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Child Item

Toilets for non paying customers.

wylam

Hi guys, sorry the title is wrong,{ Toilets for customer use only }

Can anyone out there clarify this for me please.
A man walked up to the door where i work and asked could he use the toilet, there were 3 sign's behind me, 1 on my left and 1 on my right that stated, (toilets are for customer use only)When i informed him that the management do not allow non customer to use the toilets he told me that it was against the law for me to refuse him.He said that it states in the irish constitution that no man,woman or child can be refused the use of a toilet. He said anyone has the right to walk up to the door of your house and "demand" the use of your toilet facilities.

He proceeded to say that it is not illegal for women to urinate in public but it is for a man and if you decide to drop your shorts and take a dump in the street any gardai that see you must remove their coat and shield you from the view of the public.So can any one shed any light on what is the letter of the law regarding the constitution on these statements? or was it just waffle to blag his way into the premises.

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Ludo

Moral of the story looks like it is better to be dishonest and not ask permission. Nice.

sok2005

What if it was a mother with her child that needed to use the facilities? I really wonder what happened to common sense and courtesy sometimes. Céad Míle Fáilte and all that.

Stark

I'm guessing they ask nicely?

wylam

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

@cantdecide, The security industry in Ireland is now very hard industry to work in, every thing is scrutinised and the slightest bending or breaking of any rules of the establishment will most lightly lead to your contract not being renewed.On your second post there were no hostilities at all the man asked could he use the toilet , i explained the company policy in a polite manner and then he explained his version of the constitution.He left in the same humor he walked up to me in.

@Ludo, no one said be dishonest, what i said was if he had said nothing he could have just walked past me.But soon as he asked i had to refuse.Imo the only reason he asked was because he saw the signs.

@sok2005, As i said we start work at 8pm , i was approached sometime around 10pm.If a mother and child approached me at the same time then i would have to refuse, as it is against the law for anyone under the age of 18 to be on a licensed premises after 9pm.The pub could face large fines or closure.

I like the way threads start off with people answering the original question but then get lost and branch off , its fun to watch.I welcome anymore comments or questions people have.

Curly Judge

wylam wrote: »

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

@cantdecide, The security industry in Ireland is now very hard industry to work in, every thing is scrutinised and the slightest bending or breaking of any rules of the establishment will most lightly lead to your contract not being renewed.On your second post there were no hostilities at all the man asked could he use the toilet , i explained the company policy in a polite manner and then he explained his version of the constitution.He left in the same humor he walked up to me in.

@Ludo, no one said be dishonest, what i said was if he had said nothing he could have just walked past me.But soon as he asked i had to refuse.Imo the only reason he asked was because he saw the signs.

@sok2005, As i said we start work at 8pm , i was approached sometime around 10pm.If a mother and child approached me at the same time then i would have to refuse, as it is against the law for anyone under the age of 18 to be on a licensed premises after 9pm.The pub could face large fines or closure.

I like the way threads start off with people answering the original question but then get lost and branch off , its fun to watch.I welcome anymore comments or questions people have.

My modus operandi is to enter a pub and ask politely if I may use the loo.
I have never been refused!
On the way out I express my thanks to the barman/woman and slap a one euro [or if I'm feeling flush, two euro] coin on the counter saying, "That's for your favourite charity".
It's then up to them what they do with it.
Hand driers use electricity and toilet use water and someone has to keep the place clean!
Everyone has to live!

gimmick

wylam wrote: »

Wow lots of points to reply to.

@Gimmick, is it not one of the post rules on boards "attack the post not the poster"?And the man didn't seem to be caught short at all seing as he spent 20mins standing out side lecturing me on the constitution.I don't know what job you do but when my boss gives me an instruction I carry it out.As for you second statement "if a fella came in asking to use the toilet,the answer was always ok "Surely if he was already in the pub he would just walk to the toilet , i cant see why he would come to the counter and ask?

So you blindly follow your boss' instructions? Grand. You may not be a jobsworth, but those are the actions of a jobsworth.

Re the other bit, I have on many occasions asked could I use the facilities as a non customer. Its only polite. I have never been refused.

Oink

I don't think this is strictly about toilets.

A man walks into an office/shop, and starts talking about toilets and constitution, about dumping one in a guard's hat, and so on and so forth. If that was me, I wouldn't want him to come anywhere near me. I would want him to walk out the door and take his issues with him.

I think OP reacted against unrational behaviour, not necessarily against a man who simply needed a toilet.

wylam

My original post was asking whether he was correct in the statements made.It has been turned some what now into whether i was right or i was wrong to refuse him.

@Gimmick. A jobs worth is a person who uses their job description in a deliberately uncooperative way, or who delights in acting in an obstructive manner. I cooperated with this man to the best of my ability as i explained the companies policies regarding the use of the toilets by non customers.At no time did i delight in telling this man he could not use the facilities and i was very sympathetic to his plight.

