Toilets for non paying customers.

wylam

Hi guys, sorry the title is wrong,{ Toilets for customer use only }

Can anyone out there clarify this for me please.
A man walked up to the door where i work and asked could he use the toilet, there were 3 sign's behind me, 1 on my left and 1 on my right that stated, (toilets are for customer use only)When i informed him that the management do not allow non customer to use the toilets he told me that it was against the law for me to refuse him.He said that it states in the irish constitution that no man,woman or child can be refused the use of a toilet. He said anyone has the right to walk up to the door of your house and "demand" the use of your toilet facilities.

He proceeded to say that it is not illegal for women to urinate in public but it is for a man and if you decide to drop your shorts and take a dump in the street any gardai that see you must remove their coat and shield you from the view of the public.So can any one shed any light on what is the letter of the law regarding the constitution on these statements? or was it just waffle to blag his way into the premises.

ABajaninCork

I think it's waffle. The premises are private, so whatever the owner says goes. Using the loo is entirely at the owner's discretion. But IANAL!!

the_syco

wylam wrote: »

A man walked up to the door where i work and asked could he use the toilet, there were 3 sign's behind me, 1 on my left and 1 on my right that stated, (toilets are for customer use only)When i informed him that the management do not allow non customer to use the toilets he told me that it was against the law for me to refuse him.He said that it states in the irish constitution that no man,woman or child can be refused the use of a toilet. He said anyone has the right to walk up to the door of your house and "demand" the use of your toilet facilities.

Sounds like freeman bullsh|t, otherwise every thief would be using it to gain access to peoples houses!

EyeSight

i think its any premises serving food or drink must provide toilets, for their customers.

The other stuff about doing your business in public sounds like one of those "crazy 16th century laws" that may still be around but are never enforced

ABajaninCork

EyeSight wrote: »

i think its any premises serving food or drink must provide toilets, for their customers.

The other stuff about doing your business in public sounds like one of those "crazy 16th century laws" that may still be around but are never enforced

True. But the OP was asking whether it was the law that non-paying people are allowed to walk in off the street and use the facilities.

Personally, I think the answer's no. It's another urban myth doing the rounds...

Stark

wylam wrote: »

He said that it states in the irish constitution that no man,woman or child can be refused the use of a toilet.

Eh no it doesn't.

.red.

Did you let him in or not? In my opinion you should have told him to pi$$ off

wylam

Yeah did sound like a load of waffle to me , but i heard him out just to see what he had to say on the matter and he then said go to Liam Russel's books and you can get a copy of the constitution there for 2 euro "go educate yourself" he said lol.

@.red. No i didn't leave him in , i just kept asking him question after question to try and trip him up to see if it was bull or not. when he got sick of this he left shaking his head and said if he gets caught urinating in the street that he is sending the gardai to speak to me. rofl.

micdug

wylam wrote: »

Yeah did sound like a load of waffle to me , but i heard him out just to see what he had to say on the matter and he then said go to Liam Russel's books and you can get a copy of the constitution there for 2 euro "go educate yourself" he said lol.

@.red. No i didn't leave him in , i just kept asking him question after question to try and trip him up to see if it was bull or not. when he got sick of this he left shaking his head and said if he gets caught urinating in the street that he is sending the gardai to speak to me. rofl.

You should have suggested to him he carry a copy of the Constitution to show the uneducated such as yourself the constitutional provision to crap in any toilet in the state. I mean, if he said he was caught short and desperate I might think about it (and not caught short to shoot up by the way) but he sounds like a common or garden nutter.

wylam

On the contrary micdug, he was well dressed and spoke like an educated man and seemed like he truly believed what he was saying was correct. I think he was walking past and saw the sign's behind me and then decided "im gonna educate this man in the constitution " because if he had just walked up to the door i would have had no reason to stop him from entering.

KCAccidental

he is wrong, simple as! there does seem to be a stench of freemen bullcrap off of his excuses.

finnharpsboy

my usual response to anyone asking for use of the facilities is to produce a bucket and say work away

minidazzler

There is definitely nothing in the constitution about this.

There could be a Cork City Bye Law though, as I do remember reading something somewhere about it.

There is certainly no national law, as this article would have mentioned it. http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-public-toilets-626631-Oct2012/

cantdecide

I think toilets being for customer use only is something that doesn't need to be overstated the way it sounds it is where you work. IMO this rule is something that should be used with discretion. If the sign doesn't deter someone and they ask anyway, I don't see what the big deal is if someone is caught short...

minidazzler

cantdecide wrote: »

I think toilets being for customer use only is something that doesn't need to be overstated the way it sounds it is where you work. IMO this rule is something that should be used with discretion. If the sign doesn't deter someone and they ask anyway, I don't see what the big deal is if someone is caught short...

