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Glasgow Warriors vs Munster, Friday 29 March 8:05pm; TG4/BBC ALBA

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    #482
    Swiwi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    If I was chasing a Kiwi centre who might be available, I would go for Andrew Horrell from the Chiefs...however, I'm kind of hoping he might get higher honours this year. Seriously under-rated player.


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    #483
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Murray is a good choice if you want to grind out a game, keep it tight. You want to get the backs moving, he's the wrong man. Too slow to rucks, too involved in trucking it up himself. There's a reason why he won't be on the Lions plane. Aided by a 10 who sits too deep and offers no threat. Put Reddan and Madigan in that team and watch them get the back line moving. If you can't see this, then Earls isn't the only one who lacks vision :p

    That's all a massive exaggeration. Murray has been perfectly quick enough for the majority of this season. You only have to look at him against Argentina to see that he's perfectly capable of playing a fast tempo game. He still has 2 or 3 moments in a game where he dithers but they're become less and less frequent

    ROG stood flatter than he's done in years for the last 3 Munster games he's played, but at the end of the day it's useless if we insist on crabbing across the field with no incision. There was no difference when Keatley went to ten, if anything we got worse . And while I think Keatley is a better player, if ROG had thrown that intercept pass at the end you'd have guys falling over themselves to stick the boot into him here


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    #484
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Murray is a good choice if you want to grind out a game, keep it tight. You want to get the backs moving, he's the wrong man. Too slow to rucks, too involved in trucking it up himself. There's a reason why he won't be on the Lions plane. Aided by a 10 who sits too deep and offers no threat. Put Reddan and Madigan in that team and watch them get the back line moving. If you can't see this, then Earls isn't the only one who lacks vision :p

    What happened against Argentina or against Wales?

    He certainly hasn't been too slow for Munster this seson either. Now that he and Sexton are more used to each other they seem far more cohesive and the ball is moving far quicker.

    If you were making this argument 12 months earlier it might be easier to understand.


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    #485
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    trouttrout wrote: »
    He certainly isn't this year. Whether it's his own poor form or gameplan that has him playing so badly but he certainly isn't undoubtedly a better 13. When Earls was fit and available LLL was warming the pine, and will again if Earls is fit for next weekend.

    Is there a chance Earls might be fit? I thought he was definitely out. It would be a huge bonus to have him back


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    #486
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    ed7890 wrote: »
    Is there a chance Earls might be fit? I thought he was definitely out. It would be a huge bonus to have him back

    Haven't heard tbh. I don't think we have a hope in hell without at least one of him or Zebo


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    #487
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    clsmooth wrote: »
    There's a difference between a once off and a consistent failing. Earls unfortunately suffers from the latter. BOD has proved over the past 13 years he can create for players. Do you think Zebo would have scored v Wales if Earls had been inside?

    Earls hasn't had the benefit that Brian O'Driscoll
    a) consistently playing in the centre internationally (most Earls has ever played there is 3 in a row in the 2012 6Ns). His last run in the centre went
    3 games at outside centre
    1 game fullback
    1 game inside centre
    1 game wing
    2 games outside centre
    3 game wing

    b) Brian O'Driscoll must have well over a 150 games with Gordon D'Arcy as his centre partner. Earls has had P. Wallace, Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden and Gordon D'Arcy as his centre partner (and so an average of about 3 games max with each of those).

    And yes, I do think its possible. Zebo scored a similar try against Northampton I think that is never mentioned.

    Worth bearing in mind that Zebo has a very decent try scoring record at club level with Earls as his outside centre (11 tries last season - 19 starts) compared to Andrew Trimble's 6 outside Cave in 17 starts last season.


    *I've used last season stats as Earls has been injured a lot this season.


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    #488
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    ed7890 wrote: »
    Williams had a good spell in the first half, even got himself a turnover. But he did a lot wrong, especially around the end of the first half, and the start of the second, around the time the game swung away from us. His kicking was terrible, put us under a lot of pressure. He gave away a soft penalty which moved the game back into our half.

    Do you mean his box kicking?

    There was one I thought he could have gotten more on but I didn't think his kicking was terrible.


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    #489
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    trouttrout wrote: »
    ROG stood flatter than he's done in years for the last 3 Munster games he's played, but at the end of the day it's useless if we insist on crabbing across the field with no incision. There was no difference when Keatley went to ten, if anything we got worse . And while I think Keatley is a better player, if ROG had thrown that intercept pass at the end you'd have guys falling over themselves to stick the boot into him here

    Ya that intercept was fairly bad. I still want Keatley in ahead of ROG though.

