Is it possible.

One shot on kill

I went for a quick shot the last bank holiday. And shot about 20 rounds .22cal.

Shot very very well (for me) and got the bug back. So I headed down today gots loads of ammo and said I'm gonna have the crack.

I was all over the place couldn't hit anything couldn't get tight groups not like the last day anyway. The only thing I done was clean the rifle since the first day.

What's happening when I clean the gun.

I fired 3 different types of ammo today but when I fired the subs I could actually see the round going through the air in the scope. Has anyone ever seen this before or am I gone nuts.

Leupold

You can often see the round going through the air, It depends on the light angle. What usually surprises, even if you have seen it before, is the trajectory. Seeing the bullet rise above and then fall onto the target is the best ever lesson in external ballistics

Cass

Some rimfires prefer to fire dirty. I know mine does. After a cleaning it takes between 20-40 rounds to get her back to the level it was before i cleaned it.

Also the same ammo may not be the exact same. Different batches can work differently. For example i used to use Match ammo in my target rifle. Depending on batch/speed the rifle would either be a laser or a shotgun.

Don't forget that it's a .22lr. Slight winds can affect it over any distance.

One shot on kill

Don't forget that it's a .22lr. Slight winds can affect it over any distance.[/QUOTE]



It was windy alright but it's a small enough range 50meters and its only 10-12 lanes wide with good high banks both sides. Would the wind swirl in the range as some shots were good and some groups were tight.

The first day I was out one click and I was on target 1inch high but windage was fine. Today I was easyly 2 inchs to the left today. One click back made no differsnce.

So I went home I decided not to do to much messing because I wasn't comfortable today neck was sore and just couldn't get comfortable.

I do think mine like to fire dirty alright but I Easley put 75-100 shots down it today.

Cass

Have you ever seen the BR range at the midlands. It has 9 ft high solid walls either side. The wind comes from the back (over the shelter), from the front (over the berm), and then from either side. The wind, once over these, can swirl, twist, and turn.

I've had three winds flags out and none of them pointing the same direction. Also anythig over 12mph will shift the bullet up to 1/2".

As for the movement with your scope. Most scopes are 1 click for 1/4" movement at 100 yards. So roughly speaking it's 1/8" (3mm) at 50. That's even if it moves that much. If you were 2 inches out you would need to turn it between 14-16 clicks at 50 meters/yards.


Lastly it does no harm to check your rifle once a month. Just check screws, mounts, rings, etc that everything is tight, and nothing has moved. Also that the scope does not get a bang or worse someone plays with your turrets.

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

Some rimfires prefer to fire dirty. I know mine does. After a cleaning it takes between 20-40 rounds to get her back to the level it was before i cleaned it.

It also depends on how exactly you clean it. DURC's Walther KK200 used to take quite a bit of shooting to get it back in (20-30 rounds) until I started using a tiny amount of grease after cleaning. Literally a small smear and then another clean patch to remove what I put in. When I did that it only took 2-3 rounds to come back to shooting well.

One shot on kill

Cass wrote: »

Have you ever seen the BR range at the midlands. It has 9 ft high solid walls either side. The wind comes from the back (over the shelter), from the front (over the berm), and then from either side. The wind, once over these, can swirl, twist, and turn.

I've had three winds flags out and none of them pointing the same direction. Also anythig over 12mph will shift the bullet up to 1/2".

As for the movement with your scope. Most scopes are 1 click for 1/4" movement at 100 yards. So roughly speaking it's 1/8" (3mm) at 50. That's even if it moves that much. If you were 2 inches out you would need to turn it between 14-16 clicks at 50 meters/yards.


Lastly it does no harm to check your rifle once a month. Just check screws, mounts, rings, etc that everything is tight, and nothing has moved. Also that the scope does not get a bang or worse someone plays with your turrets.

14-16 clicks just bair with me here so at 100 its 1 click per quarter of an inch so as I move the target back to me the angle (MOA) gets smaller so the adjustment changes. I take it half the 100 meters will half the 1/4 MOA on the scope.

So when you take a shot does windage or can windage change over distance or is it more margin because the round travels longer before hitting the paper. So tecniqualy the windage is the same but the further out you zero windage the more accurate it will be. Obviously in a perfect world were we can remove the elements of wind etc etc.

So it's possible the wind was messing with the flight path of the round today. Is 12mph a strong wind in regards shooting.

One shot on kill

IRLConor wrote: »

It also depends on how exactly you clean it. DURC's Walther KK200 used to take quite a bit of shooting to get it back in (20-30 rounds) until I started using a tiny amount of grease after cleaning. Literally a small smear and then another clean patch to remove what I put in. When I did that it only took 2-3 rounds to come back to shooting well.

The tiniest bit pulled down the barrel.

