and then made a decision as to whether HE thought it sounded genuine or not, and he discarded many along the way. Sure he might have been good at what he did, but he was human, and fallible, and despite his best efforts, there are bound to be many many mistakes in his work. Even Bukhari's hadiths can be sub-divided into strong and weak, depending on the chain of narration and how well they fit with all else that's known. The particular hadith you cited earlier is consider a weak one (despite it being Bukhari), because it was only (allegedly) relayed from The Prophet (peace be upon him) to just one individual, and wasn't confirmed by a second person. These were stories passed down from generation to generation for 200 YEARS - one has to take them with a pinch of salt (nevermind using them solely as a basis for capital punishment).Your link unfortunately undermines your argument.
Not in the slightest. I haven't denied what the majority opinion is on the matter. The link strengthens my argument that the punishment for apostasy in Islam in not clear, if so many scholars are vocal against it.Now there may well be many Muslims who disagree and many scholars who want to revisit this but the fact is in Sharia the punishment for apostasy is death. The Saudis are only carrying out what they see as Islamic Law. Kudos to those scholars for arguing against the death penalty and I hope they succeed.
We'll probably continue to go around in circles with this, but my bottom line is - whilst I agree that the current majority opinion is capital punishment for apostasy, I'll maintain that there's a sufficient vocal minority out there to say that the punishment isn't a clear straight-forward affair. Sharia is based on interpretation of texts - interpretations can be wrong and change over time, but the texts won't change, so I'd encourage people to examine the texts with an open mind, read the arguments for and against, and make up their own minds on the issue.0 -
I really don't think wikipedia is a reliable source for any kind of debate.
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I say it was just as reliable, maybe even more so, than the opinions of people in this thread.
The wiki muslim entries would be kept accurate by a large muslim community that want the truth to be expressed.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »
We'll probably continue to go around in circles with this, but my bottom line is - whilst I agree that the current majority opinion is capital punishment for apostasy, .
Thank you that is my point.0 -
No, that actually wasn't your point.For example if you are Muslim and want to change you are religion the Koran is clear you must die.
was your original point,From the Hadith not the Koran sorry. "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him"
was your next point, andBukhari is not a weak Hadith and either you are obfuscating or don't know what you are on about.
was your point after that.
"Current majority opinion" is very different to something being "clear" in Islamic texts. Drinking alcohol, eating pork, etc are things which are clearly written in the Koran and there's no need for interpretations. Things which aren't explicitly written in the Koran, and things which only have weak Hadiths in their support, and things which many different scholars have differing opinions on, are things which invariably are not clear.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »
"Current majority opinion" is very different to something being "clear" in Islamic texts. .
*sound of shifting goalposts*0 -
confusedquark wrote: »"Current majority opinion" is very different to something being "clear" in Islamic texts. Drinking alcohol, eating pork, etc are things which are clearly written in the Koran and there's no need for interpretations. Things which aren't explicitly written in the Koran, and things which only have weak Hadiths in their support, and things which many different scholars have differing opinions on, are things which invariably are not clear.
But if the majority opinion agrees with one interpretation, doesn't that make that interpretation the default (for lack of a better word)?
The majority agrees with that opinion presumably because the majority of religious teachers teach that opinion, so while you are right that that opinion is not supported by the main document in Islam, it is supported by the majority of the teaching in Islam. Why do you think this is? And given that the majority opinion is clearly wrong (and quite damaging, not just to the image of Islam but also to people at the receiving end of that opinion), why is more not done to combat it?0 -
*sound of shifting goalposts*
Lol, you serious? I've done nothing but stick to my main point throughout, and have explained it thoroughly. I thought I made it obvious in my last post, but let me show you what shifting goalposts actually looks like:For example if you are Muslim and want to change you are religion the Koran is clear you must die.From the Hadith not the Koran sorry. "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him"Bukhari is not a weak Hadith and either you are obfuscating or don't know what you are on about.Thank you that is my point. ("the current majority opinion is capital punishment")0 -
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Mark Hamill wrote: »But if the majority opinion agrees with one interpretation, doesn't that make that interpretation the default (for lack of a better word)?
It does make it the default, but it doesn't necessarily make it the correct interpretation, as you mention yourself.Mark Hamill wrote: »It is supported by the majority of the teaching in Islam. Why do you think this is?
The relevant Koranic verses and Hadiths go back to the early days of Islam, when early Muslims were under attack from neighbouring tribes. Back in those times, apostasy was often associated with treason - people changing their allegiances and turning on their community, and capital punishment is applicable in those cases. The problem lies in differentiating simple apostasy from apostasy associated with treason.
The longstanding problem of the traditional position, as held by Classical jurists or scholars, can be explained and excused as not being able to see apostasy, an issue of pure freedom of faith and conscience, separate from treason against the community or the state. This distinction was not made by early scholars, and once it became the status quo, there has been resistance to even consider an alternative - with some modern day scholars dismissing such suggestions as "The West telling us what to do", but that's no excuse to not even look at the issue.Mark Hamill wrote: »And given that the majority opinion is clearly wrong (and quite damaging, not just to the image of Islam but also to people at the receiving end of that opinion), why is more not done to combat it?
People are vocal about it, but the status quo, once it's been in place for centuries, is not easy to change, especially with those at the top being as stubborn. Hopefully in time as more and more scholars speak up about it, things will change.0 -
How big of an issue do you think this is for Islam in general?
Its very easy for the claims that Islam is a religion of peace and freedom to be shot down when its pointed out that the majority of Muslims, and therefore most of teaching, doesn't actually afford peaceful freedom to its own people. It seems to me that this is an especially damaging situation for both Islam and its followers.0 -
Of course it's a major issue. If people are being threatened with capital punishment over something which they should be left well alone, then that's not good for anyone. You can't force beliefs on people. The Koran says repeatedly that Allah guides whom He wills and sends astray whom He wills, without any mention of punishments except for in the afterlife.
http://quran.com/search?q=Allah%20guides%20whom%20He%20wills0
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