Consultant 'refused abortion plea'

Seachmall

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But, I fail to see where accusing the man of money grabbing is a pro-life thing.

Finding an unrelated avenue to speculate and attack in an attempt to undermine the wider issue is a common theme in these type of threads. In this particular case it is an observation less likely to be made by someone who supports the publicity of the case (which would be pro-choicers).

So it's not a pro-life thing nor a pro-life tactic but in this particular instance and this particular thread it is a fallacy more likely to be utilised by a pro-life advocate.

If it were another thread it could just as likely be a pro-choice advocate making such idiotic observations.

Stupid people are stupid regardless of where on the fence they sit.

Madam_X

I'm always wary also of "taking a side" before considering the other side, especially a case as sensitive as this, and the ramifications it has. I don't deem the hospital staff a bunch of monsters (they were in a dreadful position, which will haunt them for life probably) and I'd be cautious of taking it as gospel (pun not intended) that the words "This is a catholic country" were uttered in a harsh, insensitive way.
I've no doubt also that some pro choice lobbyists have been using the case to further their agenda, and possibly presented it in a biased way.

But seriously: accusing a monumentally grieving man of "cashing in", "embracing the media coverage" because he wants a thorough investigation and answers as would anyone suffering the pain that he is suffering... Casting suspicion on his motives and how he has conducted himself despite the torment he's enduring? Being convinced the thing about the catholic country was never said at all (why?). Saying the case is "hyped up". It's disgusting - in and of itself, leave aside any of the other angles.

In cases like this though, it always becomes "the in thing" to be as insensitive and cold as one can possibly be from a few wannabe Richard ****ing Littlejohns. How "no nonsense".

wolfpawnat

Madam_X wrote: »

I'm always wary also of "taking a side" before considering the other side, especially a case as sensitive as this, and the ramifications it has. I don't deem the hospital staff a bunch of monsters (they were in a dreadful position, which will haunt them for life probably) and I'd be cautious of taking it as gospel (pun not intended) that the words "This is a catholic country" were uttered in a harsh, insensitive way.
I've no doubt also that some pro choice lobbyists have been using the case to further their agenda, and possibly presented it in a biased way.

But seriously: accusing a monumentally grieving man of "cashing in", "embracing the media coverage" because he wants a thorough investigation and answers as would anyone suffering the pain that he is suffering... Casting suspicion on his motives and how he has conducted himself despite the torment he's enduring? It's disgusting - in and of itself, leave aside any of the other angles.

No sum of money will bring Savita back. It is a ridiculous accusation to make. "I lost my wife, but F it, I'll make myself a few quid." Somehow I doubt the money makes a difference when you went from a beautiful wife and baby on the way, to losing said baby at a time where at the very least you were discussing names if not after purchasing a few items, to losing them both. Money does not make that better. No sum they give him will ever make that better!

TBH the more that I read, the more I think the hospital in general needs a good inspection, Neyite told us earlier of her horrific story and it is clear that on at least 2 occasions the hospital failed its patients! Doctors and nurses are human, they will fúck up. That is why there has to be inquiries and investigations. The "Catholic Country" comment, true or not, is what was pushed by the media, no, it would not make a medical report and has been taken with a pinch of salt, but regardless, the use of it internationally in the media has made it more sensationalist. I often feel the more this goes on the less it is becoming about Savita and Praveen.

There are indeed Pro-choicers using this as though it is the holy grail of their argument, even without all the facts, but at the same time there are pro-lifers with the disgustingly infantile attitude "Well it wouldn't have helped, so there" As I say, extremists regardless of the topic, make for great sensationalism, but terrible debaters!

opinion guy

Where is this cashing in crap coming from?
This is an inquest - there is no cash

wolfpawnat

opinion guy wrote: »

Where is this cashing in crap coming from?
This is an inquest - there is no cash

If the hospital is seen to be negligent, he can decide to sue. But as I said, I doubt the money would matter. It doesn't bring her back. He has never showed any inclination to even be remotely interested in financial compensation.

Madam_X

Nothing wrong with him getting compo either IMO. It can go towards flights for him and his family, legal fees, bereavement counselling; expenses that wouldn't exist only for the tragedy... a reduction of financial pressure - one less worry.

Always has to be cynics who pretend it'll be spent on Caribbean cruises and shopping sprees.

wolfpawnat

Madam_X wrote: »

Nothing wrong with him getting compo either IMO. It can go towards flights for him and his family, legal fees, bereavement counselling; expenses that wouldn't exist only for the tragedy... a reduction of financial pressure - one less worry.

Always has to be cynics who pretend it'll be spent on Caribbean cruises and shopping sprees.

Well that's it, he has a legal team to pay for this inquiry. They will need to be paid regardless of his grief. I feel if the hospital is at fault, and I have very little doubt it does. It seems to be admitting itself there was no communication between the lab, nurses and doctors and that test results were not looked over due to "staff errors" then legally regardless of whether he is in Ireland, India or on the fricken moon, he is entitled to compensation. India to Ireland is not an Aer Lingus special, yes they are educated and more than likely wealthy, but they should not have to be out of pocket for negligence not of their own doing.