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

14-16 clicks just bair with me here so at 100 its 1 click per quarter of an inch so as I move the target back to me the angle (MOA) gets smaller so the adjustment changes. I take it half the 100 meters will half the 1/4 MOA on the scope.

Roughly - Yes.

So when you take a shot does windage or can windage change over distance or is it more margin because the round travels longer before hitting the paper.

The longer a bullet is in flight the more effect wind has on it. So even if the wind were to stay at a constant, say 10 mph, speed there will be a difference between how much the same bullet gets blown off at 50, 100, 150, 200, 300, etc. yards/metres.

So technically the windage is the same but the further out you zero windage the more accurate it will be.

Not really. It's hard to explain in words so bear with me.

Say i have a 200 yard zero in a 10 mph left to right wind. I know it's say 2" left with no windage so i adjust the necessary clicks to get a perfect zero.

Now i put up targets from 50 yards out to 200 yards every 50 yards. Then fire, with the 200 yard zero on, through all the targets. The bullet lands perfectly in the bull at 200 yards but creates an "arced" trajectory in the other targets. Meaning it could be 2" to the left at 50 yards, 1.5" left at 100, 0.75" at 150, and spot on at 200 yards.

I'm firing into the wind, and allowing the wind to blow the bullet back into the bull. In an ideal world the wind would be constant, but obviously that never happens. So i take a set of values, and use this as my base and then dial the scope or hold off based on those settings.

So i now know what my rifle/bullet will do in a 10 mph wind at 200 yards. If i'm out in a 5 mph wind and my target is at 200 yards i know to only allow half the drift. in a 15 mph allow 50% more. At shorter distance (say 100 yards) in a 10 mph wind i use half value as the wind is the same, but the bullet has less distance to be effected over.

I hope that is somewhat easy to understand. I'm not great at explaining things like this.

it's possible the wind was messing with the flight path of the round today. Is 12mph a strong wind in regards shooting.

For an air rifle or .22lr yes. It can make difference. I shot in 20+ mph wind and at 50 yards the bullet was between 1" - 1.125" of centre.

One shot on kill

Ye cass makes sense thanks I suppose the next thing to do is learn how to measure and judge wind and of back to the range with me

clivej

Well 12mph of wind at 50m will not 'Blow' the round off by 2" if it was zeroed as on the target before. As as you say there were side barms at the range to lessen the effect of that wind.

I would say that the scope got a knock, as it would only take a little movement to pull the POI (point of impact) away from the POA (point of aim)

One shot on kill

clivej wrote: »

Well 12mph of wind at 50m will not 'Blow' the round off by 2" if it was zeroed as on the target before. As as you say there were side barms at the range to lessen the effect of that wind.

I would say that the scope got a knock, as it would only take a little movement to pull the POI (point of impact) away from the POA (point of aim)

I also though it might of got a knock but honestly don't remember one. Are we talking about a good knock or is a small knock gonna knock it off aswell like just putting in and out of the locker.

clivej

One shot on kill wrote: »

I also though it might of got a knock but honestly don't remember one. Are we talking about a good knock or is a small knock gonna knock it off aswell like just putting in and out of the locker.

Well the way I see MOA is like this..............

If you remember the protractor from your school days that you used to measure angles and degrees then look at the 1 degree angle mark.

Now that 1 degree is sub-divided into 60 minutes, and your scopes clicks are equal to 1/4 of 1 of those 60 minutes, which equals to 15 seconds (60 seconds in 1 minute, and 60 minutes in 1 degree). 4 clicks on your scope equal 1 minute = 1MOA.

And 1 minute at 100y = 1 inch (as near as), 2" at 200y, and 3" at 300y ....... 10" at 1000y ....... so on, so on..........

So a very SMALL knock could have a very BIG change in POI.

Or if a scope screw on the mount is loose or the mount loose it will change the POI.

That' the way I see all this MOA lark. :D:D:D


ALSO.......

You don't say if it's still grouping OK but the POI has only moved 2", which is different to a group of 2" at 50m which would indicate something is loose with the scope, mounts etc.

One shot on kill

It's grouping ok I suppose they are a bit looser than normal. But haven said that I might get 2 flyers instead of one. But as I said I just couldn't get comfortable so I was putting the loose groups down to that.

Cass

clivej wrote: »

Well 12mph of wind at 50m will not 'Blow' the round off by 2" if it was zeroed as on the target before. As as you say there were side barms at the range to lessen the effect of that wind.

No it can't, but it will make some difference to point of impact. As i said above;

Cass wrote:

I shot in 20+ mph wind and at 50 yards the bullet was between 1" - 1.125" of centre.

So knowing that it cannot be blown (don't know why you have Blow in inverted commas) off by 2" i suggested;

Cass wrote:

Lastly it does no harm to check your rifle once a month. Just check screws, mounts, rings, etc that everything is tight, and nothing has moved. Also that the scope does not get a bang or worse someone plays with your turrets.