To say that i "Blindly follow follow my boss' orders" is yet another rash statement. My job is to observe and control entry in and out of a premises.Each premises has different rules laid down by the owner/manager that we need to follow this is how a "proper premises" is run. Since I started on this door we have had 3 incidents in 2 and a half years.Other pubs/ clubs around the city could have 3 incidents a night. Our door staff are friendly and welcoming to customers at all times and deal with all incidents and queries in a polite manner. This is all to ensure that the paying customers already inside have a good night with no problems.If me following my boss's instructions ensures a good night for the people who pay my wages then i will follow them.Incidentally my full time job is a steel fabricator where i work on steel work using drawings that are accurate to +/- 1mm.Also in that job if i'm giving an instruction by my boss i tend to follow it, strange isn't it?

EyeSight

gimmick wrote: »

So you blindly follow your boss' instructions? Grand. You may not be a jobsworth, but those are the actions of a jobsworth.

Re the other bit, I have on many occasions asked could I use the facilities as a non customer. Its only polite. I have never been refused.

You are being very unfair. This man has a job to do, he must do as his boss tells him, as in every job. Why should he risk getting in trouble for this guy? He has a job he wants and probably needs to keep.

It would be fairly poor to refuse him use of the toilets if it was the only establishment around. But i assume this was in the city or a town where the man could just have gone somewhere else.
Maybe you should direct your aggression to the city council and their policy regarding public toilets and not a man who is doing his job

wylam

Just a reply to oink. I didnt react to his comments about his interpretation of the constitution , this rant came after i had already refused him entry.I actually engaged with the man in some what of a debate about the issue at hand.

@eyesight, yes we are in the city center and there are so many places within 100 yards of where i am that he could have used the toilets, abra, 2 mac donalds , kebab place not to mention at least 6 other pubs.who incidentally might have different door policies regarding the toilets.

gimmick

Fact is, you didn't allow someone use the toilet. I am glad you feel you have moral high ground on this. I think it is beyond contempt.

Good day.

wylam

@Gimmick , I love the way people on these forums can make comments like "you feel you have the moral high ground" and " i think its beyond contempt" statements that are clearly designed to draw me into some kind of slanging match and continue an off topic conversation about the rights and wrongs of the incident.But then like a petulant child say " good day" as if you yourself were starting your accent to the moral high ground , i await your arrival at the top.

Good day to you sir!!!!

who_me

I've heard a few people mentioning something similar about Irish law. Such as 'A man can't generally urinate in public, but it's perfectly legal if it's against a tree'. (Presumably, as it hides his rude bits). Sounds like an urban legend to me, but I've not read the constitution lately

To be honest, if I ran a restaurant or cafe in town, I'd generally refuse it too. Someone has to clean the toilets afterwards, and if there's one thing I learned in London this weekend is that the more people who use a toilet, the more vile and disgusting the hygiene becomes. And it's crucially important for any food establishment to have impeccable hygiene.

SusieBlue

Yeah, OP should definitely have left that rude, arrogant man in, screw his job, why should he follow his bosses instructions?
Surely allowing an ignorant man who wasn't going to give the premises any business is by FAR more important than the job OP needs to support himself?

@gimmick, would you go against your bosses orders on something for the sake of a customer who was being an absolute asshóle to you? Doubtful.

I always do as I'm told in work, I'm as helpful as I can be but noway would I risk bending the rules when it could potentially cost me my job and get me in trouble. Policies are put in place for a reason and as an employee it is not my position to question that.

I think OP was completely justified in his actions. People can't just go around demanding services without paying for them and expecting no flack for it. Its not on.

Ludo

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Yeah, OP should definitely have left that rude, arrogant man in, screw his job, why should he follow his bosses instructions?
Surely allowing an ignorant man who wasn't going to give the premises any business is by FAR more important than the job OP needs to support himself?

@gimmick, would you go against your bosses orders on something for the sake of a customer who was being an absolute asshóle to you? Doubtful.

I always do as I'm told in work, I'm as helpful as I can be but noway would I risk bending the rules when it could potentially cost me my job and get me in trouble. Policies are put in place for a reason and as an employee it is not my position to question that.

I think OP was completely justified in his actions. People can't just go around demanding services without paying for them and expecting no flack for it. Its not on.

The fact he was an arsehole is irrelevant to the refusal of permission to use the toilet. He only became an arsehole after permission was denied.

SusieBlue

Ludo wrote: »

The fact he was an arsehole is irrelevant to the refusal of permission to use the toilet. He only became an arsehole after permission was denied.

OP was following the policy of the premises, he doesn't make the rules. That man could have gone either way with it, he could have walked away or he could have caused trouble. He caused trouble. There was no need for it imo.

wylam

The man didn't cause trouble, from what we are used to dealing with on a Friday or Saturday night what he did was little more than provide me with a bit of banter and left me pondering whether he was correct about the constitution or not. As i stated previously there are many places nearby one's which he had actually walked past to get to my door which would probably have no problem leaving him in to the toilet.In my opinion the only reason he stopped at all, was because he saw the very visible signage on the door behind me and he wanted to regale me with his fictional version of the constitution.He was not violent , threatening or abusive in anyway to me but unfortunately my hands were tied on the issue as far as letting him in.

