Renault may sell Zoe with battery.

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2013/04/05/cap-warns-renault-against-battery-lease-for-evs/

It makes a lot of sense to give people the option to buy or lease like Smart offer on their electric smart for two.

I like Zoe because it has the greatest potential range and because of the efficient heat pump heater and above all the Chameleon on board charger capable of charging in under an hour from almost if not all of the ESB's chargers, the new generation of fast DC chargers will have AC, so Zoe can charge in under 30 mins to 80%. I think they have new fast chargers coming on line in the next few weeks. But I like the idea that if I need to charge it will take under an hour from a (non) fast charger rather than 8-9 hrs with the Leaf if charging at non fast chargers. Though the 2nd gen Leaf in the summer will charge in under 4 hours, still the Zoe wins for me because I can't imagine I'd be going over 90 miles in one go without stopping.

It's a shame Nissan didn't install the same Chameleon charger instead of a 6.5 kw, still the Leaf has the Fast DC charge option.

If they can get it priced as close to the Diesel Clio then they could seriously have a winner as the cost to fuel is ridiculously low and for now the public charging is free.

corglass

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2013/04/05/cap-warns-renault-against-battery-lease-for-evs/

Anyone know when Renault Ireland are getting these?

corglass

corglass wrote: »

Anyone know when Renault Ireland are getting these?

There have been serious delays, but it's available from June in the U.K probably a month or two later in Ireland.

The battery lease in the U.K is 93 pounds for 12,000 miles a year over 3 years. Or 109 Euro's or 3,960 over the 3 years or 12,000 miles.

The cost of the highest spec Zoe in the U.K is 16,500 Euro's which should be close to the cost here as they are VRT free and the vat difference is tiny these days.

Zoe also comes standard with kit that would cost a few thousand extra on another car, so you are not exactly comparing apples with apples, for instance the Zoe if automatic, (no gearbox ) or would be another 1500 on the price of a diesel clio.

A diesel clio is over 20 Grand for the high spec which doesn't include sat nav or remote start of the a/c (heater) or automatic. Parking camera atc.

Richard tea

NEDC give it a 130 mile range so thats good for starters. The whole renting the battery thing is a major put off though. If its 70 sterling to rent in England it bound to be at least 100 over here:(

Richard tea

Richard tea wrote: »

NEDC give it a 130 mile range so thats good for starters. The whole renting the battery thing is a major put off though. If its 70 sterling to rent in England it bound to be at least 100 over here:(

Swings and roundabouts.

Pay more for the car and own the battery or rent and pay less for the car.

I'm not sure why Irish people are anti lease ?

In the U.K you can lease the leafe for instance, pay say 3 grand up front and x amount per month for 3 years, at the end buy the car or hand back the keys and get a brand new car.

For higher mileage driver like me though that might not work.

As for the mileage, 130 miles on the Euro cycle are results in a lab afaik ?

real world mileage will be 90-110 miles, hammer the throttle and it will be less, go easy and it could be more than 120 miles.

The best thing about Zoe though is the ability to charge in under an hour from any ESB charge point.

Hotel chargers, Airport are not ESB chargers and will not likely charge so fast.

I've yet to find out how fast the Airprt chargers are ? I know most of the hotel chargers will be around 3 kw taking 8 hrs for empty to full.

It would seem really really stupid if the airport chargers were only capable of 3 kw !

shamrock55

Do renault have an electric saloon car ??

dgt

shamrock55 wrote: »

Do renault have an electric saloon car ??

Yes, Fluence

Yes but the fluence is a 1st gen EV from renault and not nearly as good as Zoe, the generation difference is huge.

For instance the Fluence can only charge at 3 kw, and has no fast charger, uses same battery chemistry as the Leaf, zoe uses a better chemistry made by LGchem, the Fluence also has less range.

I'm trying to find out if the Zoe's battery is air cooled like the Leaf or Actively cooled, Active would mean no loss of range in winter.

Zoe also has a bigger boot than the Leaf !

Here is a pic of Zoe's Motor, Charger and inverter.

Motor is on the bottom and note the motor is actually the middle section of the bottom pic, you got to love the power of electric motors !!!

