Buying bitcoins

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

You mean you could not open the account at all? This was not my experience. I think I did got some warning when trying to link my debit card but it let me do it anyway.

Sorry - I guess my post was misleading. Could open - but no opportunity to add card - card was BoI debit.

<EDIT> Received from Circle support: It actually seems to be quite the luck of the draw which international cards are accepted. Hopefully this will all be amended soon! We can't wait to offer full accounts to all of our customers. </EDIT>

Hmm....what sort of confidence is there that this will get squared away in 2015? <EDIT> Circle support saying within 2 years would be a conservative guestimate. I'd like to think it would get squared away by someone before 2015 is out...</EDIT>

trevor1973

Could someone explain where the best place to buy bitcoins is ? I just got a wallet - what sites will accept a bank of Ireland visa debit and do they require identification or can you just purchase without hassle

Thanks

Bitcoin Newbie

alb

It's interesting to look back on the first few pages of this thread from early 2013 and compare to where Bitcoin is now.

Cavehill's concern was that Bitcoin would be outlawed (a concern I used to share) and Mt Gox was still the primary exchange. Now we have the New York bit license regulation due to go live this month, itbit declaring they are the first exchange to be licensed in all 50 states along with having former chairmen of the FDIC, FASB and Senate Finance Committee on their board.

Last week also saw the first trading of GTBC, the fist bitcoin backed security trading in a traditional US market, allowing tax-friendly exposure to US investors.

Here's an SVP of Citi Ventures telling a room of Berkeley MBAs why they should start bitcoin companies. It's a good 6 minute overview of where Bitcoin is right now.

In early 2013 half of the eventual supply of bitcoins had been mined, now we are at over two thirds. The distribution phase is still in full swing, but with the block reward halving again next year the monetary inflation rate is really going to start tailing off in comparison to the total in circulation.

Finally, we are starting to see serious exploration of the use of Bitcoin beyond currency. Nasdaq are planning to use it for their Private Market platform and Honduras are planning to use it for a land title registry.

Someone coined a great term this week - If HTTP gave us the 'World Wide Web', Bitcoin is the 'World Wide Ledger'.

scamalert

having seen bitcoin rise to over 1000$ from mere 30 cents for single coin and drop down,im still not convinced this crypto currency is long-term to stay.

Id sure be glad to seen such future for it to make quick cash-from its popularity,but given that its mostly useful in say doing purchases on silk road or the likes mainly,while others agree on its value and can cash out in real money that is,its only best usage-to stay out of radar when buying something most people wouldn't.

The initial idea was good that anyone can mine it,thus no one having edge over it,but now ive read one company (dont know the name) controls 50% of whole mining,then couple documentaries one on Vice channel YouTube where Chinese have these huge warehouses just to mine coins-equal to 3% of total pool with their gear,and the bill for energy alone is like 70k dollars per month to run single warehouse its insane.


So those who say banks print money-seems dont really care if its banks or some corporation that has gear to do it.
Another thing that bothers me the way its secured-passwords and code needed,and its not like 4 digit number either on your debit card,so say exchange crashes,your hdd fails or you lose that crypto password with 20 digits and you can say good bye to it,no one will care,like that chap couple years back who threw away his hdd with about 2.1m that would been worth at peak price just isn't worth such risk.

Since many say oh its free of charges-no banks interference and not traceable,but at the same time-its only digits on screen and belief of group that it has some sort value.

cant even bother counting % that it rose and dropped over couple years but if it was widely used currency such fluctuations would leave countries bankrupt in a day.where most currencies do fluctuate over the years but its usually back and forth 20% or so,not counting frank that made history this year,and thus you wont see stuff like one having couple grand in your account and over the year its dropping down like 80%,while prices remain the same.

So with all this said i do understand reason why it would be traded on open market,but-its only speculation to make quick buck out of it,since if anyone ever traded forex would know that amount of gold and silver being traded-versus whole reserves in all time humans managed to mine would see that amounts being stored and mined-versus traded don't exist as there isn't enough to cover even tiny bit of it,whats on the market vs real metal deposits.

and second reason as stated in first sentenced its good if you need to buy stuff of the radar,otherwise-whats the point in exchanging your earned cash to digital one to buy same item.

so its now http and bitcoin,but more like casino,dark web-with Tor.

