Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

sydthebeat

You have shown by your posts that you are unable to argue the topic. You pervert the opposing view by suggesting it saying something entirely different.

Adieu, you won't be missed.

mfceiling

I'm following this topic with interest.

I do a fair bit of work for self builders and for builders also.

This week alone i have taken 6 calls for ceilings (all looking done before xmas) from self builders who are under the impression that the sh*t will hit the fan on jan 1. Another called me tonight to ask me if i could do his house tomorrow (haven't seen a plan, drawing, idea of square meterage). Unfortunately i've a prior appointment with santa in castlecomer!!

I wonder if/when the regs change and only certain builders make the grade or become certified, will their prices increase due to the fact that the labour pool might diminish?

Penn

martinn123 and sydthebeat both banned for one week for ignoring mod instruction.

wirehairmax

sydthebeat wrote: »

edit: also.. most building contractors out there havent a bloody clue whats coming down the tracks.

QUOTE]

Neither do most architects

rodzer

Back on topic. Again...
BER Assessors are currently watched like a hawk by the government (SEAI). You are expected to provide truthful accurate Certs, i.e. Not an opinion.
If you step out of line you get penalty points or banned.
Isn't this Building Control?
A similar procedure should be set up for general building.
Why should audits be given to one sector and not others?
It is the "Building Control" regulations after all !

archtech

rodzer wrote: »

Back on topic. Again...
BER Assessors are currently watched like a hawk by the government (SEAI). You are expected to provide truthful accurate Certs, i.e. Not an opinion.
If you step out of line you get penalty points or banned.
Isn't this Building Control?
A similar procedure should be set up for general building.
Why should audits be given to one sector and not others?
It is the "Building Control" regulations after all !

technically not as BERs fall under different legislation. That said DEAP is the tool stipulated within The building regulation demonstrate compliance with Part L of the regulations for new dwellings.

Selfbuilder14

hi all

I would appreciate a little help. We are currently planning on building an extension our plans are still in the planning process. I knew nothing of the new building regs until a couple of weeks ago and our budget was determined with us doing much of the build. We should get full planning permission in February but we will have to start after the 1st march. If we start after the 1st of March we cannot afford to build our extension as we planned for my husband to do the detailed design as he is a civil engineer but have now found out he cannot do this anymore and we will have to continue with our architect which we can't afford. Can you put your notice to build in before full planning issued with a date after which we should have revived planning so we can start before the 1st m,arch. We would only start the build if we received full planning.

This is causing me and my husband so much stress we can't afford to buy a bigger house and our existing house is too small. I am using all my savings for this and now to find we might not be able I feel very depressed. We have three small children and only want what's best for them.

Is there any chance the building regs will be postponed sounds like they have not been fully thought out and have so many holes.

Thanks

DOCARCH

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

We are currently planning on building an extension our plans are still in the planning process.

Hi SB14

First of all, how big is the proposed extension (in terms of the floor area of the proposed extension), secondly, when do expect to recieve planning permission/a decision...early/mid/late February (or when was your planning application lodged)?

If your proposed extension is less than 40.0 m.sq., then you have nothing to worry about, these proposed regs do not apply.

Selfbuilder14

DOCARCH wrote: »

Hi SB14

First of all, how big is the proposed extension (in terms of the floor area of the proposed extension), secondly, when do expect to recieve planning permission/a decision...early/mid/late February (or when was your planning application lodged)?

If your proposed extension is less than 40.0 m.sq., then you have nothing to worry about, these proposed regs do not apply.

Hi docarch

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question our extension is too large not to go for planning. We submitted our application on the 28th November and have been given a date of the 31st Jan when we should know the intent. A further 4 weeks has to follow taking us to the end of February. As the notice to build has to give a further 2 weeks before we can build this takes us into March. We have no time to spare. Planning can take anything from 5 to 8 weeks but I think normally takes about 6 if everything in order. What I want to know is when we get the councils conditional planning offer sometime in Jan could we theoretically go to give our notice of intent to build? We would then start end of February missing the new building regs? We would only start when full planning received. I am sure there will be no problems but can't be sure.

Is this a possibility ? We are hopefully if planning deal with quickly we may just about have time. Problem is Christmas adds an extra 9 days to the process.

DOCARCH

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

Hi docarch

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question our extension is too large not to go for planning. We submitted our application on the 28th November and have been given a date of the 31st Jan when we should know the intent.

That would be about right for an application submitted on November 28th. Cutting it fine!

As far as I am aware, in theory, you can submit a commencement notice 2 weeks prior to the final grant of planning permission (assuming there are no thrid party objections to the application and once you do not intend to appeal the decision).

Note, that I have never done this and I am open to correction on this...but, I read it somewhere. Maybe others can clarify/comment?

kkelliher

letter from mr hogan in sunday business post today on this issue and his intention to conti ue with it

Supertech

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

Hi docarch Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question our extension is too large not to go for planning.

Can you clarify the actual area ?
It may require planning permission but still be exempt from the new Regulations. 40 sq.m is a sizeable footprint.

