The LC Debating Thread Motion #1: Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert

Peregrine

As extensively discussed in the past..em hour or so here, this is the Leaving Cert Debating Thread.

Debating:
Debating is a very good skill to have as a student and in life in general. This is a civilised way to express your opinions and state why you disagree with others. Debating widens your understanding of the world through research and teaches you to accept ideas and opinions different to yours.

"Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress."
-Ghandi

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First motion
The motion for our first debate will be:

Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert.

_____________________________________________________

Please analyse the motion carefully before posting, how it's worded and what is included etc. for example this topic is about making Irish OPTIONAL for the LEAVING CERT only.
Also, this debate ends on midnight 31st of March, this date can be extended should a majority of the debaters wish so.

I do not take part in the debate but I will oversee it and in the end make a neutral decision on which side won the argument. You shall refer to me as Your Majesty the chairman of the debate. The next chairman will be the poster who accumulates the most 'thanks' in this thread.

Rules(by Indiego):
1) The first person to start the thread picks the motion
2) Topic is open for discussion for a set time period
3) Posts most be clearly labelled as proposition or opposition
4) People must be civil, we don't want to make extra work for mods
5) Thanks are taken to be a kind of 'I like your argument here/I agree'
6) The individual post with the most thanks can choose the next topic for discussion (or if they don't want to, they can let the second person voluteer)
7) The winning side overall is decided by the topic poster (they should consider not only the strongest arguments, but how many of the arguments stayed intact, not tackled down by the opposite side)
8) Don't take it too seriously, bitta banter like


And we are live people!

*Brought to you by the 5th Year Off Topic

MickFleetwood

It should be made optional because it's taught horribly (who the **** wants to spend countless hours hunched over a textbook learning off boring poems?) and it has no actual value in the real world. Students who wish to study the subject can. The language, despite popular belief, will not die out as it is already encoded in various textbooks and dictionaries and every other piece of media that spouts the language.
Precious time spent on Irish, a generally useless subject, could be spent learning more important/practical things. Such as aviation, coding, computer programming, science subjects, mathematics, other languages, etc.

peekachoo

I agree. Maybe if it was taught better I wouldn't mind it being compulsory but...

Layzerman

I think Irish should be mandatory for everyone. You can argue it has so practical applications for most students, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's part of our heritage. "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" after all!

Irish isn't the only 'useless' subject either. You can argue that some aspects of English are worthless, Art, Music are of no practical application either, but that doesn't mean they're not taught. People are opposed to learning Irish because they see it as 'useless'.

It's like saying "People don't like it so let's give them the option"

Twoandahalfmen

peekachoo wrote: »

I agree. Maybe if it was taught better I wouldn't mind it being compulsory but...

It's taught awfully and it's the only subject I can't do. We learn it for 14 years and still can't learn it its a waste of time no one wants to do it and it will no be used once we leave 6th year

Peregrine

Layzerman wrote: »

"Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" after all!

Also, forgot to mention..All posts must be in ENGLISH (As Béarla) Can't expect me to dust out my old Irish dictionary to decipher your Higher Level A1 posts :P

Regardless, some good points.

Edit: Guys, also remember that the motion says "Leaving Cert" it would be compulsory for 11 years up until Junior Cert. Using the wording of the motion in your argument is important.

Layzerman

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Also, forgot to mention..All posts must be in ENGLISH (As Béarla) Can't expect me to dust out my old Irish dictionary to decipher your posts :P

Regardless, some good points.

It means a country without a language is a country without a soul for anyone who doesn't know

MickFleetwood

Layzerman wrote: »

I think Irish should be mandatory for everyone. You can argue it has so practical applications for most students, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's part of our heritage. "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" after all!

Irish isn't the only 'useless' subject either. You can argue that some aspects of English are worthless, Art, Music are of no practical application either, but that doesn't mean they're not taught. People are opposed to learning Irish because they see it as 'useless'.

It's like saying "People don't like it so let's give them the option"

So? Your point? Heritage is used as a crutch for people who wish it to be mandatory, despite it being completely illogical. The vast majority of students will never pursue learning the language after their completion of its course, so this point is meaningless. Why should we force heritage on students? And is nationalistic pride in an outdated, totally useless dialect more concerning than the practicality of it?
I think not, in my opinion. We live in an economic and social climate where efficiency and capability are highly important. Those who wish to learn the language could, as I've already stated, and would.

EoghanIRL

The Irish language is a great language without a doubt but I would have to agree with the topic . It should be made optional.
1. Clearly not many in class have an interest in the subject, they are there because they have to be.
2. It creates a disadvantage towards people that have an inability to speak the language. I.e people not from Ireland. They are down a subject straight away.

My main argument is that the language in my opinion is dead. There is no interest to learn it from what I see , most Irish teachers teach more than one subject so they could keep job security and finally the government shouldn't FORCE us to do a subject that we have no desire to learn. They should give us an option to do it so that those who do it want to.