Lazy Bhoy

I am new to Bitcoin and I am still reading the ton of information available online but I am still unsure of the cost of purchasing them.

A friend of mine said that if I buy bitcoin in Ireland then I would have to pay VAT. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If it was true then I do not see the point. I mean why change currency if I stand to lose over 20% alone just on the changeover?

What are the costs or fees when buying from an exchange like Kraken? Does VAT still apply if I buy the coins from Kraken?

I have seen localbitcoins website but it seems like an expensive way to buy bitcoin.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

alb

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

I am new to Bitcoin and I am still reading the ton of information available online but I am still unsure of the cost of purchasing them.

A friend of mine said that if I buy bitcoin in Ireland then I would have to pay VAT. Can anyone tell me if this is true? If it was true then I do not see the point. I mean why change currency if I stand to lose over 20% alone just on the changeover?

What are the costs or fees when buying from an exchange like Kraken? Does VAT still apply if I buy the coins from Kraken?

I have seen localbitcoins website but it seems like an expensive way to buy bitcoin.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Compared to buying precious metals or traditional investments online, the costs of buying a small amount are generally relatively small with Bitcoin, especially if you use an exchange. The fees on kraken are 0.35% per trade. Depositing via a SEPA bank transfer is free, withdrawing Bitcoin is a flat fee of ฿0.0005 per withdrawal. There is no VAT charged. You will have to do some identity verification initially to get set-up.

I'd advise just trying it with a small amount to start with. Really your main concern isn't the fees, but ensuring you know enough to keep your coins safe if you're choosing to 'be your own bank'. If you choose to leave them deposited somewhere, you need to be confident you can trust whoever that is.

alb

I want to demonstrate something cool, I'll need some volunteers from the audience though

Lets open a joint account with 3 other people I've never met, on a weekend. I've been excited about Bitcoins multi-signature feature since I heard about it, but it's only recently that any easy to use implementation was developed, if you want to quickly try it with me here's what to do:

First install the bitpay copay wallet app. No signing up for an account or anything like that is needed.

Swipe from the left to get the menu, choose Add wallet -> Join Shared Wallet. Enter a nickname and in the wallet invitation field either paste in the following code:

56qzCfoN6CLqRyQXR6eFYmKyJCuHLLvZAXNY1Rb7QrunYUsGqUJyTrGGp3Md26zvRJpUFzjnuNL

or, if you're reading this on a laptop and have the app on a different device, click the square to the right which will open the camera and scan the following QR code:

copay3of4.png

Post here if it worked. When 3 people have done so I'll try a transaction or two.

courageoussteve

Ok if I must
I can see you in the app.

alb

courageoussteve wrote: »

Ok if I must
I can see you in the app.

Cool, yeah it shows in my wallet that 'Steve' is a copayer now. We need at least 1 more to be able to use it though, come on anyone else bit-curious?

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

I want to demonstrate something cool, I'll need some volunteers from the audience though

I've tried that but I can't 'join'. I assume you've already gotten your volunteers.


It's interesting - and hard to figure just the extent of what the implications of this will be.

I guess that in effect could be used as a quasi-escrow type application - as I assume that a transaction can't be completed without all members digitally signing off on same?

Very useful online. Outside of that, could be useful for groups of all kinds generally though - as it's dynamic?

Course there's good and bad in that multisign technology. Will your significant other now be approving every conceivable purchase you make in the future?

alb

makeorbrake wrote: »

I've tried that but I can't 'join'. I assume you've already gotten your volunteers.

....

Nope, only me and Steve, so still two more needed, so it should work for you, what problem did you have? what did you try?

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

Nope, only me and Steve, so still two more needed, so it should work for you, what problem did you have? what did you try?

I paste in the invitation code - but the 'join' button down the bottom remains greyed out/unselectable.

alb

did you put something in the nickname field? maybe it's mandatory too?