I am fascinated by the "compo culture" People hear compensation and think "Oh well they're on the pigs back now" it baffles me. A neighbour got it for a horrific accident, his left arm is now useless. Can never work again, and people think he is going to have a great time. Same with Praveen, they think as you said, he'll be off to Vegas for the time of his life!

Kenny Gofuk

I the original OP wish to thank all for your views.

Simple fact is (in a perfect world) regardless of religious issues, each of us has the right to be healthy, happy and safe.
I'm a husband and a dad - I would hope to be fortunate enough never to experience such loss.

I have witnessed loss in our family as my nephew was killed aged 25 years and I watched the light go out in the eyes of his mum and dad.
They had good lives, but all the good was taken from it by grief.

I only hope Mr. Halappanavar finds peace someday out of all of this, and that all he seeks is justice.

rainbowdash

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, because an Irish person would be afraid to admit they asked for a termination because of the social climate in Ireland. They would have to pretend that they were OK with their wife dying for no good reason or face ostracism.

Nothing to do with an Irish person being afraid to admit they asked for a termination, I am referring to people from a lower class area of the country as opposed to a middle or upper class family. If it happened to a skanger then it would not have become a trendy tragedy and CNN wouldn't be bothered with it.

Steve O

Gatling wrote: »

I watched his act on telly months ago ,
One thing stood out for me "I'm not Irish so Irish laws don't apply to me"
The whole situation has been over hyped

I think he was talking about the canon laws that still pollute our legal system. The very reason a young woman died was because "it is a catholic country".

I cannot believe people are basically saying that this man has no right to be angry and it's "overhyped", why shouldn't he overhype it, I would be livid.

mikom

Gatling wrote: »

I watched his act on telly months ago ,
One thing stood out for me "I'm not Irish so Irish laws don't apply to me"
The whole situation has been over hyped

Yep, the death of his wife has been over-hyped......................

wolfpawnat

mikom wrote: »

Yep, the death of his wife has been over-hyped......................

The media over-hyped it without all the facts. The man himself, and indeed their families did not over-hype it. They have every right push the issue to get answers!

seenitall

mikom wrote: »

Yep, the death of his wife has been over-hyped......................

And he's got "an act".

Fuseman

Are you not reading the latest headlines??? The word Catholic was never mentioned.

Basically I think that there was an agenda to raise the awareness of this case by using the "Catholic" comment. People then jumped on the anti church band wagon and here we are 6 months on !!

Now that it has come to light that this comment was never mentioned, I would take a lot of what Praveen said with a pinch of salt.

A person died as a result of bad case management in the hospital...PERIOD !

Morag

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/321993914246635522

Nurse midwife manager tells inquest she is sorry for telling #Savita termination not possible 'this is a Catholic country'.

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/321994566964224000

Midwife Ann Maria Burke says 'Catholic' comment was not meant as hurtful. It followed Savita saying she was from India & a Hindu

Uriel.

Steve O wrote: »

I think he was talking about the canon laws that still pollute our legal system. The very reason a young woman died was because "it is a catholic country".

Really?

So you're the coroner now are you? So she didn't die as a result of negligence at the hospital? or due to an unfortunate set of events?

Best get the Garda serious Crime Unit to arrest the Primate of Ireland or whoever is the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

And by the way, you don't have to be Catholic to have a view on abortion that is anything other than full access to same.

mikom

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The media over-hyped it without all the facts. The man himself, and indeed their families did not over-hype it. They have every right push the issue to get answers!

I agree.

Fuseman wrote: »

Are you not reading the latest headlines??? The word Catholic was never mentioned.

I think you'll find it was.

Fuseman

mikom wrote: »

I agree.



I think you'll find it was.

Where????

mikom

Fuseman wrote: »

Where????

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/321993914246635522

and....

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/321994566964224000

and........

A midwife manager at Galway University Hospital has identified herself as the person who told Savita Halappanavar that she couldn’t get a termination “because Ireland is a Catholic country”.

Ms Halappanavar died in Galway University Hospital of septicaemia due to E.Coli on October 28th, 2012, a week after being admitted.

At the inquest into Ms Halappanavar’s death in Galway today, Ann Maria Burke said that she now regrets the remark but explained that it wasn’t meant to be hurtful.
“It was not said in the context to offend her. I’m sorry how it came across. It does sound very bad now but at the time I didn’t mean it that way,” she said.

“It was the law of the land and there was two referendums where the Catholic church was pressing the buttons.” She said it was more to give information and to throw light on Irish culture.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/midwife-manager-regrets-using-catholic-country-remark-to-savita-halappanavar-1.1355895

Morag

Standard miscarriage management in all other western countries includes the option for an abortion/termination of pregnancy once it comes to light that the miscarriage is unavoidable. This is done to safe guard the helath of the woman.

This should have been an option in Savita's case rather then of having to wait until her life was at risk.

wolfpawnat

Morag wrote: »

Standard miscarriage management in all other western countries includes the option for an abortion/termination of pregnancy once it comes to light that the miscarriage is unavoidable. This is done to safe guard the helath of the woman.