The Irish language has no use in any country except from Ireland or college points . If it was made optional the Gaeltachts could still speak it. Surely giving students the choice , the opportunity to do subjects like economics or applied maths or just an extra subject would be far more beneficial than making us learn something that will be scarcely used ? I don't know anyone who plans on using the language after the LC.
It's time to give the students a choice !

MickFleetwood

Layzerman wrote: »

It means a country without a language is a country without a soul for anyone who doesn't know

We would still have the language, though. Just because we learn it (quite badly, for the most part) for a couple of years doesn't really make it a major component in Irish society.

peekachoo

To be more broad about the whole education system for a moment, I think all subjects should be optional, including irish. It's much harder to study subjects you have no interest in and if we had the option to choose (within range, of course) all of our subjects, I believe there would be much higher grades and points coming from the leaving cert.

Someone (like myself) might be awful at Irish, and maths. But prefer more practical subjects, art, music, technology, metal work, wood work etc. Why should these people not be allowed to achieve the highest points they can from their desired subjects, and to refine their skills and knowledge on what they're good at?

Layzerman

MickFleetwood wrote: »

So? Your point? Heritage is used as a crutch for people who wish it to be mandatory, despite it being completely illogical. The vast majority of students will never pursue learning the language after their completion of its course, so this point is meaningless. Why should we force heritage on students? And is nationalistic pride in an outdated, totally useless dialect more concerning than the practicality of it?
I think not, in my opinion. We live in an economic and social climate where efficiency and capability are highly important. Those who wish to learn the language could, as I've already stated, and would.

Our heritage is important, it's who you are, your roots, where you come from. Heritage is the connection between your ancestors and your family today, so why shouldn't people learn about it?

You just outlined the exact flaw with the education system. Everyone thinks it's better to be taught in relation to practical applications and getting a job. Isn't that what college is for? It's important to have a broad education in many different aspects leaving school. When we leave we're not going to need most of the subjects we're studying today so why single out Irish? Will I use German when I leave? No. Geography? Probably not. English literature? Not a hope. But that doesn't mean they're not being taught.

MickFleetwood

Our heritage is important, it's who you are, your roots, where you come from.

I know this, and it's why people who are interested in it and want to pursue their nationalistic pride in the language could and would. Doesn't mean we all have to even when we don't want to.

Heritage is the connection between your ancestors and your family today, so why shouldn't people learn about it?

Because it's virtually useless. That's why we shouldn't be forced to learn it.
I'm not saying bin the language, I'm saying make it optional. I'm quite confident some would still learn it. Those who go on to learn the language after secondary school would also learn it in secondary school if given the choice.

You just outlined the exact flaw with the education system. Everyone thinks it's better to be taught in relation to practical applications and getting a job. Isn't that what college is for?

Yeah, that's what college is for. It's also what school is for. We go to secondary school to complete an exam which gets us into college.

It's important to have a broad education in many different aspects leaving school.

Yes, it is. But I still think something with no value is utterly useless to spend time on.
Many pupils fail/do badly in science subjects and mathematics. Time spent on learning Irish could be used to improve students capabilities in these subjects.

When we leave we're not going to need most of the subjects we're studying today so why single out Irish?

I'm not singling out Irish. The thread asks about Irish being compulsory, so I'm talking about it.

Will I use German when I leave? No.

Perhaps you won't, but you never know. Ideas and goals change throughout the years and you may need it, as it an actual language with values in the modern world. You could secure a job in Germany with a good understanding of the language.

Layzerman

MickFleetwood wrote: »

I know this, and it's why people who are interested in it and want to pursue their nationalistic pride in the language could and would. Doesn't mean we all have to even when we don't want to.

People have to do a lot of things they don't want to. Do I want to analyse Macbeth in greater detail than Shakespeare himself? Just because people don't want to do something because they have no interest doesn't mean we should give them the choice.

Yeah, that's what college is for. It's also what school is for. We go to secondary school to complete an exam which gets us into college.

Exactly, so why should everything in school be taught in relation to the working world? If you're going to college then it'll be done there. Secondary school isn't just you're gateway to college, it's there to give you the broadest education possible.

Yes, it is. But I still think something with no value is utterly useless to spend time on.
Many pupils fail/do badly in science subjects and mathematics. Time spent on learning Irish could be used to improve students capabilities in these subjects.
I'm not singling out Irish. The thread asks about Irish being compulsory, so I'm talking about it.

Who's to say these students who do badly in the sciences/maths aren't good at Irish? It gives a more level playing field to everyone.. Some people are good at science and bad at language, some are the opposite.

I know, I'm just saying Irish is generally the one that's singled out.

Perhaps you won't, but you never know. Ideas and goals change throughout the years and you may need it.