Selfbuilder14

1500 square foot 2 storey barn shaped roof. To compliment our bungalow.

Supertech

Jaysus !!

That's a big extension.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the timescale is really tight. As you've identified, the days lost over Christmas are a problem.
I'm not sure about lodging before the final grant issues either. Again I've heard of it being done, but never actually done it. I think there's a section on the commencement notice which requires the date of grant of permission to be filled in.

DOCARCH

Supertech wrote: »

Jaysus !!
Again I've heard of it being done, but never actually done it.

+1 on this...just to highlight again!

DOCARCH

kkelliher wrote: »

letter from mr hogan in sunday business post today on this issue and his intention to conti ue with it

I read the article...all sounds rosey!

Amongst other things, he talks about/mentions latent defects insurance (...not in the current legislation), registration of building contractors (...not due until 2105 at the earliest), and, the role of Building Control in the process (...the majority of which [if not all] will not have the necessary proceedures/software in place in time)...

....but still he proposes to push ahead with a March 1st kick off!

Daft!

4Sticks

In a practical sense now is the moment the regs start to bite.The minister has published a letter in the SBP today stating full steam ahead and no changes.

My best estimate of how many professionals we have in Ireland to offer the services required by the now - in practical terms - effective regulations , is

1200 architects ( no of practices x 2 )
153 Building Surveyors
200 Chartered Consulting Engineers

Not all of the above will be willing/inclined to service the domestic market as they will be only experienced or dedicated only to other , non domestic sectors.

So it appears there is a massive mis match of workload vs manpower. A workload for which , rightly or wrongly , architects are running scared of the ( possibly un insurable)* risks they face under the effectively current regulations.

From here I obtained the data on the attached Excel file. Last year 2012 - the worst for decades saw 3070 commencement notices lodged for single house. I have not got stats on domestic extensions ( If anyone can assist me with that - pleased do)

So as gaybo would say there was one for everyone. In fact almost 3 new houses for each architect by my ( approximate and rough ) calculations. I have no idea how many extensions greater than 40m2 were commenced.

For the consumer it looks very very bad. You are being forced to do business with a small number of professionals that are sacred of their new responsibilities. This will reflected in the price .

But don't blame the minister. Blame the architects.


* this is vital - if you are getting a price for architectural services only accept it when you first see a clear and un ambiguous statement written by the architects PI provider to you that this architect is covered to provide the services required by the new regulations. Otherwise you will be in receipt of certification which is not backed up by insurances.

Selfbuilder14

Supertech wrote: »

Jaysus !!

That's a big extension.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the timescale is really tight. As you've identified, the days lost over Christmas are a problem.
I'm not sure about lodging before the final grant issues either. Again I've heard of it being done, but never actually done it. I think there's a section on the commencement notice which requires the date of grant of permission to be filled in.

Thanks

That is what we will do and hopefully it will go through no hitches. If it works we will have a bottle of champagne if not we will have to rethink.

Open A

I think it is really unfair that there hasn't been any public awareness on this: the final wording of the regs has not been agreed, yet you are expected to change your plans mid way through your project. Pressure is beginning to build on the minister to postpone the implementation date. I would advise everyone negatively affected by this to write to ministers raising their concerns. The more voices, the more likely deferral will happen. Deferral would buy a little time to amend to a system that actually works. Here are the email addresses of ministers

Here is why the new regs do not work: http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/11/29/home-owners-will-be-no-better-off-at-the-next-priory-hall-priory-hall-bregs/
Here is how self-builders will be phased out under the proposed regs: http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/self-builders-to-be-phased-out-under-s-i-80-bregs/
Here is how a hiatus in the industry is coming in March, putting 100,000 jobs and a €10billion industry (2014) at risk: http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/a-hiatus-in-the-construction-industry/

If everyone could take 10mins to write to a few ministers, it could make all the difference. The handy thing is no one is surprised when they hear Phil Hogan is making a mess of this...

strongback

4Sticks wrote: »

In a practical sense now is the moment the regs start to bite.The minister has published a letter in the SBP today stating full steam ahead and no changes.

My best estimate of how many professionals we have in Ireland to offer the services required by the now - in practical terms - effective regulations , is

1200 architects ( no of practices x 2 )
153 Building Surveyors
200 Chartered Consulting Engineers

Not all of the above will be willing/inclined to service the domestic market as they will be only experienced or dedicated only to other , non domestic sectors.

So it appears there is a massive mis match of workload vs manpower. A workload for which , rightly or wrongly , architects are running scared of the ( possibly un insurable)* risks they face under the effectively current regulations.

From here I obtained the data on the attached Excel file. Last year 2012 - the worst for decades saw 3070 commencement notices lodged for single house. I have not got stats on domestic extensions ( If anyone can assist me with that - pleased do)

So as gaybo would say there was one for everyone. In fact almost 3 new houses for each architect by my ( approximate and rough ) calculations. I have no idea how many extensions greater than 40m2 were commenced.

For the consumer it looks very very bad. You are being forced to do business with a small number of professionals that are sacred of their new responsibilities. This will reflected in the price .