Does this make me a bad person, in my own opinion no it doesn't but some other people seem to take issue with things just for the sake of taking issue it's human nature.At this point anytime someone puts up a post relating to door work or "bouncer " work there is always people with underlying issue's related to that type of work that they disagree with, so whether i refused him for wanting the toilet or he was too drunk or his dress code was improper or he was threatening is irrelevant to these people who will argue the opposite point anyway.And when they receive proper, calm, concise, informative and honest answers they will resort to harsh comments and broad labeling and even name calling, in an effort to extract the kind of response that will show me up to be the belligerent, egotistical, failed mma psychopath, steroid taking, power tripping little jobsworth that they believe i am.Most thread's relating to door persons will end in this fashion it's sad really, but just gives normal reasonable people a glimpse into the rubbish we have to deal with every time we go to work.

@Gimmick, the jobsworth jibe at the end is not directed at the comments you made earlier, but it does seem like a very good word to describe the opinions people have about door staff.Thank you for bring it to my attention.All of the other words and phrases i used have been leveled at me in other posts i have either started or contributed to.

wylam

animum

I have always heard that a woman can urinate in public and a man cannot, I also heard it was a garda hat was to be used as to not litter the streets! Ha!! Urban myth I do imagine, this man clearly heard the same as me!

When I was toilet training my little boy, I was very surprised that alot of major shops in cork city wouldn't let me use the toilets, even when I explained it was training him! When I was pregnant there was no problem at all!

wylam

@animum, i have small children myself and know that when they need the toilet they need it now.An earlier poster asked if a mother and child walked up and asked to use the toilet would i let them in?The answer would be no because of the time of night and the legalities involved, but i myself would not be walking around the city at 10pm a night with any of my children.I do not know the exact policy regarding letting pregnant women use the toilets as its never come up before, but i will get confirmation from my boss before i comment on it.I would presume that there would be an exception made for pregnant women as it is extenuating circumstances not just some random guy who cant wait till he gets home.

animum

This would have been by day in shops, I even said that a shop attendant could come with us incase toilet was near storage area or something, but was told no! I was just noting it as it was the topic of conversation!You don't need to check with boss and comment on pregnancy issue? :-)

I always thought it was insurance if someone fell in the back of the shop and tried to claim!

I was keeping it general, not just pubs!

wylam

Yeah i understood where you were coming from in regards to your post.I will check with my boss just so that i am sure of the policy regarding pregnant women, in case one might turn up at my door sometime asking to use the loo.Just so i can avoid another thread which would start with " so a pregnant lady walked up to my door last night" the critic's would have a field day. lol.

animum

''so a pregnant lady walked up to my door last night'' sounds like the start of a good joke! :-)

Nonoperational

To be honest any time anyone starts rabbiting on about the constitution and they are entitled to this that and the other thing I completely zone out. Clowns.

EyeSight

animum wrote: »

I have always heard that a woman can urinate in public and a man cannot, I also heard it was a garda hat was to be used as to not litter the streets! Ha!! Urban myth I do imagine, this man clearly heard the same as me!

When I was toilet training my little boy, I was very surprised that alot of major shops in cork city wouldn't let me use the toilets, even when I explained it was training him! When I was pregnant there was no problem at all!

It is expected that pregnant woman can bypass the customer only rule but i don't think toilet training children counts.
To me, a child being toilet trained may "miss" and i am sure you would clean that up, but trust me, a lot of parents won't.
IMO you can ask, if they say yes, great. If not, don't give them hassle. Maybe protest if you know you're speaking to the owner. In the city there are a lot of places that offer free toilet facilities. There are some places where you can pay a few cent to use the toilet or you could be a customer somewhere

Let me stress that you should not vent anger at employees doing their job. Vent your anger to the city council on their policy regarding public toilets

carly_86

Wat about in a bookies should the staff let the customer use the toilet

minidazzler

carly_86 wrote: »

Wat about in a bookies should the staff let the customer use the toilet

Generally the toilet in a bookies is in the back area, so no, unless the toilet door is outside of the office area of the bookies it shouldn't be used, they hold too much money.

carly_86

minidazzler wrote: »

Generally the toilet in a bookies is in the back area, so no, unless the toilet door is outside of the office area of the bookies it shouldn't be used, they hold too much money.

It is outside the counter but they closed it off cause people kept makin a mess only the staff use it

EyeSight

carly_86 wrote: »

It is outside the counter but they closed it off cause people kept makin a mess only the staff use it

by law they only have to provide toilets if they sell food or drink.
You don't like it, you need to find another bookie