You just said it yourself. It's all ifs and buts. Some people may find a love for Irish in the LC because 'ideas and goals change throughout the years and you may need it'

aimzLc2

It should definitely be an option ,those that are great at languages have an advantage, it is once again the unfair leaving cert system allowing some students an edge over others before beginning the courses, some people are naturally born great at languages (whatever part of the brain that is ) and others are not , it should be a choice so those who are good and like the subject can pick it and enjoy it and for those that don't , they can stick with art/business whatever they are good at.

MickFleetwood

People have to do a lot of things they don't want to. Do I want to analyse Macbeth in greater detail than Shakespeare himself? Just because people don't want to do something because they have no interest doesn't mean we should give them the choice.

So we shouldn't give students a choice in whether they want to do Irish or not?

That's crazy, in my opinion. Of course we should give them a choice on whether they want to learn the language.

Exactly, so why should everything in school be taught in relation to the working world? If you're going to college then it'll be done there. Secondary school isn't just you're gateway to college, it's there to give you the broadest education possible.

I'd personally rather do more Maths and Chemistry to Irish. Don't care about a broader education, I want a more focused education.

Who's to say these students who do badly in the sciences/maths aren't good at Irish? It gives a more level playing field to everyone.. Some people are good at science and bad at language, some are the opposite.

Well, if the student wants to study Irish he can and do well. Again, I'm not saying get rid of the subject, I'm saying make it optional.
I know, I'm just saying Irish is generally the one that's singled out.

You just said it yourself. It's all ifs and buts. Some people may find a love for Irish in the LC because 'ideas and goals change throughout the years and you may need it'

If they find a love for it they can study it. I've said it clearly.... Make Irish optional, don't scrap it.

If I come off as irritated it's because my tinnitus is at me.

anirishlad

If a pupil takes Irish until the end of the Junior Cert. He/She has been learning that language for 9 years, if the subject was taught properly that should be a solid basis for most people and those who want to study it to a higher level can pick it for the Leaving Cert.

It's actually unfair that people are forced to take 2 languages many of us believe Irish is an hobby not a real language for day to day use so why are we forced to do it when it has no practical application in most of our lives? I believe English and Maths are the only suitable compulsory subjects as they effect all of us in our daily livelihood.

This would also mean we will produce a more modern take on education.Instead of Irish one could be practising there artistic ability,musical ability, etc. Ultimately the leaving cert should be aiming for choice and at the moment there is thousands of people doing ordinary level Irish for their leaving who don't give a damn about the subject and hundreds of productive hours are being wasted on something a student has no further interest in.

MickFleetwood

anirishlad wrote: »

If a pupil takes Irish until the end of the Junior Cert. He/She has been learning that language for 9 years, if the subject was taught properly that should be a solid basis for most people and those who want to study it to a higher level can pick it for the Leaving Cert.

It's actually unfair that people are forced to take 2 languages many of us believe Irish is an hobby not a real language for day to day use so why are we forced to do it when it has no practical application in most of our lives? I believe English and Maths are the only suitable compulsory subjects as they effect all of us in our daily livelihood.

This would also mean we will produce a more modern take on education.Instead of Irish one could be practising there artistic ability,musical ability, etc. Ultimately the leaving cert should be aiming for choice and at the moment there is thousands of people doing ordinary level Irish for their leaving who don't give a damn about the subject and hundreds of productive hours are being wasted on something a student has no further interest in.

Precisely my point. A subject with little interest in, and little value, should not be made compulsory, regardless of pride in the language.

If people are proud and want to learn it they can later in life, but too much time is wasted on it. And money and resources.

The only real argument that I see which could favor the subject being compulsory is a potential loss of jobs, as no doubt the majority of students would instantly drop it if they had the chance.

For the record, despite the point I'm arguing, I was offered the chance to drop Irish but I wanted to stick with it. :rolleyes: So I'm probably a little bit hypocritical.

Layzerman

MickFleetwood wrote: »

So we shouldn't give students a choice in whether they want to do Irish or not?

That's crazy, in my opinion. Of course we should give them a choice on whether they want to learn the language.

No we shouldn't There's such a bad attitude towards it, like what's wrong with it? In my opinion people are using its apparently useless applications as an excuse because they just don't like it/can't grasp it. I'm not saying that everyone is, but it does happen.

I'd personally rather do more Maths and Chemistry to Irish. Don't care about a broader education, I want a more focused education.

Then do Maths and Chemistry in college? In my opinion, college is for focusing on what you want to do with your life. Secondary school shouldn't be centered around focusing you on your career path, it's there to give you the most knowledge it can.

You will get your focused education - in college

Well, if the student wants to study Irish he can and do well. Again, I'm not saying get rid of the subject, I'm saying make it optional.

Do you honestly think that'd be fair? It'd create an unfair playing field for everyone. Some people would focus their LC on sciences and maths, others will on languages. The 2 don't compare, so why should their results in 2 completely different areas be put against each other when going for college places? If everyone does Irish and everyone does maths it makes for a much fairer Leaving Cert.

If I come off as irritated it's because my tinnitus is at me.