As for the berms. It might lessen the direct strength of the wind, but it will not completely eliminate the effect on a .22 bullet. Unless it is a completely sheltered range thw wind can effect drift (left & right), and have an effect on verticals. This can happen in a 12mph wind:

Cass wrote: »

I've had three winds flags out and none of them pointing the same direction. Also anything over 12mph will shift the bullet up to 1/2".

On shot one kill wrote:

Are we talking about a good knock or is a small knock gonna knock it off aswell like just putting in and out of the locker.

I have shimmed a few scopes and found, using 0.25mm shim, that it can move the POI between 1.25 - 3 inches depending on the caliber. So the smallest movement can have a large effect.

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

As for the berms. It might lessen the direct strength of the wind, but it will not completely eliminate the effect on a .22 bullet. Unless it is a completely sheltered range thw wind can effect drift (left & right), and have an effect on verticals.

Yup. Here's an example of a bad wind call I made yesterday:



The difference in wind was not obvious in the flags but it was enough to move me about 6 or 7 clicks over.

Even a very light gust can have a surprisingly large effect.

It wasn't me!

Yup, .22 bullets blow a scarily long way in the wind. I had one this weekend that blew a solid two inches in what didn't look like a lot of wind. Obviously it was more than showed on the flags, but it really doesn't take a lot to send it a really long distance. For example on the same target Conor posted above, I shaded upwind by about a full ring, so was aiming in the middle of the nine on the right, about where Conor's errant shot is, and landed in the seven ring downwind. Happened in training, thankfully, but made me very cagey about suspiciously benevolent wind flags. On a normal scope with 1/4 MOA adjustments, to move that two inches back would take sixteen clicks. On a typical modern diopter rearsight, it's about thirty.

Cass

I see in the CCI Stinger thread you mention that you use them almost exclusively. Never thought, throughout this thread, to ask what ammo you used.

The Stingers, as mentioned there, are supersonic rounds, and may not perform as well in you rifle. While you say you get touching groups, etc. i'm wondering have you ever tried subs in it. Something like Lapua, Eley, etc. The stingers are good, but can be inaccurate in most standard .22s to the point that they would not be as accurate as the subs.

If i were you i would try a few groups with subs (don't worry if your zero is different to that of the Stingers). Just shoot for group, and see if there is an improvement. If so you know the issue is with the ammo/rifle combo, and not anything you are doing.

One shot on kill

Ye I tryed the subs in it that day I tried the eley subs. To be honest I don't like subs that much. There are harder to hunt with or different differences and I find the stingers goes further and hits harder. In a hunting situation. I suppose its prob a bit easyer to group with subs but I don't really use them to much.

But on the day I used cci stingers, cci mini mags, and eley subs and they all actedd the same way loose groups and off to the left. I may try a load more I suppose I'd like to try the cci subs and see hat there like.

Cass

For hunting you only need "minute of bunny". For target you need constant, and accurate results. What i'd suggest is you record your zero for the stingers, and fro the subs, then use each round in the different types of shooting.


Also when you clean the rifle do you use a copper solvent? IOW is the rifle thoroughly cleaned. Stingers are copper plated so will leave a residue much like C/F ammo. Ordinary cleaning methods for lead based rounds will not suffice.

One shot on kill

Eh no ill oil and rod it till its clean and pull cloth down it to dry it oug and mop it.

Any tips.

Cass

Use Hoppes, KG12, M-Pro7 or some other copper solvent. Give the rifle a good clean with it.

If you find you are getting blue or green residue then there is copper fouling in your barrel. Carbon remover, oil, and scrubbing will not remove this. It's one of the drawbacks of using Stingers.

One shot on kill

Cheers cass thanks for that info

duckman!!

One shot on kill wrote: »

I'd like to try the cci subs and see hat there like.

cci subs are the best, the others dont even come close!!

my 10/22 had problems recycling the eley/ remi subs but
with the cci not 1 problem!!!

IRLConor

One shot on kill wrote: »

Ye I tryed the subs in it that day I tried the eley subs. To be honest I don't like subs that much. There are harder to hunt with or different differences and I find the stingers goes further and hits harder. In a hunting situation. I suppose its prob a bit easyer to group with subs but I don't really use them to much.

My impression, as a 100% target shooter, is that all the truly accurate .22 rounds are subsonic but that the supersonic rounds can give a few advantages for hunting (harder hitting, flatter, etc).

I don't know anyone who makes properly accurate supersonic ammo for .22. I think Federal used to make supersonic match ammo, but it's been a long time since they've been competitive. These days it's all Eley, Lapua, RWS and the few odds and ends of Olymp that people have hoarded.

If all you need is "minute of bunny" as Cass put it, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem though.