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2013/04/05/cap-warns-renault-against-battery-lease-for-evs/

It makes a lot of sense to give people the option to buy or lease like Smart offer on their electric smart for two.

I like Zoe because it has the greatest potential range and because of the efficient heat pump heater and above all the Chameleon on board charger capable of charging in under an hour from almost if not all of the ESB's chargers, the new generation of fast DC chargers will have AC, so Zoe can charge in under 30 mins to 80%. I think they have new fast chargers coming on line in the next few weeks. But I like the idea that if I need to charge it will take under an hour from a (non) fast charger rather than 8-9 hrs with the Leaf if charging at non fast chargers. Though the 2nd gen Leaf in the summer will charge in under 4 hours, still the Zoe wins for me because I can't imagine I'd be going over 90 miles in one go without stopping.

It's a shame Nissan didn't install the same Chameleon charger instead of a 6.5 kw, still the Leaf has the Fast DC charge option.

If they can get it priced as close to the Diesel Clio then they could seriously have a winner as the cost to fuel is ridiculously low and for now the public charging is free.

Couldn't agree more about the Zoe,although I lease mine,there is talk that after the first year the battery rental may come down to £49, depending on miles used. Don't know if I would ever want to own a Li-on battery pack though.?

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Couldn't agree more about the Zoe,although I lease mine,there is talk that after the first year the battery rental may come down to £49, depending on miles used. Don't know if I would ever want to own a Li-on battery pack though.?

I never heard the price coming down with age ? makes perfect sense.

Well I worked out over my mileage i'd have paid for a brand new battery twice with my mileage, so not worth renting, this was based on leaf figures.

A new battery costs in or around 5,000-6,000 euro's. This is for a 24 Kwh battery, based on the price without battery in the U.K is around 5K more for the Leaf with battery than without.

Interestingly, Toyota charge around 6K more for their plug in Prius with only 4 Kwh battery, talk about a rip off ?

Leasing the battery is greatly expensive if you do high miles, and doesn't make it worth while, after you pay the excess. But if it were cheaper then it would make sense.

However, by the time they will replace the battery it will have to have lost 30% capacity, so a Leaf with 60 winter miles, pretty worse case will now have a 49 mile range, so this seriously impacts the practicality of you can;t charge at your destination.

Leasing the battery makes perfect sense if you will fast charge multiple times daily.

Leasing the battery makes 0 sense if you do 12K miles a year or less and intend to sell it after 3 years.

Dexter1979

Personally wouldn't touch the Zoe while they insist on taking out a lease on the battery. I would rather pay 5k in a few years for a better battery if it were available as it would be my choice. I also don't like the idea of Renault turning off the battery if I don't pay the lease.

Awesome car though.

kdouglas

Last I heard, Renault were sticking with their Battery lease model. Personally I think that's a bad idea.

If I want to lease a car, I'll lease the whole car, battery included.
If I want to buy a car, I'll buy the whole car, battery included.

Buying the car, and being tied to a battery lease is just a nightmare to me, particularly for running cost savings and future resale value.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Personally wouldn't touch the Zoe while they insist on taking out a lease on the battery. I would rather pay 5k in a few years for a better battery if it were available as it would be my choice. I also don't like the idea of Renault turning off the battery if I don't pay the lease.

Awesome car though.

Zoe looks good but it's typically Renault slow. 14 seconds 0-100 kph. And it's not much more efficient than the newest Leaf.

In a few years you may decide to get rid of the car.

If someone doesn't abuse fast charging, then I could imaging someone being able to travel 150K miles before end of life.

Current indications suggest 15% loss of battery capacity after 75,000 is miles, usually loss is more in the first few years. It could make the Leaf still useful for many with fast charging.

kdouglas

kdouglas wrote: »

Last I heard, Renault were sticking with their Battery lease model. Personally I think that's a bad idea.

If I want to lease a car, I'll lease the whole car, battery included.
If I want to buy a car, I'll buy the whole car, battery included.

Buying the car, and being tied to a battery lease is just a nightmare to me, particularly for running cost savings and future resale value.

Yes they should just lease the car,I'm sure there are PCP options ?

Bigus

I agree with CAP how the hell are they going to secure their batteries.