    ROG has been standing flatter, but he always just passes it along the line. That is directly contributing the the crabbing across the fields. Even in his short spell yesterday Keatley went for the break a couple of times and looked for the offload. He's much better at keeping defenses honest, and very good at exploiting space when it's available.


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    #490
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What happened against Argentina or against Wales?

    He certainly hasn't been too slow for Munster this seson either. Now that he and Sexton are more used to each other they seem far more cohesive and the ball is moving far quicker.

    If you were making this argument 12 months earlier it might be easier to understand.

    Even a broken clock will be right twice a day. We played for 50 mins against Wales and beat a tired and battered Argentinian team. What happened in all the other games? One and half games doesn't make a season.

    And Fishooks, there's no point in ROG standing flat if he doesn't threaten the gain line. The crabbing aside stems from slow ball and ROG shoveling it across.


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    #491
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I don't think Williams and ROG can be blamed too much for last nights result either. Granted Williams gave away an intercept try but the problems were elsewhere. I though they actually both well enough. Munster from starting strong and being very unlucky to be behind just fell apart in the last 20-25 mins when neither were on the pitch.

    Only got to see the 2nd half but for what of it he lasted Williams was very poor, nothing he did inspired confidence, sliced a box kick into touch, let the ball squirt out of a ruck almost leading to a Glasgow try. He's just not remotely near Pro 12 level.


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    #492
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Even a broken clock will be right twice a day. We played for 50 mins against Wales and beat a tired and battered Argentinian team. What happened in all the other games? One and half games doesn't make a season.

    And Fishooks, there's no point in ROG standing flat if he doesn't threaten the gain line. The crabbing aside stems from slow ball and ROG shoveling it across.

    He was MOTM against France and one of our best players against England

    You're just trotting out the usual "he's too slow" Murray line, and it simply doesn't hold any weight based on his season as a whole

    As for the ROG thing, he's not deserving of a start, but Dan Carter wouldn't make much of a difference at 10 with that gameplan. 10 simply isn't anywhere close to being Munsters biggest problem


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    #493
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    trouttrout wrote: »
    He was MOTM against France and one of our best players against England

    You're just trotting out the usual "he's too slow" Murray line, and it simply doesn't hold any weight based on his season as a whole

    You've just proved my point by quoting two grinding games where our back line didn't make a single meaningful attack


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    #494
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    clsmooth wrote: »
    Even a broken clock will be right twice a day. We played for 50 mins against Wales and beat a tired and battered Argentinian team. What happened in all the other games? One and half games doesn't make a season.

    Just ignoring all the Munster games?

    What happened in the other games? Well he won man of the match against France and did well in the other games, especially with all the pressure he took off Jackson. He was just particularly good against Waled and Argentina.

    I really don't see anything wrong with his form. He had a lot more responsibility in terms of managing possession when Sexton went down.

    Not to mention he was brilliant for Munster for most of the season, apart from the very first game against Racing. He more than justified his place for Ireland.


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    #495
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    trouttrout wrote: »
    He was MOTM against France and one of our best players against England

    You're just trotting out the usual "he's too slow" Murray line, and it simply doesn't hold any weight based on his season as a whole

    Along with POM?

    What happened in the England game to dismiss the idea he's too slow btw? Our attack was as bad as I've ever seen it, I have no idea how we were supposed to score points in that game.

    And he won MotM against France on the back of his box kicking. Furthermore there's no way he was the best player on the pitch, Picamoles was all day long but the Irish broadcaster is unlikely to give it to a French player.


    My overall opinion on him is he's a reasonable player but hopefully nothing more than a stopgap, a young talented player should be able to overtake him no problem. Unlike with Sexton for example Kidney backed him to the absolute hilt which helped him too. But I don't think he's a 70 or 80 cap player.


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    #496
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    clsmooth wrote: »
    You've just proved my point by quoting two grinding games where our back line didn't make a single meaningful attack

    And you think that's Conor Murray's fault?

    Not the fault of our awfully turgid backplay? Not the fault of the lack of front foot ball needed for quick attacking play because our pack are so predictable with ball in hand.

    You're just bluffing for the sake of it now


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    #497
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    How are Earls and Murray getting criticized on a match thread for a game they weren't even playing in?


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    #498
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    danthefan wrote: »
    Along with POM?