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

did you put something in the nickname field? maybe it's mandatory too?

my bad. Have now joined. :-)

alb

makeorbrake wrote: »

my bad. Have now joined. :-)

My bad too, I didn't say you had to enter a nickname (didn't know). We've 3 now, which I guess should technically be enough to use the wallet, but a 4th is allowed. The app is still showing the invitation screen for me, so I can't even see the bitcoin address yet.

We got a 4th volunteer out there anywhere?? C'mon... for science!

alb

makeorbrake wrote: »

It's interesting - and hard to figure just the extent of what the implications of this will be.

While we wait for a 4th volunteer... some thoughts on this: It is interesting to think of the implications because this is something that's not natively possible with any other form of money.

makeorbrake wrote: »

I guess that in effect could be used as a quasi-escrow type application - as I assume that a transaction can't be completed without all members digitally signing off on same?

nothing quasi about it. Can be used for escrow, in a way that the escrow can't steal the money themselves, they can only veto the transaction or approve it.

The wallet can be created with X number of users (up to I think 16 max), and requiring any Y of them to sign off on transactions. For the one I created X is 4 and Y is 3. It could be useful for company accounts where a certain number of authorised people must sign off on transactions. Useful also for online organisations where people are not necessarily even in the same country, or don't know each other well or necessarily trust each other, but want to have a shared monetary account. Imagine we were collecting for a charity with our example shared wallet and wanted to ensure none of us stole the funds.

Of course, on a whole other level, bitcoin removes the one-to-one association of 'accounts' with people. You could have a 3 of 5 shared wallet where you hold all 5 keys. You could encrypt them with a password then distribute them geographically, perhaps in different bank safety deposit boxes, or in homes of friends and family. Imagine how secure any money in such a wallet would be. It's secured against natural disaster, theft and government seizure all at the same time in a way that no other money can be.

makeorbrake wrote: »

Course there's good and bad in that multisign technology. Will your significant other now be approving every conceivable purchase you make in the future?

If you choose so you could have a 2/2 wallet for that purpose. You could also have a 2/1 wallet where the funds are shared but either of you can spend them - like a typical joint bank a/c we have today. You could have a 3/2 for your child, where they need their own plus either parent to allow a transaction. You can have as many wallets in as many configrations as you choose.

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

Of course, on a whole other level, bitcoin removes the one-to-one association of 'accounts' with people. You could have a 3 of 5 shared wallet where you hold all 5 keys. You could encrypt them with a password then distribute them geographically, perhaps in different bank safety deposit boxes, or in homes of friends and family. Imagine how secure any money in such a wallet would be. It's secured against natural disaster, theft and government seizure all at the same time in a way that no other money can be.

Now that's an interesting application of bitcoin multi-sig .


On a sidenote, I notice that there's a startup in the UK rolling out bitcoin 'vouchers' (sendabit.co.uk). They don't have a distribution network right now but are overcoming that by mailing out the vouchers.

Is there any regulatory red tape that could prevent such a roll out in Ireland? I'd imagine for mass take-up - in order to make bitcoin an option for regular people in their daily lives - the constraint is in purchasing bitcoin. Something like vouchers would address that...and at least provide a convenient segway for ordinary people to test the water with bitcoin.

courageoussteve

Can a account be created where no one person or piece of software has all the keys?

alb

courageoussteve wrote: »

Can a account be created where no one person or piece of software has all the keys?

That's exactly what we're doing, our three keys used in this multi-sig were generated *locally* on our own devices. They exist nowhere else.

For anyone else reading this, still would like one more volunteer by the way, If you want to try out a cool bitcoin feature (no sign up or money needed - I'll provide the coin) see my post on the previous page

alb

OK, no takers I guess, so I installed copay on another device I have here and created the 4th and final key. I sent 20,000 bits (0.02BTC) to the address.

So the situation is we now have about 20k bits in the wallet, the public address is 3QekH9mmDayK2tP1vPkPvQiq9yVfQpsevR (multi-sig addresses always start with a '3', regular addresses with a '1'). You can verify that I made the transaction here

To spend any of the bitcoin from this address a transaction must be signed by 3 of 4 keys. I have 2 of the keys, makeorbrake has 1 and courageoussteve has 1. Even though I created the original wallet, I never saw their keys, they were created locally on their devices. The multi-signature functionality is enforced by the bitcoin protocol itself, not the copay app. We could theoretically import our keys into a different wallet software and still make transactions.