But don't blame the minister. Blame the architects.


* this is vital - if you are getting a price for architectural services only accept it when you first see a clear and un ambiguous statement written by the architects PI provider to you that this architect is covered to provide the services required by the new regulations. Otherwise you will be in receipt of certification which is not backed up by insurances.

I would estimate that there are as many if not more chartered civil and structural engineers as there are fully qualified architects. There are just more graduating with civil and structural engineering degrees than architecture and healthy numbers of engineers becoming chartered every year.

Many more engineers have also gotten involved with house extensions and one off houses than would have in the past, There just isn't a lot of engineering in a house so now engineers get involved in designing, planning and the project management side. It adds more competition to an already squeezed market.

Architects and engineers need to make money so I can't see how the legislation won't be adopted. It's a simple case of work or starve. It's a gun to people's heads and a very negative punitive way of implementing policy. That's nothing new from this and the previous government. 'Do what we say or find another job'.



On another point is there any update on where the wording of the compliance statements is at? Is it true the insurance companies are softening their stance and are coming in line with what the legislation requires?

4Sticks

strongback wrote: »

I would estimate that there are as many if not more chartered civil and structural engineers .

I count about 200. Only Chartered engineers count in terms of this legislation. Do you have another list ?

4Sticks

strongback wrote: »

Many more engineers have also gotten involved with house extensions and one off houses than would have in the past,

Read this post carefully.

4Sticks

strongback wrote: »

Is it true the insurance companies are softening their stance and are coming in line with what the legislation requires?

The acid test of this legislation. Without affordable PI insurance the regulations amount to nothing.

DOCARCH

4Sticks wrote: »

The acid test of this legislation. Without affordable PI insurance the regulations amount to nothing.

That's really going to be a huge factor.

As far as I am aware, only two professional indemnity insurers are on board with the new regs (and note on board on the basis of proposed amendments to the regs, which, the Dept have yet to indicate/confirm they will make).

Some insurers may simply leave the market and the ones who remain will hike premiums.

The new regs are due to come into effect in 11 weeks (from this Friday)!

DOCARCH

4Sticks wrote: »

1200 architects ( no of practices x 2 )
153 Building Surveyors
200 Chartered Consulting Engineers

That's sobering!

Bear in mind that probably the majority of the 600 odd architectural practices (registered with the RIAI) are 'one man bands'.

As you suggest, not all architects (whatever about engineers and surveyors) will take on the role of assigned certifier.

I am aware, personally, of a number of architects who are nearing retiremnet age, who simply do not want the hassle and will not take on this role.

Maybe they will bring in a system where hair dressers, taxi drivers, et al, can become assigner certifiers! :P

strongback

4Sticks wrote: »

I count about 200. Only Chartered engineers count in terms of this legislation. Do you have another list ?

This is the list of ACEI members. The ACEI is the the Association of Consulting Engineers of Ireland. The members of the ACEI are almost exclusively made up of principles of companies i.e. directors. Staff in these companies rarely become members. Keep in mind some of the members/companies in the ACEI come from engineering disciplines such as Mechanical and Electrical engineering and they would not be involved in signing off overall buildings in the vast majority of cases. It is generally civil/structural engineers who would be signing off on houses and buildings.

Many of the individuals on the ACEI list are very well know amongst engineers as a lot of these individuals head up the most well established engineering practices in the country. Some of the members though run smaller or newer practices but these would make up a minority of the list

Within the ACEI companies listed I would be surprised if there were not 1000 chartered engineers on their staff.

There are also, however, large numbers of one man band companiy engineers who are chartered and these are the people who do a lot of the work on extensions and one off houses. You won't see their names appearing on the ACEI list generally.

The vast majority of charted engineers in this country receive their chartership from Engineers Ireland. This is the list that will give the true numbers. I don't have this list but I imagine it would be available. The truest list would be the number of civil and structural engineers.


There are 24,000 members of Engineers Ireland. This makes up all technical disciplines. Not all members are chartered.

strongback

4Sticks wrote: »

Read this post carefully.

A charted engineer can sign off buildings under the new legislation. If an engineer is not chartered then they can't.

Engineers Ireland Agreement SE 9202 allows chartered engineers to do the overall architectural and engineering design and the sign off on buildings in the same way an architect does.

4Sticks

strongback wrote: »

The vast majority of charted engineers in this country receive their chartership from Engineers Ireland. This is the list that will give the true numbers. I don't have this list but I imagine it would be available. The truest list would be the number of civil and structural engineers.

Thanks for your input - I have tried to find the list but failed - can you assist

Open A

4Sticks wrote: »

The acid test of this legislation. Without affordable PI insurance the regulations amount to nothing.

Have a look at: http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/latest-revisions-to-building-regulations-make-matters-worse-bregs/

I've read Denis McDonald's senior council opinion on the recent industry stakeholders agreed wording of S.I.80 & the certs.. The new wording makes matters worse and insurance harder to obtain than the original wording.

4Sticks

So if no one can obtain insurance .....