Na it's only for the banter anyway don't take it too seriously, same goes for me

Out of interest what's your views on making English and Maths optional?

Indiego

No, we shouldn't give them a choice.
It's not the subject itself thats the problem, it is, in fact, the teaching methodologies and attitude, the 'stigma', that surrounds irish that is the problem.
If we go into questioning the practicalities of making Irish non-optional it creates a lot of problems, firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education.
Secondly, it calls into question why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects. College is for specialization, not secondary school, so it would be irrational to study 7 maths based subjects, or 7 international languages for the Leaving cert, and these 3 compulsory subjects aim to ensure you have at least a basic grasp of a maths subject, your own native tounge, and the language native to your own country. It's a matter of cultural pride - people label Irish as 'stupid' or 'dead' or 'a waste of time', when in reality, in essence, irish is the same as any other language we learn, theres no invisible barrier making it harder for us to learn, its psycological, we believe its a waste of time, so we don't bother with it. If we were to just embrace our own culture and take pride in the fact that our little tiny island has its own multifaceted language that has evolved over thousands of years, perhaps it would seem less of a burden. Any other country that has a native language embraces it, and I think we should take a leaf out of their books and follow their lead.
I for one am not ashamed to admit that I hate Irish, you can even find me saying that it is 'the one exam that strikes fear into my heart' in a different thread, and that is for one simple reason: The Irish syllabus, and the way we are taught it.

I am opposing the motion in the sense that Irish should remain compulsory, but I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! We have the same verbs drilled into us since primary school, but how many of us honestly know all the irregular verb tenses and can confidently construct sentences without using 'Tá'..? I for one can't.

Irish is stuck in the past and its about time the country shook the dust off, and
rekindled the love for our own language again - and making it non-compulsory is simply reinforcing this '**** Irish..' attitude and showing that were willing to give up an important part of what makes our country unique!



OPPOSE THIS MOTION.
Even though its a highly unpopular opinion.

peekachoo

From the look of these posts, everything goes back to my original post of making every subject optional.
That's why I think it's great they're bringing in subjects like media studies into the new JC curriculum.
It's time the Irish education system caught up with the 21st century!

MickFleetwood

No we shouldn't There's such a bad attitude towards it, like what's wrong with it? In my opinion people are using its apparently useless applications as an excuse because they just don't like it/can't grasp it. I'm not saying that everyone is, but it does happen.

There's nothing wrong with it, I just think it should be made optional. Put that down to personal laziness or whatever, but I think it.

Then do Maths and Chemistry in college? In my opinion, college is for focusing on what you want to do with your life. Secondary school shouldn't be centered around focusing you on your career path, it's there to give you the most knowledge it can.

Yeah, it could do that. People will still study Irish, no doubt. I don't want to, though, and many others don't also. This is why I think it should be a choice subject.

Do you honestly think that'd be fair? It'd create an unfair playing field for everyone. Some people would focus their LC on sciences and maths, others will on languages. The 2 don't compare, so why should their results in 2 completely different areas be put against each other when going for college places? If everyone does Irish and everyone does maths it makes for a much fairer Leaving Cert.

The LC is bull**** anyway to be honest. I think students should be able to play the system to their favor in a way, to get the most points they possibly can. If failing Irish is going to drag them down even if they'd be great in the college course, well, then.... :pac:

Na it's only for the banter anyway don't take it too seriously, same goes for me

Out of interest what's your views on making English and Maths optional?

Cool. Hey, I just noticed there's two emoticons for sticking a tongue out. Weird.
I think the English curriculum should be improved upon, really. It's borderline time-wasting. We place too much emphasis on two-bit analysis of poems.
Maths should stay where it is, no doubt. Such an important subject. Though Project Maths is a goddamn joke.

MickFleetwood

Indiego wrote: »

No, we shouldn't give them a choice.
It's not the subject itself thats the problem, it is, in fact, the teaching methodologies and attitude, the 'stigma', that surrounds irish that is the problem.
If we go into questioning the practicalities of making Irish non-optional it creates a lot of problems, firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education.
Secondly, it calls into question why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects. College is for specialization, not secondary school, so it would be irrational to study 7 maths based subjects, or 7 international languages for the Leaving cert, and these 3 compulsory subjects aim to ensure you have at least a basic grasp of a maths subject, your own native tounge, and the language native to your own country. It's a matter of cultural pride - people label Irish as 'stupid' or 'dead' or 'a waste of time', when in reality, in essence, irish is the same as any other language we learn, theres no invisible barrier making it harder for us to learn, its psycological, we believe its a waste of time, so we don't bother with it. If we were to just embrace our own culture and take pride in the fact that our little tiny island has its own multifaceted language that has evolved over thousands of years, perhaps it would seem less of a burden. Any other country that has a native language embraces it, and I think we should take a leaf out of their books and follow their lead.
I for one am not ashamed to admit that I hate Irish, you can even find me saying that it is 'the one exam that strikes fear into my heart' in a different thread, and that is for one simple reason: The Irish syllabus, and the way we are taught it.