This should have been an option in Savita's case rather then of having to wait until her life was at risk.

In the case of septicemia it is the most recommended method by the WHO's evidence based medicine not to do so if possible for up to 72 hours after a strong course of anti-biotics which tend to end the foetal heartbeat due to their strength, and then remove the foetus once she is safe, but they never seemed to even realise she had it until it was too late! Hence why the X case legislation being sorted will FINALLY put this in stone. Not that it helps poor Savita.

Loafing Oaf

Morag wrote: »

Standard miscarriage management in all other western countries includes the option for an abortion/termination of pregnancy once it comes to light that the miscarriage is unavoidable. This is done to safe guard the helath of the woman.

This should have been an option in Savita's case rather then of having to wait until her life was at risk.

I wonder is the 'problem' here partly due Dr Astbury being (AFAIK) an English woman and imbued with a respect for the law? Would an Irish obstetrician in her place have said "Foetal heartbeat? I can't hear anything" and gone ahead and terminated the pregnancy at an early stage...

Morag

wolfpawnat wrote: »

In the case of septicemia it is the most recommended method by the WHO's evidence based medicine not to do so if possible for up to 72 hours after a strong course of anti-biotics which tend to end the foetal heartbeat due to their strength, and then remove the foetus once she is safe, but they never seemed to even realise she had it until it was too late! Hence why the X case legislation being sorted will FINALLY put this in stone. Not that it helps poor Savita.

It should have been done before the sepsis set in.

Morag

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I wonder is the 'problem' her partly die Dr Astbury being (AFAIK) an English woman and imbued with a respect for the law? Would an Irish obstetrician in her place have said "Foetal heartbeat? I can't hear anything" and gone ahead and terminated the pregnancy at an early stage...

No the guildelines and procedures are very strict they reflect the 8th amendment which places the life of the 'unborn' as being equal to that of the woman carrying it.

wolfpawnat

Morag wrote: »

It should have been done before the sepsis set in.

Agreed. If a foetus is not viable, why make ANYONE suffer. Be it physically or emotionally, foetus or parent.

Has it become clear did she present to the hospital with sepsis or was it as a result of her prolonged miscarriage?

Loafing Oaf

Morag wrote: »

No the guild lines and procedures are very strict they reflect the 8th amendment which places the life of the 'unborn' as being equal to that of the woman carrying it.

I know that, but I am wondering do other obstetricians obey the law as punctiliously as Dr Astbury...

Morag

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I know that, but I am wondering do other obstetricians obey the law as punctiliously as Dr Astbury...

They have to.


If they don't they will lose their job, medical practitioners insurance, lience to practice, can be sued by their employer and then face criminal sanction under the 1861 offenses against the person act and may be sentenced to 7 years in prison.
This is what is meant by the "Chilling Effect" caused by the current legal prohibition on abortion to safe guard a woman's health.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Has it become clear did she present to the hospital with sepsis or was it as a result of her prolonged miscarriage?

A clearer picture is emerging, as facts pile up, but there's still a bit of work to be done in collating it all. However, these extracts might be of help.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/savita-halappanavar-s-consultant-acknowledges-hospital-systems-failures-1.1355804
Dr Astbury said she was not aware of the results of blood tests conducted four days after Ms Halappanavar was admitted, where her condition was deteriorating. If she had been aware of the result, she would have seen her soon. At the time, she didn’t have the blood result and was working only on clinical signs. There was no evidence to suggest she had severe sepsis.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/savita-eventually-told-termination-was-only-option-consultant-obstetrician-says-1.1355316
“On the way out of ICU, I spoke to Mr Halappanavar and explained that his wife was critically ill. We discussed that her initial and subsequent blood cultures had shown septicaemia due to E.coli Extended Spectrum Beta Lacatamase, which is resistant to many commonly used first-line antibiotics . .

wolfpawnat

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

A clearer picture is emerging, as facts pile up, but there's still a bit of work to be done in collating it all. However, these extracts might be of help.

Thank you, I had tried to find info as to whether she presented to the hospital with it or was it a result of her prolonged miscarriage. As a result I would say the recommendation of the strong anti-biotics and subsequent death of foetus would have been recommended and then the passing of the foetus, if the doctor had been aware of her condition. It shows how a lack of communication killed the poor woman, but also prolonged the emotional and physical turmoil she and Praveen suffered. My God (I dunno why I say that, I am no way religious) when you think of the suffering that could have been prevented!

Overheal

Cavehill Red wrote: »

BIG if. The consultant denies saying it. I found it unlikely at the time that any doctor in Ireland would say such a thing. I remain even more convinced today that it was never said.

How does this strike you,

"This is 'Merica! God's country!!" (It's not..)

To think that there exists no religious zealotry in Ireland of all places is a bit misguided. You don't think Ireland being a Catholic country is an opinion held by anyone, right or wrong? I've heard of scientists that believe in creationism over evolution so the profession is nothing to hide behind. Plenty of medical professionals the world over have moral hang ups about abortion.