I'll let makeorbrake and courageoussteve guys make a transaction each from the shared wallet to whatever address you like, just keep them to 5,000 bits or under so there's still some in the wallet.

alb

Someone else just sent 3,700 bits to it, who was it

courageoussteve

alb wrote: »

Someone else just sent 3,700 bits to it, who was it

We may never find out

Could I suggest we send some of it to a charity?

Www.rnli.org/howtosupportus/donatenow/Pages/bitcoin.aspx

but the is also the mine sniffing rat people....

alb

Great idea, go ahead and make the transaction.

courageoussteve

alb wrote: »

Great idea, go ahead and make the transaction.

Just created & signed for 5,000bits to go to the RNLI.

alb

courageoussteve wrote: »

Just created & signed for 5,000bits to go to the RNLI.

I signed it with one of my wallets too, I'll leave it for makeorbrake to provide the 3rd final needed signature.

makeorbrake

alb wrote: »

I signed it with one of my wallets too, I'll leave it for makeorbrake to provide the 3rd final needed signature.

Done.

Thanks for that, alb. I had read stuff in recent months with regard to the potential of bitcoin in this regard. It's wonderful to have applied it in real life.

Is this big enough of a U.S.P. to really accelerate the development of bitcoin?

I guess take up will develop faster whereever there are currency jitters eg. Greece, Argentina, etc.

alb

makeorbrake wrote: »

Done.

Thanks for that, alb. I had read stuff in recent months with regard to the potential of bitcoin in this regard. It's wonderful to have applied it in real life.

Is this big enough of a U.S.P. to really accelerate the development of bitcoin?

I guess take up will develop faster whereever there are currency jitters eg. Greece, Argentina, etc.

My pleasure, do you want to go ahead and send the remainder from the wallet to RNLI also? You can see how it works to initiate a multi-sig transaction. Go to "Send" then hit "Send All" in the top right, paste 1PZ5ebvdt43dvRRgRNgBhsq2PwAKN4X6W to the address field.

I don't know what path Bitcoin takes to wider adoption, there are so many aspects to it and things it enables that weren't possible before that I could talk about it all day. Argentinians have lost faith in their currency, and by all accounts are seeing some grass roots adoption now for the store of value use case. There's no real adoption in Greece, but the fact that people's money has been frozen and may even be partially confiscated or converted to a devalued drachma is definitely making people more aware of the risks of the legacy system.

Look at what we just did. You, courageoussteve and I are strangers, we're probably all in Ireland (I am) but I don't know for sure where you guys are. We created a joint monetary account, two of us deposited funds to it. No one could prevent that, seize it or prevent us from spending it. We donated it to a charity, and that transaction has already cleared in a way that is irreversible. We can prove beyond a doubt to anyone that we did this, the evidence is in the blockchain, in a way that will hold up in a court of law. We did all this on a weekend. We could have done this even if one or all of us were in Greece. We used a small amount but it would have worked the same, at the same cost for any amount.

Capt'n Midnight

One development is that organisations are storing data using bitcoin transactions.

It's a very cheap way for them to rubber stamp something using a micropayment and include the data in the transaction record that's now added to the blockchain. Stuff like itemising all their assets and creating a worldwide backup for a fraction of the cost it would take if they weren't being subsidised by the bitcoin community.

PrzemoF

https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=satoshi&fdid=org.ligi.satoshiproof

"Use the Bitcoin network like a notary. For example if your bike is damaged you can take a photo; then the app sends a small amount of bitcoins (a Satoshi) to a made-up address. If you ever need to prove when the photo was taken, the app can do so by checking the history of the Bitcoin network.

License: GPLv3"

Thargor

Whats to stop me from doing a few thousand micro-transactions this week and using them as an excuse for whatever I want going forward with a bit of editing? Theres better ways to do that kind of thing, ways that would actually stand up in court.