Declan Kidney's contract not being renewed *warning post 1*

CatFromHue

Fits Morris wrote: »

and in the back line - Halfpenny, Byrne, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, North, Hook, Williams, Walker.

Whereas we have Earls and McFadden.

That's not the full story.

Wales
10: Priestland, Biggar, Hook
Centre: Roberts, Davies, Scott Williams
Wing: Cuthbert, North, Walker
15: Halfpenny, Byrne

Ireland
10: Sexton, Madigan, Jackson
Centre: D'arcy, BOD, Marshall
Wing: Bowe, Gilroy, Zebo, Trimble, Fitzgerald
15: Kearney

It's much of a muchness if you ask me.

Fits Morris

Piliger wrote: »

All very average international players. Our players are easily as good.

So you're saying that all Ireland's backs are very average international players?

Piliger

CatFromHue wrote: »

That's not the full story.

Wales
10: Priestland, Biggar, Hook
Centre: Roberts, Davies, Scott Williams
Wing: Cuthbert, North, Walker
15: Halfpenny, Byrne

Ireland
10: Sexton, Madigan, Jackson
Centre: D'arcy, BOD, Marshall
Wing: Bowe, Gilroy, Zebo, Trimble, Fitzgerald
15: Kearney

It's much of a muchness if you ask me.

Sexton is streets ahead - and Madigan as good as anything they have. BOD and D'Arcy are better than any of their centres. Bowe better than any of their wingers. Kearney better than any of their fullbacks.

awec

Fits Morris wrote: »

So you're saying that all Ireland's backs are very average international players?

I think he's saying that the welsh players are not as good as you are making them out to be.

the baby bull elephant

Fits Morris wrote: »

They're also have better depth at back row - Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Jones, Lydiate, Shingler.

and in the back line - Halfpenny, Byrne, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, North, Hook, Williams, Walker.

Whereas we have Earls and McFadden.

Shingler is awful. Warburton has had two good games in the last year.
Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, PO'M, Henderson, McLaughlin stand up pretty well to that they have better depth at 7 but ours is better at 6. About even at 8 we're probably a bit ahead.

A whole backline isn't exactly what I was thinking more actual units. But if you want to name random backs: O'Driscoll, Sexton, Kearney, Bowe, Marshall, Zebo, Giloy, Cave etc. are better.

What exactly is so bad about McFadden? Hook has done nothing to deserve the praise he gets from some quarters and Williams is yet another centre who can't pass a basic skill for centres and something Welsh fans regualary complain about.

Btw yep I watch a lot of rugby from all over the place. What has Sheridan done that puts him ahead of Healy?

awec

I actually think we have a pool of players who are capable of challenging for Grand Slams regularly and who should be able to mount a considerable challenge in the World Cup.

I feel with good management this is achievable.

All too easy to hide behind a veil of self-deprecation to try and justify continual under achieving rubbish.

Fits Morris

awec wrote: »

I think he's saying that the welsh players are not as good as you are making them out to be.

But I don't have to make anything out - the Welsh players have proved they are better than their Irish equivalents by winning a Grand Slam and a championship and reaching a World Cup semi-final in the last 18 months.

Opinions are opinions, results at international level - where it matters - are proof, and no amount of cheerleading the quality of Irish players over their Welsh equivalents changes that.

trouttrout

Fits Morris wrote: »

But I don't have to make anything out - the Welsh players have proved they are better than their Irish equivalents by winning a Grand Slam and a championship and reaching a World Cup semi-final in the last 18 months.

Opinions are opinions, results at international level - where it matters - are proof, and no amount of cheerleading the quality of Irish players over their Welsh equivalents changes that.

So by your logic Italy are better than France too?

thomond2006

Fits Morris wrote: »

I'd also have Sheridan ahead of Healy for the Lions.

Gatty has said he won't bring players involved in the Top14 that clashes with the Barbarians match. Toulon will be in the semi so that will rule out both Sheridan and Jenkins.

Fits Morris

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Warburton has had two good games in the last year.

Two more than many Irish players have had in the last year.

thomond2006

Fits Morris wrote: »

Two more than many Irish players have had in the last year.

wow you need to lay off those hyperbole pills!

Fits Morris

trouttrout wrote: »

So by your logic Italy are better than France too?

You're comparing a one-off match to consistent achievement at the highest level?

Fits Morris

thomond2006 wrote: »

wow you need to lay off those hyperbole pills!

I wouldn't say it's too hyperbolic when ypu think about it. Kearney, Heaslip and Best have had very poor seasons.

.ak

Fits Morris wrote: »

A Grand Slam, a championship and a World Cup semi-final.

Wales are a great, great team. But player per player the Irish players are generally better. One of the reasons most of the Welsh struggle at club level.

CatFromHue

Piliger wrote: »

Sexton is streets ahead - and Madigan as good as anything they have. BOD and D'Arcy are better than any of their centres. Bowe better than any of their wingers. Kearney better than any of their fullbacks.

I thought we were talking about depth of players?

Yeah Sexton is ahead of theirs.

Wouldn't agree with the rest of your post though. D'arcy has been very average internationally the last few seasons, North is a great player who I'd love to have for Ireland, and Halfpenny is an excellent and my choice as starting 15 for the Lions.

the baby bull elephant

Fits Morris wrote: »

Two more than many Irish players have had in the last year.