Mostly it's because if you refuse someone and they can think up a reason that it was discriminatory then you'll be up in court at very least.

Specifically junkies on disability for their "medical" condition.

wylam

@cantdecide, I work as a doorman on a respectable establishment , we usually start around 8pm which is when this rule is really enforced.I do use some discretion with this rule depending on the time of the night, but as i said above if this guy just walked up to the door and said nothing i would have let him in.But soon as he asked could he just use the toilet i had to refuse him.We have been subject to impromptu inspections by the owners to see if we are doing our jobs properly.So we have to do everything by the book.

EyeSight

ABajaninCork wrote: »

True. But the OP was asking whether it was the law that non-paying people are allowed to walk in off the street and use the facilities.

Personally, I think the answer's no. It's another urban myth doing the rounds...

i know. thats why i used the words "customers". i think the OP was right, i was saying what the actual law was

Tails142

If you read this - http://www.thejournal.ie/public-toilets-dublin-755462-Jan2013/ - you will see that it mentions among other things that Dublin City Council are trying to get an initiative going where local businesses make their toilets available as public conveniences on a voluntarily basis.

What does this mean? Well at present businesses do not have to let anyone use their toilets under any national law. I believe that where food is served toilets must be provided to customers but whether this is a byelaw, act or even just a HSE requirement on the basis of food safety I don't know.

The guy telling you he had a constitutional right to use your toilet was flat out wrong, which is normally the case when someone uses the words 'I have a constitutional right' as if its supposed to leave you quaking in your boots and cowering in fear.

dangerus06

this is mad he should have just walked on ,but i going tom to the garda station and go to the loo see if they cover me with their coat :P

starch4ser

wylam wrote: »

Hi guys, sorry the title is wrong,{ Toilets for customer use only }

Can anyone out there clarify this for me please.
A man walked up to the door where i work and asked could he use the toilet, there were 3 sign's behind me, 1 on my left and 1 on my right that stated, (toilets are for customer use only)When i informed him that the management do not allow non customer to use the toilets he told me that it was against the law for me to refuse him.He said that it states in the irish constitution that no man,woman or child can be refused the use of a toilet. He said anyone has the right to walk up to the door of your house and "demand" the use of your toilet facilities.

He proceeded to say that it is not illegal for women to urinate in public but it is for a man and if you decide to drop your shorts and take a dump in the street any gardai that see you must remove their coat and shield you from the view of the public.So can any one shed any light on what is the letter of the law regarding the constitution on these statements? or was it just waffle to blag his way into the premises.

Hi,

This is all true. It also states in section 9, clause 1 of the constitution, that "if the said person is cross eyed or has a "mullet" style haircut, the owner of the dwelling or licensed establishment is permitted to give them a kick in the bollocks"

Section 43 of the constitution (which concerns the established roles and duties of an garda siochana) does indeed state that a member of the guards is bound by Irish law to not only shield you from the public but also provide you his/her cap so that you can use it as a potty.

Amirani

starch4ser wrote: »

Section 43 of the constitution (which concerns the established roles and duties of an garda siochana) does indeed state that a member of the guards is bound by Irish law to not only shield you from the public but also provide you his/her cap so that you can use it as a potty.

Of course it does :rolleyes:

"Article 43

1. 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2. 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good. "

sok2005

Leave the man use the loo! In all fairness, was it really worth the hassle. I'm almost 100% positive no anarchy will befall the streets of Cork if a non paying customer uses that fair throne.

Balmed Out

gimmick wrote: »

What establishment is this? OP, if it was you who refused him, you are nothing more than a pathetic jobsworth. We have all been caught short at one stage or another in life.

I hope it happens you sometime.

Very harsh. When refused instead of saying please its an emergency or buying something he spouted a load of bull.
You dont know the type of business either or how many staff they have to go cleaning the toilet.

gimmick

Harsh perhaps, but from OPs tone, he was quite happy to not let him in.

I have worked in many pubs in my time. Soem posh, others not so. If a fella came in asking to use the toilet, the answer was always ok, without a second thought.

Solair

Stark wrote: »

Eh no it doesn't.

Article 40.4.7½

No citizen shall be deprived of access to a restaurant or café toilet, save in
accordance with law.

:P

It's next to the section on not leaving the toilet seat up and how restaurants should not charge for the supply of ketchup on pain of imprisonment.

OP: You've no more obligation to provide random members of the public with access to the toilets, than you have an obligation to provide them with free coffee.

cantdecide

gimmick wrote: »

We have been subject to impromptu inspections by the owners to see if we are doing our jobs properly.So we have to do everything by the book.