    What happened in the England game to dismiss the idea he's too slow btw? Our attack was as bad as I've ever seen it, I have no idea how we were supposed to score points in that game.

    And he won MotM against France on the back of his box kicking. Furthermore there's no way he was the best player on the pitch, Picamoles was all day long but the Irish broadcaster is unlikely to give it to a French player.


    My overall opinion on him is he's a reasonable player but hopefully nothing more than a stopgap, a young talented player should be able to overtake him no problem. Unlike with Sexton for example Kidney backed him to the absolute hilt which helped him too. But I don't think he's a 70 or 80 cap player.


    Danthefan in not rating Munster player shocker. The fact that you brought up POM out of the blue there says it all


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    #499
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    trouttrout wrote: »
    And you think that's Conor Murray's fault?

    Not the fault of our awfully turgid backplay? Not the fault of the lack of front foot ball needed for quick attacking play because our pack are so predictable with ball in hand.

    You're just bluffing for the sake of it now

    I said he was a good player for tight grinding type games, not getting the back line going. You said he was MOTM in two tight grinding games where we never got the back line going. And I'm bluffing? :confused:


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    #500
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    clsmooth wrote: »
    I said he was a good player for tight grinding type games, not getting the back line going. You said he was MOTM in two tight grinding games. And I'm bluffing? :confused:

    You're saying he's too slow to play a fast game. Which is simply not true. Anyway like Ed said he wasn't even playing last night and we're clearly not going to agree on him


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    #501
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    clsmooth wrote: »
    I said he was a good player for tight grinding type games, not getting the back line going. You said he was MOTM in two tight grinding games. And I'm bluffing? :confused:

    He was very good in two tight grinding games, right after being very good in two open free flowing games.


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    #502
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Someone please explain how he was very good against England?


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    #503
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    He was very good in two tight grinding games, right after being very good in two open free flowing games.

    So he should be a shoe in for the Lions then with this outstanding form and ability to get the backline moving with his speedy decisions? A slightly better version of TOL unfortunately who was also lauded for his kicking, defence and breaking. Lets see what Gatland thinks.


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    #504
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    danthefan wrote: »
    Someone please explain how he was very good against England?

    He carried well in the open channels and did well in the lineout. Its more than can be said for our captain, whose stupid penalties cost us the game. I assume you're one of the ones who use the Demented Mole's fabricated statistics to bash POM? :rolleyes:

    POM like most Munster players has to put in a flawless performance to gain any recognition from a large portion of fans, largely due to misdirected Kidney-hate.


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    #505
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    clsmooth wrote: »
    So he should be a shoe in for the Lions then with this outstanding form and ability to get the backline moving with his speedy decisions? A slightly better version of TOL unfortunately who was also lauded for his kicking, defence and breaking. Lets see what Gatland thinks.

    What other options are available? How can you be taken seriously when you touted Reddan as a better option?


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    #506
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    He carried well in the open channels and did well in the lineout. Its more than can be said for our captain, whose stupid penalties cost us the game. I assume you're one of the ones who use the Demented Mole's fabricated statistics to bash POM? :rolleyes:

    POM like most Munster players has to put in a flawless performance to gain any recognition from a large portion of fans, largely due to misdirected Kidney-hate.

    Nice post. Shame I was asking about Murray. Carry on though.


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    #507
    opinionatedfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    He carried well in the open channels and did well in the lineout. Its more than can be said for our captain, whose stupid penalties cost us the game. I assume you're one of the ones who use the Demented Mole's fabricated statistics to bash POM? :rolleyes:

    POM like most Munster players has to put in a flawless performance to gain any recognition from a large portion of fans, largely due to misdirected Kidney-hate.

    POM like most Munster players only need a few average performances to suddenly end up starting for Ireland.


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    #508
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    danthefan wrote: »
    Nice post. Shame I was asking about Murray. Carry on though.

    You're the one that mentioned POM. :rolleyes:


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    #509
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    opinionatedfan wrote: »
    POM like most Munster players only need a few average performances to suddenly end up starting for Ireland.

    Wonder what the excuse for all the hate will be when Kidney gets the chop


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    #510
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    trouttrout wrote: »
    You're the one that mentioned POM. :rolleyes:

    Doesn't change the fact he was obviously asking about Murray.


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    #511
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    opinionatedfan wrote: »
    POM like most Munster players only need a few average performances to suddenly end up starting for Ireland.

    Under Kidney. Sometimes they don't even need that. Should be all change from now on though.


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