I am opposing the motion in the sense that Irish should remain compulsory, but I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! We have the same verbs drilled into us since primary school, but how many of us honestly know all the irregular verb tenses and can confidently construct sentences without using 'Tá'..? I for one can't.

Irish is stuck in the past and its about time the country shook the dust off, and
rekindled the love for our own language again - and making it non-compulsory is simply reinforcing this '**** Irish..' attitude and showing that were willing to give up an important part of what makes our country unique!



OPPOSE THIS MOTION.
Even though its a highly unpopular opinion.

Great point, and I touched on it earlier on.

Perhaps if Irish was taught differently I'd change my perspective towards it, but let's face it. The whole curriculum is a joke. We spend literal hours in my class learning off sentences which we don't know the meaning of to regurgitate back onto a blank page.

That is a ridiculous method of teaching, and you're not actually learning Irish at all.

aimzLc2

Indiego wrote: »

firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education. - no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries.

why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects.
- why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage


I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! -
thats why they tried to introduce the picture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work

rekindled the love for our own language again - young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back

MickFleetwood

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Indiego wrote: »

firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education. - no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries.

why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects.
- why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage


I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! -
thats why they tried to introduce the pciture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work

rekindled the love for our own language again - young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back

Rote learning is basically the heart of the problem.

anirishlad

Indiego wrote: »

If we go into questioning the practicalities of making Irish non-optional it creates a lot of problems, firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education.

I'm sorry but:

• No multinational cares about Irish
• If a student's strength's don't lie in languages then it doesn't matter i know about 30 people in my school who will never use a foreign language again after the leaving cert
• Colleges are forced to use Irish for matriculation purposes
• The Junior cert syllabus provides the well rounded education, the Leaving Cert provides the specialisation. Look at England with their A levels, they have a choice and i'm pretty sure they don't come out retarded from not doing a 2nd language.

aimzLc2

MickFleetwood wrote: »

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Rote learning is basically the heart of the problem.

Every leaving cert subject requires rote learning so that doesn't really apply to whether we will make irish compulsory or not.

Layzerman

MickFleetwood wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with it, I just think it should be made optional. Put that down to personal laziness or whatever, but I think it.

A perfect example of how Irish is considered useless because people's attitude towards it.

It comes down to the fact that people think it should be optional based on their opinions of it, not if it should be optional when put into context with receiving a broad second level education.

Yeah, it could do that. People will still study Irish, no doubt. I don't want to, though, and many others don't also. This is why I think it should be a choice subject.

And I personally have no intentions of taking Irish in college, I'm a sciencey person Again it's all about people don't want to study it. Why should they be given a choice just because they don't want to?

The LC is bull**** anyway to be honest. I think students should be able to play the system to their favor in a way, to get the most points they possibly can. If failing Irish is going to drag them down even if they'd be great in the college course, well, then.... :pac:

Well then don't fail Irish If you're not able for HL, do OL, even foundation if you have to. It's something that needs work put into it like everything else.

Cool. Hey, I just noticed there's two emoticons for sticking a tongue out. Weird.
I think the English curriculum should be improved upon, really. It's borderline time-wasting. We place too much emphasis on two-bit analysis of poems.
Maths should stay where it is, no doubt. Such an important subject. Though Project Maths is a goddamn joke.

haha that's cool

And i'd agree in relation to the Irish course, throw the poetry and prose out the window and bring in more focus on fluency.

bitburger

Irish is optional

/thread

MickFleetwood

aimzLc2 wrote: »

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Every leaving cert subject requires rote learning so that doesn't really apply to whether we will make irish compulsory or not.

I'm saying rote learning is the heart of the problem for learning Irish. You're not really coming to grips with a language by just poring over sentences and learning them off, are you?

Perhaps if we spent time actually learning how to effectively speak the language (I know I don't in my class) it would lead to more capability of actually speaking the dialect.

EoghanIRL

After the jc we have been learning Irish for 10 years . The majority of people can't speak fluent Irish and are relatively bad at it . After that amount of time one should be fluent no? So the attitude is one problem but what about the teachers , this would imply they are not doing their job properly and students are not being motivated to learn in class. I still think it should be optional .

aimzLc2

MickFleetwood wrote: »

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Perhaps if we spent time actually learning how to effectively speak the language (I know I don't in my class) it would lead to more capability of actually speaking the dialect.

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Layzerman

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Indiego wrote: »

firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education. - no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries.

why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects.
- why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage


I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! -
thats why they tried to introduce the picture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work

rekindled the love for our own language again - young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back

1. Yes but how many people do you know that come out of secondary school fluent in French/German/Spanish? Not being fluent is of no use to MNCs either.