I'd have let him in anyway. Who in their right mind would fire you for letting someone use the loo on it's own?

Balmed Out

gimmick wrote: »

Harsh perhaps, but from OPs tone, he was quite happy to not let him in.

I have worked in many pubs in my time. Soem posh, others not so. If a fella came in asking to use the toilet, the answer was always ok, without a second thought.

Its different in a pub, most of them have more then one toilet and enough staff to clean regularly, small cafe's, dentists, leisure centres etc I would expect them to have a policy of no non customers using the toilet.

Solair

Most people tend to be fairly reasonable about it in Ireland.

Worst I ever came across was in Amsterdam. I spent about €6.00 in a cafe/bar and the waitress wouldn't let me use the loo because I was only getting a takeaway coffee + cake and wasn't sitting down.

So I insisted on returning the cake and getting refund.

the beer revolu

OP was dead right in not letting him in. Imagine the poor sod who would have to clean up if he divested himself of all the bullsh1t he was clearly full of in one go!

cantdecide

the beer revolu wrote: »

OP was dead right in not letting him in. Imagine the poor sod who would have to clean up if he divested himself of all the bullsh1t he was clearly full of in one go!

That was serendipitous. If he had approached me he would have been left use the loo and there would be no hostilities and no thread...

astronut

.red. wrote: »

you should have told him to pi$$ off

How ironic...

Ludo

Moral of the story looks like it is better to be dishonest and not ask permission. Nice.

sok2005

What if it was a mother with her child that needed to use the facilities? I really wonder what happened to common sense and courtesy sometimes. Céad Míle Fáilte and all that.

Stark

I'm guessing they ask nicely?

wylam

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

@cantdecide, The security industry in Ireland is now very hard industry to work in, every thing is scrutinised and the slightest bending or breaking of any rules of the establishment will most lightly lead to your contract not being renewed.On your second post there were no hostilities at all the man asked could he use the toilet , i explained the company policy in a polite manner and then he explained his version of the constitution.He left in the same humor he walked up to me in.

@Ludo, no one said be dishonest, what i said was if he had said nothing he could have just walked past me.But soon as he asked i had to refuse.Imo the only reason he asked was because he saw the signs.

@sok2005, As i said we start work at 8pm , i was approached sometime around 10pm.If a mother and child approached me at the same time then i would have to refuse, as it is against the law for anyone under the age of 18 to be on a licensed premises after 9pm.The pub could face large fines or closure.

I like the way threads start off with people answering the original question but then get lost and branch off , its fun to watch.I welcome anymore comments or questions people have.

Curly Judge

wylam wrote: »

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

@cantdecide, The security industry in Ireland is now very hard industry to work in, every thing is scrutinised and the slightest bending or breaking of any rules of the establishment will most lightly lead to your contract not being renewed.On your second post there were no hostilities at all the man asked could he use the toilet , i explained the company policy in a polite manner and then he explained his version of the constitution.He left in the same humor he walked up to me in.

@Ludo, no one said be dishonest, what i said was if he had said nothing he could have just walked past me.But soon as he asked i had to refuse.Imo the only reason he asked was because he saw the signs.

@sok2005, As i said we start work at 8pm , i was approached sometime around 10pm.If a mother and child approached me at the same time then i would have to refuse, as it is against the law for anyone under the age of 18 to be on a licensed premises after 9pm.The pub could face large fines or closure.

I like the way threads start off with people answering the original question but then get lost and branch off , its fun to watch.I welcome anymore comments or questions people have.

My modus operandi is to enter a pub and ask politely if I may use the loo.
I have never been refused!
On the way out I express my thanks to the barman/woman and slap a one euro [or if I'm feeling flush, two euro] coin on the counter saying, "That's for your favourite charity".
It's then up to them what they do with it.
Hand driers use electricity and toilet use water and someone has to keep the place clean!
Everyone has to live!

gimmick

wylam wrote: »

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

So you blindly follow your boss' instructions? Grand. You may not be a jobsworth, but those are the actions of a jobsworth.

Re the other bit, I have on many occasions asked could I use the facilities as a non customer. Its only polite. I have never been refused.

Oink

I don't think this is strictly about toilets.

A man walks into an office/shop, and starts talking about toilets and constitution, about dumping one in a guard's hat, and so on and so forth. If that was me, I wouldn't want him to come anywhere near me. I would want him to walk out the door and take his issues with him.

I think OP reacted against unrational behaviour, not necessarily against a man who simply needed a toilet.

wylam

My original post was asking whether he was correct in the statements made.It has been turned some what now into whether i was right or i was wrong to refuse him.