So if I buy a secondhand Zoe from somebody emigrating to Australia for good, wtf are Renault going to do to secure ownership of "their" battery after I buy the car they can feck off, and see me in court if they can find me.

Leasing model will make a balls of this car , typical Renault , make a potentially good car but balls it up,some way or other.

Renault can disable charging on the battery remotely. They won;t disable the car or discharging only charging.

Bigus

Deleted User wrote: »

Renault can disable charging on the battery remotely. They won;t disable the car or discharging only charging.

It'll be hacked soon enough, just like BMW E90 keys., or some enterprising company will offer spurious replacements.

Proves a point with CAP though, battery disputes could potentially make this car worthless secondhand, I fully agree.

Bigus

Bigus wrote: »

It'll be hacked soon enough, just like BMW E90 keys., or some enterprising company will offer spurious replacements.

Proves a point with CAP though, battery disputes could potentially make this car worthless secondhand, I fully agree.

It could make the car worthless, yes, but only if they don't reduce the rental as the battery ages. I wouldn't pay full whack for a battery that has lost 10-15% capacity. The battery will have to loose 25-30%capacity before it's replaced.

You could potentially hack the firmware to stop communication but I doubt anyone would spend the time doing so. And most likely you'd end up effecting the ability to remote start heat and a/c & charging. I doubt most people would give up that comfort.

I can imagine you'd be entering a legally binding contract for battery hire and breaking that contract will result in getting sued by Renault, though I'm no legal expert what so ever.

Bigus

Deleted User wrote: »

It could make the car worthless, yes,

I can imagine you'd be entering a legally binding contract for battery hire and breaking that contract will result in getting sued by Renault, though I'm no legal expert what so ever.

I agree and so does CAP in the uk, hence they can't calculate future values.
Furthermore, nobody in their right mind would buy outright(with their own money) an asset that's slightly encumbered or, if unencumbered financially,mechanically useless = bad idea = bad investment.

The only way to get use out of one of these would be rental, putting ones capital into one would be nonsensical under the current split arrangement.

Please realise this is an absolute show stopper for these ZOE s ,certainly when it comes to outright purchase, (and cap uk agree with me ).



As for renault suing people this is the whole argument for not buying one outright underlying the uncertainty of future ownership, however not everybody is a mark to be sued, so enforcing their contracts and recovering their batteries will be interesting, especially if a certain community in Ireland get in on the act.

Hackers will find a way to get around Renaults stupidity! because of the potential value of doing so.

Bigus

Bigus wrote: »

As for renault suing people this is the whole argument for not buying one outright underlying the uncertainty of future ownership, however not everybody is a mark to be sued, so enforcing their contracts and recovering their batteries will be interesting, especially if a certain community in Ireland get in on the act.

Hackers will find a way to get around Renaults stupidity! because of the potential value of doing so.

Most people couldn't afford the risk of loosing a case in the courts though, so I don't think most people would not pay the rental.

I really don't understand their refusal to just sell the lot together ? they do in Norway so what's so different about Ireland ?

Zoe isn't cheap and going by U.K leaf battery rental costs including, for me, excess charges would end up costing substantially over 70 K miles.

I'll see if I can work it out here on Boards.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Most people couldn't afford the risk of loosing a case in the courts though, so I don't think most people would not pay the rental.

I really don't understand their refusal to just sell the lot together ? they do in Norway so what's so different about Ireland ?

Zoe isn't cheap and going by U.K leaf battery rental costs including, for me, excess charges would end up costing substantially over 70 K miles.

I'll see if I can work it out here on Boards.

Sorry if this has been discussed before,but I assume that individual modules would be replaced by Renault, rather than a whole battery.As there are I assume around 100 cells in series @ 4v/cell. Battery balancing,ie leaving the Zoe to balance when it gets to 99/100% charge,taking a long time to do so, may prolong battery life?

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Sorry if this has been discussed before,but I assume that individual modules would be replaced by Renault, rather than a whole battery.As there are I assume around 100 cells in series @ 4v/cell. Battery balancing,ie leaving the Zoe to balance when it gets to 99/100% charge,taking a long time to do so, may prolong battery life?

The whole battery will be replaced because you're renting.

The Leaf on the non rental i.e all Irish leafs mean they will only replace modules.