2. As it was already pointed out the three core subjects are core for a reason.

3. I think we're all in agreement that the course could do with some changes, but sure that's the same with a lot of subjects.

4. You don't have to love a subject to do it. I'm not particularly fond of English, I still have to do it? It's coming back to the fact that just because people don't want to do it, doesn't mean they shouldn't have to.

MickFleetwood

A perfect example of how Irish is considered useless because people's attitude towards it.

I agree. Rote learning, when it comes to learning the language, should be scrapped. It needs a new system because in many cases you don't actually learn the language, you're just learning how to pass the exam. Not really a broad or focused education.

It comes down to the fact that people think it should be optional based on their opinions of it, not if it should be optional when put into context with receiving a broad second level education.

Public opinion tends to change things. It's not really a broad education because we spend time simply learning how to pass the Leaving Certificate exam, not how to actually speak/use it.
Just my opinion.

And I personally have no intentions of taking Irish in college, I'm a sciencey person Again it's all about people don't want to study it. Why should they be given a choice just because they don't want to?

I don't really understand your line of thinking, here. It's best if we agree to disagree because I think if the general public wants something to change, it should change.

Peregrine

MickFleetwood wrote: »

aimzLc2 wrote: »

I'm saying rote learning is the heart of the problem for learning Irish. You're not really coming to grips with a language by just poring over sentences and learning them off, are you?

Perhaps if we spent time actually learning how to effectively speak the language (I know I don't in my class) it would lead to more capability of actually speaking the dialect.

aimzLc2 wrote: »

MickFleetwood wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Wtf happened to quoting..it's all messed up :eek:

little sis...

aimzLc2 wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Yeh with 20+ sraith pictiur to learn sentences off for! Still wrote learning EVEN FOR THE ORAL

MickFleetwood

aimzLc2 wrote: »

MickFleetwood wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

The oral? The oral is basically more rote learning. In my class, for the orals, we're given sheets of paper (you know? The Sraith Pictiur?) and learn off the sentences.

When it comes to being asked questions, again, more rote learning. You can actually influence the examiner to get them to ask you the questions you have rote-learned answers to.

Indiego

no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries. - yes, I will accept that bringing job opportunities into this was a slip of the tounge, or finger in this case? I'm afraid I'll have to admit that was a stupid argument and I'm going to have to put that down to the fact that I'm half asleep and have the flu yeah, excuses I know :L

why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage - Yes, by all means make business compulsory! or science! That would be great, but unfortunately isnt the crux of this discussion. Only a small minority are good at maths, same goes for English. That mentality applies to all subjects, having subjects compulsory levels the proverbial playing field in a way, it makes sure people don't take advantage of the points system and only choose subjects in one field alone, which in my opinion completely misses the point of having a general education in the first place.

Thats why they tried to introduce the picture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work - the picture series most certainly are not conducive to erradicating rote learning, and in my opinion, the oral receiving more weighting will in the long run make a difference, but only to results.
The problem is theyre changing the method of assessment, even at that only partially, but they are ignoring the blatantly obvious problem - the actual teaching of the subject.

young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back
- no, im not expecting overnight miracles, the current generations have already formed their opinions - I'm thinking longer term. if a love of Irish, and enthusiasm for it, is fostered in people, this has the potential to redeem Irish.

Prodigious

Here are my opinions:

- As the fundamental point of a language is to act as a form of communication, Gaeilge, as well as several other languages, are becoming more and more pointless, as regrettably, English becomes the world language.

- If Gaeilge should be made optional, so should English. Currently, English is taught in the form of literature. This is pointless to the majority of people. Literature does not enable us with a superior means of communication.

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

in conclusion, I OPPOSE the motion.

Indiego

Prodigious wrote: »

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

Exactly this!
It's all down to the stigma surrounding Irish, if we were shown it as a new subject called, oh I don't know, Celtic languages or something, and it was thought by enthusiastic teachers who had a genuine love for it, and the language was taught similarly to other languages in school, at the same level as them, and noone had any preconceived negativity about it, I have no doubts it woud thrive.

anirishlad

Indiego wrote: »

Exactly this!
It's all down to the stigma surrounding Irish, if we were shown it as a new subject called, oh I don't know, Celtic languages or something, and it was thought by enthusiastic teachers who had a genuine love for it, and the language was taught similarly to other languages in school, at the same level as them, and noone had any preconceived negativity about it, I have no doubts it woud thrive.

It would be put down as useless and never make it onto the syllabus It would be the equivalent of doing russian for the leaving :pac:

Jackobyte

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

_____________________________________________________

First motion
The motion for our first debate will be:

Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert.