@Gimmick. A jobs worth is a person who uses their job description in a deliberately uncooperative way, or who delights in acting in an obstructive manner. I cooperated with this man to the best of my ability as i explained the companies policies regarding the use of the toilets by non customers.At no time did i delight in telling this man he could not use the facilities and i was very sympathetic to his plight.

To say that i "Blindly follow follow my boss' orders" is yet another rash statement. My job is to observe and control entry in and out of a premises.Each premises has different rules laid down by the owner/manager that we need to follow this is how a "proper premises" is run. Since I started on this door we have had 3 incidents in 2 and a half years.Other pubs/ clubs around the city could have 3 incidents a night. Our door staff are friendly and welcoming to customers at all times and deal with all incidents and queries in a polite manner. This is all to ensure that the paying customers already inside have a good night with no problems.If me following my boss's instructions ensures a good night for the people who pay my wages then i will follow them.Incidentally my full time job is a steel fabricator where i work on steel work using drawings that are accurate to +/- 1mm.Also in that job if i'm giving an instruction by my boss i tend to follow it, strange isn't it?

EyeSight

gimmick wrote: »

So you blindly follow your boss' instructions? Grand. You may not be a jobsworth, but those are the actions of a jobsworth.

Re the other bit, I have on many occasions asked could I use the facilities as a non customer. Its only polite. I have never been refused.

You are being very unfair. This man has a job to do, he must do as his boss tells him, as in every job. Why should he risk getting in trouble for this guy? He has a job he wants and probably needs to keep.

It would be fairly poor to refuse him use of the toilets if it was the only establishment around. But i assume this was in the city or a town where the man could just have gone somewhere else.
Maybe you should direct your aggression to the city council and their policy regarding public toilets and not a man who is doing his job

wylam

Just a reply to oink. I didnt react to his comments about his interpretation of the constitution , this rant came after i had already refused him entry.I actually engaged with the man in some what of a debate about the issue at hand.

@eyesight, yes we are in the city center and there are so many places within 100 yards of where i am that he could have used the toilets, abra, 2 mac donalds , kebab place not to mention at least 6 other pubs.who incidentally might have different door policies regarding the toilets.

gimmick

Fact is, you didn't allow someone use the toilet. I am glad you feel you have moral high ground on this. I think it is beyond contempt.

Good day.

wylam

@Gimmick , I love the way people on these forums can make comments like "you feel you have the moral high ground" and " i think its beyond contempt" statements that are clearly designed to draw me into some kind of slanging match and continue an off topic conversation about the rights and wrongs of the incident.But then like a petulant child say " good day" as if you yourself were starting your accent to the moral high ground , i await your arrival at the top.

Good day to you sir!!!!

who_me

I've heard a few people mentioning something similar about Irish law. Such as 'A man can't generally urinate in public, but it's perfectly legal if it's against a tree'. (Presumably, as it hides his rude bits). Sounds like an urban legend to me, but I've not read the constitution lately

To be honest, if I ran a restaurant or cafe in town, I'd generally refuse it too. Someone has to clean the toilets afterwards, and if there's one thing I learned in London this weekend is that the more people who use a toilet, the more vile and disgusting the hygiene becomes. And it's crucially important for any food establishment to have impeccable hygiene.

SusieBlue

Yeah, OP should definitely have left that rude, arrogant man in, screw his job, why should he follow his bosses instructions?
Surely allowing an ignorant man who wasn't going to give the premises any business is by FAR more important than the job OP needs to support himself?

@gimmick, would you go against your bosses orders on something for the sake of a customer who was being an absolute asshóle to you? Doubtful.

I always do as I'm told in work, I'm as helpful as I can be but noway would I risk bending the rules when it could potentially cost me my job and get me in trouble. Policies are put in place for a reason and as an employee it is not my position to question that.

I think OP was completely justified in his actions. People can't just go around demanding services without paying for them and expecting no flack for it. Its not on.

Ludo

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Yeah, OP should definitely have left that rude, arrogant man in, screw his job, why should he follow his bosses instructions?
Surely allowing an ignorant man who wasn't going to give the premises any business is by FAR more important than the job OP needs to support himself?

@gimmick, would you go against your bosses orders on something for the sake of a customer who was being an absolute asshóle to you? Doubtful.

I always do as I'm told in work, I'm as helpful as I can be but noway would I risk bending the rules when it could potentially cost me my job and get me in trouble. Policies are put in place for a reason and as an employee it is not my position to question that.

I think OP was completely justified in his actions. People can't just go around demanding services without paying for them and expecting no flack for it. Its not on.