Because Nissan continue to refuse owners of non leased batteries to buy a brand new battery mean they have to install modules of similar age, capacity and internal resistance in order to ensure all the cells stay reasonably well balanced.

Nissan will only repair a battery to in or around 70% only, so once the battery reaches below 70% they will repair to 70 ish %.

70% is deemed end of life in the battery world. Not acceptable imo in an electrical vehicle with limited range.

derry

reboot wrote: »

Sorry if this has been discussed before,but I assume that individual modules would be replaced by Renault, rather than a whole battery.As there are I assume around 100 cells in series @ 4v/cell. Battery balancing,ie leaving the Zoe to balance when it gets to 99/100% charge,taking a long time to do so, may prolong battery life?

The Leaf battery is best I can tell modules of 4 battery which are 3.8 volt ~30 amp batteries making that 2s2p battery of 7.6 volts ~60 amps
There are 48 of these modules looking like they are in two groups of 22 packs to give some 190 volts and some big ass Amp hours

Cant say I agree all evidence is best to not fully charge lithium polymer type and Li Ion type batteries and not to fully discharge them if your looking to extend the life of them .
The batteries are most stressed when they reach close to full capacity and really heat up as they reach lowest charge ..Fast charging from 10% full to 80% full all the time will probably ensure batteries get longest cycle longest kilometers life .
high temperatures kill these batteries in the Leaf car fast
The battery life of the first 2011 LEAF in Florida and other hot places was as low as 40,000 miles before arriving at bars or ~70%. In cool climates the batteries often get past 60,000 miles that Nissan will repair them at .
The new leaf battery's are the Lizard type reputedly more robust to heat problems .

Repeatedly fast charging to 100% is where the damage looks most likly to lie if they follow the known rules of the Lithium polymer and Li Ion battery types .Repeatedly fast charging to 80% looks less likely to reduce battery life but time will tell,

All the data seems to suggest driving 50 miles fast charging to 80% and repeating that frequently in day doesn't cause problems.
Why anyone would want to turn a fast charge to ~80% into a one hour session with 100% is beyond my understanding but from the queues at chargers this seems to be developing trend .
Is it some non or less technical Leaf owners dont understand the logic of charging or they have some misinformation that 100% charges are best for battery

However the 60,000 mile guarantee makes it no brainer to abuse the batteries fast charge to 100% every time and do what suits your style more than the logic to care and protect batteries
Derry

Markcheese

So why does the computer on board the car let you charge the battery to 100 %.
Shouldn't it let you only fast charge to 80% odd, and maybe trickle charge to 95% odd ... It seems battery management is kind of neglected by the manufacturers ... Heating and cooling of the battery seem important and could be done by remote or timer off mains ... I'm sure it's all being done on some cars but when it seems such simple and cheap ideas that majorly affect battery life-(and hence reputation/reliability ) and cost (if Nissan are replacing overcharged batteries )
On a similar note ,heat pumps obviously aren't cheap ,and still use battery life... Is there any other external heat source that could be used-( I'm not suggesting a wood burning stove in the corner of your leaf )

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

So why does the computer on board the car let you charge the battery to 100 %.
Shouldn't it let you only fast charge to 80% odd, and maybe trickle charge to 95% odd ... It seems battery management is kind of neglected by the manufacturers ... Heating and cooling of the battery seem important and could be done by remote or timer off mains ... I'm sure it's all being done on some cars but when it seems such simple and cheap ideas that majorly affect battery life-(and hence reputation/reliability ) and cost (if Nissan are replacing overcharged batteries )
On a similar note ,heat pumps obviously aren't cheap ,and still use battery life... Is there any other external heat source that could be used-( I'm not suggesting a wood burning stove in the corner of your leaf )

The battery doesn't fully charge to 100% but it's still a high state of charge.

They allow more than 80% on a fast charge in order to allow someone who really needs the extra charge.

after 80% the charge rate falls from about 53 kw to 9-10 kw.

If the battery is very hot it's very bad for the battery to charge past 80%.

Shallow fast charges are always best, from say 20-70%, just enough to get home.

The zoe battery may not get nearly as warm as the leaf battery, it's completely different to the Leaf battery.