Wow you're right the likes of Healy, SO'B, Sexton, Gilroy and Zebo haven't even had two good games this past year.http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.png

awec

Fits Morris wrote: »

But I don't have to make anything out - the Welsh players have proved they are better than their Irish equivalents by winning a Grand Slam and a championship and reaching a World Cup semi-final in the last 18 months.

Opinions are opinions, results at international level - where it matters - are proof, and no amount of cheerleading the quality of Irish players over their Welsh equivalents changes that.

Or maybe Wales have proved that having a head coach capable of getting results from his players will see you win Grand Slams and go far in World Cups?

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Or maybe Wales have proved that having a head coach capable of getting results from his players will see you win Grand Slams and go far in World Cups?

Too simplistic.

The Welsh defence is really excellent which is Shaun Edwards job. Their defence is a big part of their recent success.

Swiwi

Fits Morris wrote: »

Two more than many Irish players have had in the last year.

I ask this genuinely, but do you have anything positive to say about the Irish team, or Irish players? I don't think I have ever read a positive post from you, hence why I mistook you (apparently) for being English.

It's a free world, so of course you're welcome to constantly criticise your countryman if it rocks your boat, but I'd say the lads could do with a bit of support, especially when the new coach takes over.

Just my 2c.

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

Too simplistic.

The Welsh defence is really excellent which is Shaun Edwards job. Their defence is a big part of their recent success.

What I'm saying is a good head coach will make the difference, winning grand slams is not an indication of better players necessarily.

Piliger

awec wrote: »

What I'm saying is a good head coach will make the difference, winning grand slams is not an indication of better players necessarily.

Exactly - look at the enormous difference a manager makes in soccer. ANY team of sportsmen responds to their manager in a positive or negative way. An inspirational, empowering, motivating manager can change a teams performances to a huge extent. This is reflected in rugby as much as any other sport, and the great Irish players we have in the team have been so deeply let down by Kidney in this regard. May of them are good enough and should be travelling with the Lions, but won't be because the team's performances were so dire.

CatFromHue

Piliger wrote: »

May of them are good enough and should be travelling with the Lions, but won't be because the team's performances were so dire.

Not sure about that. The guys who you could say have played themselves off a Lions tour have done so through their own poor form.

I'm not sure who you mean to be honest?

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

What I'm saying is a good head coach will make the difference, winning grand slams is not an indication of better players necessarily.

Yeah that's a fair point.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

I thought we were talking about depth of players?

Yeah Sexton is ahead of theirs.

Wouldn't agree with the rest of your post though. D'arcy has been very average internationally the last few seasons, North is a great player who I'd love to have for Ireland, and Halfpenny is an excellent and my choice as starting 15 for the Lions.

D'Arcy played just two games this 6N. He's been excellent in the games he's played. We missed him badly when he was out. So have Leinster; it's no coincidence that Leinster have started scoring tries again with D'Arcy back, Madigan alluded to it in his post match interview last night.

CatFromHue

Yeah D'arcy's been good for Leinster but I've thought for the last couple of seasons he's really struggled to make much of an impact at international level.

The things that he used to be so good at like taking the ball into contact and driving on for a few meters and his defence have waned over the last few years. I'm not sure how Kidney or the management can be faulted for this. He's the one who has been missing tackles (only a few but still noticeable) and he's the one who hasn't made much ground in contact.

Kayless

Fits Morris wrote: »

But I don't have to make anything out - the Welsh players have proved they are better than their Irish equivalents by winning a Grand Slam and a championship and reaching a World Cup semi-final in the last 18 months.

Opinions are opinions, results at international level - where it matters - are proof, and no amount of cheerleading the quality of Irish players over their Welsh equivalents changes that.

Fair enough, proof? Leinster have won the HC two years in a row, how many have the Welsh regions won this in last few years?

Ireland put 30pts on Wales at home and don't give me this line about injury's we had some of our own

The only way to truly test your theory is the 2014 6 nations when both Wales and Ireland have good coaches, also lets remember that Wales won this years 6 nations and Ireland were the only team to beat them, so with a level playing field next year we will see

Piliger

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah D'arcy's been good for Leinster but I've thought for the last couple of seasons he's really struggled to make much of an impact at international level.

The things that he used to be so good at like taking the ball into contact and driving on for a few meters and his defence have waned over the last few years. I'm not sure how Kidney or the management can be faulted for this. He's the one who has been missing tackles (only a few but still noticeable) and he's the one who hasn't made much ground in contact.

Further evidence of Kidney's abject failure. Players with no game plan, no motivation, no inspiration, no empowerment, no confidence ... will inevitably deliver poor performances and fail to 'make an impact'. That will apply to ANY player in the world from D'Arcy to BOD to Dan Carter to anyone.

CatFromHue

D'arcy isn't the player that he was but that's nothing to do with Kidney if you ask me. You can scape goat Kidney if you want but you'll just be making excuses for D'arcy.

D'arcy's been good for Leinster but not as good as he used to be, is that Schmidt's fault? No.

nerd69

Kayless wrote: »

Fair enough, proof? Leinster have won the HC two years in a row, how many have the Welsh regions won this in last few years?

Ireland put 30pts on Wales at home and don't give me this line about injury's we had some of our own

The only way to truly test your theory is the 2014 6 nations when both Wales and Ireland have good coaches, also lets remember that Wales won this years 6 nations and Ireland were the only team to beat them, so with a level playing field next year we will see

A lot of the welsh players don't play for the welsh regions

CatFromHue

In fairness the vast majority of this years 6N team do play in Wales. Gethin Jenkins was the only starter who didn't and James Hook was on the bench too but I think that's it!