_____________________________________________________

The support for the Irish language is based off the idea of patriotism and nationalism, which is an irrational care for an arbitrary occurrence in which you made no choice nor had no decision. You happened to be born into Ireland, and just as easily could have been born in France, Madagascar, Kiribati, Japan. The fact of the matter is, this zealous over-concern for protecting our "proud heritage", and continuing it into the future, when you played no part in it, is illogical. Why should any of us care about the maintaining a bygone language because it is a so-called "part of our heritage", or care about the fact we are Irish at all, when we had no choice in becoming part of the continuation of Irish history? The persistent support for Irish is based off the fallacy that is patriotism, and therefore it should be shunned as a language, from society as a whole, which includes the Leaving Cert. I propose we all just use Esperanto all the time instead. :pac: Propose the motion!

*The above is not representative of Jackobyte's actual beliefs. I am in fact an advocate for the Irish language, but believe the LC needs serious reform to encourage fluency in the language and quell the rote-learning system currently in place However, all the obvious avenues of argument had already been exhausted, so I said I'd try a different approach. A key skill in debate is the ability to argue against your own beliefs.

Also, irrelevant, but a debating video I happen to like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJedoT3ufCI

anirishlad

Prodigious wrote: »

Here are my opinions:

- As the fundamental point of a language is to act as a form of communication, Gaeilge, as well as several other languages, are becoming more and more pointless, as regrettably, English becomes the world language.

- If Gaeilge should be made optional, so should English. Currently, English is taught in the form of literature. This is pointless to the majority of people. Literature does not enable us with a superior means of communication.

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

in conclusion, I OPPOSE the motion.

• Literature does improve spoken and written English as it exposes student to different forms of writing and improves their range of vocabulary
  
• People who go to the Gaeltacht already have a predisposition towards liking Irish as there willing to fork out a grand for basically 3 weeks of craic. Going to a Gaeltacht can't be compared to a classroom environment because unfortunately schools do not have the resources to pay for students to go surfing and then come back in a great mood for some oral Irish
  
• The language is being kept alive by native speakers, it is actually being negatively impacted by being compulsory for the leaving cert as more people will take a dislike to the language

Peregrine

Jackobyte wrote: »

The support for the Irish language is based off the idea of patriotism and nationalism, which is an irrational care for an arbitrary occurrence in which you made no choice nor had no decision. You happened to be born into Ireland, and just as easily could have been born in France, Madagascar, Kiribati, Japan. The fact of the matter is, this zealous over-concern for protecting our "proud heritage", and continuing it into the future, when you played no part in it, is illogical. Why should any of us care about the maintaining a bygone language because it is a so-called "part of our heritage", or care about the fact we are Irish at all, when we had no choice in becoming part of the continuation of Irish history? The persistent support for Irish is based off the fallacy that is patriotism, and therefore it should be shunned as a language, from society as a whole, which includes the Leaving Cert. I propose we all just use Esperanto all the time instead. :pac: Propose the motion!

*The above is not representative of Jackobyte's actual beliefs. I am in fact an advocate for the Irish language, but believe the LC needs serious reform to encourage fluency in the language and quell the rote-learning system currently in place However, all the obvious avenues of argument had already been exhausted, so I said I'd try a different approach. A key skill in debate is the ability to argue against your own beliefs

I actually believed you for the first half of it..
You had definitely lost me at Esperanto :pac:

thegreatescape

The problem I have with Irish is the fact that after learning it since you enter primary school until you leave secondary school, unless you're going to become an Irish teacher, go into a job that demands it as a part of it, or living in a Gaeltacht area, it has no use. Sure it's nice to have and be able to speak it, but for someone like me who I know will never speak it again once I'm finished 6th year, I think it's pointless.

For example, I want to pursue a career in Science and Germany is the number one country in the world for it. If I was learning German since I entered primary school until I finished secondary school, I would have no problem going to Germany to study a science degree which would have unlocked so many doors for me later in life.

Whereas I'm being forced to learn a subject I know for a fact I will never speak a word of again once I leave. I just find that situation very annoying.

In conclusion, I'm in favour of the motion.

cfc.forever

I do think Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert due to the fact, only a small majority of people in Ireland speak Irish and only a certain amount of positions for the future require it which is becoming a teacher or gardai. I think Irish should be optional and people should choose which language they wish to learn English or Irish. Irish has caused problems for people who are dyslexic and who cannot do irish for various reasons which puts on a heavy workload for educational psychologists.

I think Irish should be the same as "French" and be optional, alongside German. If people had the option of Irish and may find it difficult may be able to do better in other subjects. Students who find Irish difficult might feel a great strain the oral exam has on them.

In the majority of irish homes Irish is not spoke fluently and students are expected to do an exam paper in Irish. For some people it may be a natural talent, for some languages mighten't be for them. We all have to do subjects we don't like but do you guys really think students should be forced to study hours each day for a subject they mighten't ever use again.

I think it would be very benefical if Irish was optional as people who wished to pursue a career that needed Irish could do it. This would also be very benefical for teachers teaching in other subjects for people who are exempt from doing Irish will no longer needed to be accounted for as there will be other students who choose not to do Irish.