Zoe could have had a battery heater like the Kia soul and optional in the I3.

The heat pump is good enough, once battery get bigger there won't really be issues with range.

reboot

derry wrote: »

The Leaf battery is best I can tell modules of 4 battery which are 3.8 volt ~30 amp batteries making that 2s2p battery of 7.6 volts ~60 amps
There are 48 of these modules looking like they are in two groups of 22 packs to give some 190 volts and some big ass Amp hours

Cant say I agree all evidence is best to not fully charge lithium polymer type and Li Ion type batteries and not to fully discharge them if your looking to extend the life of them .
The batteries are most stressed when they reach close to full capacity and really heat up as they reach lowest charge ..Fast charging from 10% full to 80% full all the time will probably ensure batteries get longest cycle longest kilometers life .
high temperatures kill these batteries in the Leaf car fast
The battery life of the first 2011 LEAF in Florida and other hot places was as low as 40,000 miles before arriving at bars or ~70%. In cool climates the batteries often get past 60,000 miles that Nissan will repair them at .
The new leaf battery's are the Lizard type reputedly more robust to heat problems .

Repeatedly fast charging to 100% is where the damage looks most likly to lie if they follow the known rules of the Lithium polymer and Li Ion battery types .Repeatedly fast charging to 80% looks less likely to reduce battery life but time will tell,

All the data seems to suggest driving 50 miles fast charging to 80% and repeating that frequently in day doesn't cause problems.
Why anyone would want to turn a fast charge to ~80% into a one hour session with 100% is beyond my understanding but from the queues at chargers this seems to be developing trend .
Is it some non or less technical Leaf owners dont understand the logic of charging or they have some misinformation that 100% charges are best for battery

However the 60,000 mile guarantee makes it no brainer to abuse the batteries fast charge to 100% every time and do what suits your style more than the logic to care and protect batteries
Derry

Agree with that, I have got my head in my had because I raised the issue of new expensive triple chargers now Outputting 160 Amps DC.?
I believe the Zoe only goes into battery balancing mode after 90% charge , and the indication stays on for a very long time before hitting 100%.

noelf

Zoe is Getting a new motor for 2015 10% lighter and more compact for a 8% increase in range designed in conjunction with Nissan .. Autocar

Sounds good, but still way too slow.

They should have a more powerful option.

Dexter1979

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sounds good, but still way too slow.

They should have a more powerful option.

What is peoples fascination with speed? EVs leave every ICE car in dust at a light. They all do motorway speeds but some may get there a few seconds later. Not an issue for me.

I am interested in the battery included option. In saying that now that Nissan offer a battery replacement program in the works my battery lease is basically a pre paid version of this. I know you are still concerned that Renault will just repair rather than replace it with a new battery but I'm not convinced they can do that here in Ireland. But we had that discussion before

Next year you might be able to buy a Zoe-I in the UK. This would be good as it would probably the same or lower price than new in Ireland.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

What is peoples fascination with speed? EVs leave every ICE car in dust at a light. They all do motorway speeds but some may get there a few seconds later. Not an issue for me.

I am interested in the battery included option. In saying that now that Nissan offer a battery replacement program in the works my battery lease is basically a pre paid version of this. I know you are still concerned that Renault will just repair rather than replace it with a new battery but I'm not convinced they can do that here in Ireland. But we had that discussion before

Next year you might be able to buy a Zoe-I in the UK. This would be good as it would probably the same or lower price than new in Ireland.

Zoe may be quick up to 40 mph but power reduces a lot over 80Kph, but for most commutes it's more than good enough.

It's miles better than any engine Renault would stuff into a car that size, most people would be amazed by the smoothness of the drive train.

Nissan Ireland do not and won't offer a battery replacement program for the Leaf, and I doubt they will even repair the old battery from the sounds of it. By the time comes that leaf batteries need repair they might just decide it's easier to just install a new one but I just don't understand how they won't even entertain the idea of battery replacement ?

Renault Ireland have not hinted they will offer the zoe with the battery in Ireland ? It's unfortunate that it will make the car too expensive for Irish Renault buyers. Most Clio's sold are around 15K. 25K for Zoe with battery is just too expensive which is a crying shame.