The fact he was an arsehole is irrelevant to the refusal of permission to use the toilet. He only became an arsehole after permission was denied.

SusieBlue

Ludo wrote: »

The fact he was an arsehole is irrelevant to the refusal of permission to use the toilet. He only became an arsehole after permission was denied.

OP was following the policy of the premises, he doesn't make the rules. That man could have gone either way with it, he could have walked away or he could have caused trouble. He caused trouble. There was no need for it imo.

wylam

The man didn't cause trouble, from what we are used to dealing with on a Friday or Saturday night what he did was little more than provide me with a bit of banter and left me pondering whether he was correct about the constitution or not. As i stated previously there are many places nearby one's which he had actually walked past to get to my door which would probably have no problem leaving him in to the toilet.In my opinion the only reason he stopped at all, was because he saw the very visible signage on the door behind me and he wanted to regale me with his fictional version of the constitution.He was not violent , threatening or abusive in anyway to me but unfortunately my hands were tied on the issue as far as letting him in.

Does this make me a bad person, in my own opinion no it doesn't but some other people seem to take issue with things just for the sake of taking issue it's human nature.At this point anytime someone puts up a post relating to door work or "bouncer " work there is always people with underlying issue's related to that type of work that they disagree with, so whether i refused him for wanting the toilet or he was too drunk or his dress code was improper or he was threatening is irrelevant to these people who will argue the opposite point anyway.And when they receive proper, calm, concise, informative and honest answers they will resort to harsh comments and broad labeling and even name calling, in an effort to extract the kind of response that will show me up to be the belligerent, egotistical, failed mma psychopath, steroid taking, power tripping little jobsworth that they believe i am.Most thread's relating to door persons will end in this fashion it's sad really, but just gives normal reasonable people a glimpse into the rubbish we have to deal with every time we go to work.

@Gimmick, the jobsworth jibe at the end is not directed at the comments you made earlier, but it does seem like a very good word to describe the opinions people have about door staff.Thank you for bring it to my attention.All of the other words and phrases i used have been leveled at me in other posts i have either started or contributed to.

wylam

The man didn't cause trouble, from what we are used to dealing with on a Friday or Saturday night what he did was little more than provide me with a bit of banter and left me pondering whether he was correct about the constitution or not. As i stated previously there are many places nearby one's which he had actually walked past to get to my door which would probably have no problem leaving him in to the toilet.In my opinion the only reason he stopped at all, was because he saw the very visible signage on the door behind me and he wanted to regale me with his fictional version of the constitution.He was not violent , threatening or abusive in anyway to me but unfortunately my hands were tied on the issue as far as letting him in.

Does this make me a bad person, in my own opinion no it doesn't but some other people seem to take issue with things just for the sake of taking issue it's human nature.At this point anytime someone puts up a post relating to door work or "bouncer " work there is always people with underlying issue's related to that type of work that they disagree with, so whether i refused him for wanting the toilet or he was too drunk or his dress code was improper or he was threatening is irrelevant to these people who will argue the opposite point anyway.And when they receive proper, calm, concise, informative and honest answers they will resort to harsh comments and broad labeling and even name calling, in an effort to extract the kind of response that will show me up to be the belligerent, egotistical, failed mma psychopath, steroid taking, power tripping little jobsworth that they believe i am.Most thread's relating to door persons will end in this fashion it's sad really, but just gives normal reasonable people a glimpse into the rubbish we have to deal with every time we go to work.

@Gimmick, the jobsworth jibe at the end is not directed at the comments you made earlier, but it does seem like a very good word to describe the opinions people have about door staff.Thank you for bring it to my attention.All of the other words and phrases i used have been leveled at me in other posts i have either started or contributed to.

animum

I have always heard that a woman can urinate in public and a man cannot, I also heard it was a garda hat was to be used as to not litter the streets! Ha!! Urban myth I do imagine, this man clearly heard the same as me!

When I was toilet training my little boy, I was very surprised that alot of major shops in cork city wouldn't let me use the toilets, even when I explained it was training him! When I was pregnant there was no problem at all!

wylam

@animum, i have small children myself and know that when they need the toilet they need it now.An earlier poster asked if a mother and child walked up and asked to use the toilet would i let them in?The answer would be no because of the time of night and the legalities involved, but i myself would not be walking around the city at 10pm a night with any of my children.I do not know the exact policy regarding letting pregnant women use the toilets as its never come up before, but i will get confirmation from my boss before i comment on it.I would presume that there would be an exception made for pregnant women as it is extenuating circumstances not just some random guy who cant wait till he gets home.