I'm currently doing my Junior Cert this year and the thoughts of doing Irish for my Leaving Cert are thankfully out of my head, I was getting stressed, I done Irish up until second year but finally got exempt. I had to get a psychological report. This is not fair and no person should go through pain and suffering from the leaving cert, I wish the government made this optional.

Layzerman

cfc.forever wrote: »

I do think Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert due to the fact, only a small majority of people in Ireland speak Irish and only a certain amount of positions for the future require it which is becoming a teacher or gardai. I think Irish should be optional and people should choose which language they wish to learn English or Irish. Irish has caused problems for people who are dyslexic and who cannot do irish for various reasons which puts on a heavy workload for educational psychologists.

Teachers and gardaí aren't necessarily a small group of people though are they? English definitely shouldn't be made optional, you may disagree with the way it's taught but how else would you learn to write a speech, argue and develop points or just vocab in general?

How is it a workload for educational psychologists? It's their job..

I think Irish should be the same as "French" and be optional, alongside German. If people had the option of Irish and may find it difficult may be able to do better in other subjects. Students who find Irish difficult might feel a great strain the oral exam has on them.

There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

In the majority of irish homes Irish is not spoke fluently and students are expected to do an exam paper in Irish. For some people it may be a natural talent, for some languages mighten't be for them. We all have to do subjects we don't like but do you guys really think students should be forced to study hours each day for a subject they mighten't ever use again.

Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

I think it would be very benefical if Irish was optional as people who wished to pursue a career that needed Irish could do it. This would also be very benefical for teachers teaching in other subjects for people who are exempt from doing Irish will no longer needed to be accounted for as there will be other students who choose not to do Irish.

If you were to think of how many people that'd drop Irish if they could, it'd add up to a fairly substantial amount. Now think of all the Irish teachers out there that'd lose their jobs because of the lack of students picking it for the LC.

I don't even know what you mean by the last bit :pac:

I'm currently doing my Junior Cert this year and the thoughts of doing Irish for my Leaving Cert are thankfully out of my head, I was getting stressed, I done Irish up until second year but finally got exempt. I had to get a psychological report. This is not fair and no person should go through pain and suffering from the leaving cert, I wish the government made this optional.

Hahahaha 'pain and suffering'. It's a language not the Holocaust lads!

aimzLc2

Layzerman wrote: »

Teachers and gardaí aren't necessarily a small group of people though are they? English definitely shouldn't be made optional, you may disagree with the way it's taught but how else would you learn to write a speech, argue and develop points or just vocab in general?

I agree with you there that english should not be optional because it is actually used unlike irish!


There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

-but why are you trying to make it hard for anyone when you could make it easier for many who are not good at languages? It is easier work for those who languages come naturally too thus giving them an edge



Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

-wow really because i picked all my subjects because i will probably use all of them again , i just know i won't ever use irish again. why not focus on subject now that you have an interest in and give you a head start for college? having irish as a compulsory subject does not make your education anymore broad



If you were to think of how many people that'd drop Irish if they could, it'd add up to a fairly substantial amount. Now think of all the Irish teachers out there that'd lose their jobs because of the lack of students picking it for the LC.

- fair point!

Layzerman

There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

-but why are you trying to make it hard for anyone when you could make it easier for many who are not good at languages? It is easier work for those who languages come naturally too thus giving them an edge

What about the mathematically gifted? Those that are good at English? There's more people better at languages than Maths in my opinion. It's not giving anyone an edge. I'm saying if everyone did Irish, English and Maths it makes the Leaving Cert. fairer as a whole?

Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

-wow really because i picked all my subjects because i will probably use all of them again , i just know i won't ever use irish again. why not focus on subject now that you have an interest in and give you a head start for college? having irish as a compulsory subject does not make your education anymore broad

Why get a head start though? It's like saying 'Let's start the LC Biology course in 3rd year' or something like that. There's no need to get ahead of yourself.

Focus on your preferred subject then, Irish isn't stopping me from focusing on my sciences.

Yes it does? If we didn't do Irish we obviously wouldn't have a knowledge of it, sounds like a less-broad education to me

Acciaccatura

With the likes of Gaelscoileanna and Gaeltacht summer courses, the amount of fluent (and willing) Irish speakers is increasing, and a more positive outlook on it is growing. I know at least 3 people living outside the Gaeltacht area ( in Louth, Clare and Dublin) who speak Irish at home with their families, and I've come across so many more people of all ages just casually conversing in Irish in public, on the train, in cafés, anywhere really. And let's not forget people from Gaeltacht areas whose first language would be Irish, and learned English from the media. To say that Irish is hardly spoken outside the classroom is definitely not true. Also, English and Irish are our official languages, to make English mandatory and Irish optional is a complete lack of patriotism and makes no sense. I understand some exemptions from Irish because of dyslexia etc. are necessary, but I really don't think it should be optional. The way it's taught, now, that's a different story for another thread :P

Peregrine

Poll added, please read all the options carefully.

If you're not a student, please don't vote.