Buying bitcoins

jobless

Pussyhands wrote: »

Nice for the people who bought recently but I bought at 20k

those frowns will be upside down frowns in 2020, maybe sooner

Pussyhands

banie01 wrote: »

Really, you hadn't ever mentioned!
That's a bit of a balls...

The soundest investment advice ever offered was only invest what you can afford to lose, especially in a highly speculative psuedo asset.
Too late now to after time, but Grindle's advice is spot on. Even with yesterday's spike if you believe in BTC as a coin/store of value/currency now is the time to use the price to reduce your average cost.

Quick example, one coin bought in late 2018, 20k
One coin bought now, 7k...
You now own 2 coins at AVG cost of 13.5k.

I took the advice of the people in February and turned off and forgot about it.

I can afford to lose it. Doesn't mean I like losing it.

banie01

Pussyhands wrote: »

I took the advice of the people in February and turned off and forgot about it.

I can afford to lose it. Doesn't mean I like losing it.

Nobody likes losing
Unfortunately in currency speculation there is always a losing side on a trade.
It takes a lot of luck and no little skill to be able to come out ahead.
Especially in a sideways market or a bear.

The options are ride out and hope it rises enough to get you out even or ahead.
Sell at a loss, which I'd never advise unless there was an urgent need for cash
Or take action to mitigate loss and ensure that any upside is achieved quicker than waiting for a new ATH.
But that involves more money and no-one wants to throw good money after bad.

Dohnjoe

This is an important week. If the bears don't cull these rises, then it could mark a move away from the low confidence.

nuac

Dohnjoe wrote: »

This is an important week. If the bears don't cull these rises, then it could mark a move away from the low confidence.

Why is this week more important than any others?

banie01

nuac wrote: »

Why is this week more important than any others?

I'd think it's more that punters are hoping for a period of sustained growth and consolidation above 7k to convince themselves the bear has been slain.
Maybe?

Dohnjoe

nuac wrote: »

Why is this week more important than any others?

The market has been sitting in "shadow" of that giant bull that took place in Dec/Jan.

If the next week is positive, it will mark what would appear to be a departure from that downward trend and could mean the market going up and down based on good/bad news instead of just being ruled by low confidence

If it's negative, then it will take longer to recover

Of course, disclaimer, the market can go any which way. But traders operate to patterns/history and when they feel confident to go up and stay up (instead of just making money going down) then the investors (who drive every bull) will feel more confident

nuac

Thanks, but in Bitcoin have we anything approaching a free market?

Isn't the market controlled and manipulated by those "whales"?













/

petr1

What's the cheapest way to buy now?

Didn't know GDAX was shut...turned in to coinbase pro or something which seems to be down at the minute aswell.

So whats cheapest/easiest now?

Kenny Logins

petr1 wrote: »

What's the cheapest way to buy now?

Didn't know GDAX was shut...turned in to coinbase pro or something which seems to be down at the minute aswell.

So whats cheapest/easiest now?

It's just a re-brand, and works the same.

el diablo

petr1 wrote: »

What's the cheapest way to buy now?

Didn't know GDAX was shut...turned in to coinbase pro or something which seems to be down at the minute aswell.

So whats cheapest/easiest now?

A SEPA transfer to Kraken and put in a limit order is the cheapest in my opinion.

Grumpypants

But kraken falls over every time something big happens and you can neither buy, sell or withdraw. I've lost at least a grand because of it before i closed my account.

Kuva

Grumpypants wrote: »

But kraken falls over every time something big happens and you can neither buy, sell or withdraw. I've lost at least a grand because of it before i closed my account.

Think that happens to all of them?

Tango One

Grumpypants wrote: »

But kraken falls over every time something big happens and you can neither buy, sell or withdraw. I've lost at least a grand because of it before i closed my account.

Is that since all the upgrade work a few months back.

Grumpypants

I gave up on them about 8-9 months ago so not sure if it got better. But volume over all has been so low recently that i don't think it's been tested properly.

makeorbrake

Tango One wrote: »

Is that since all the upgrade work a few months back.

In fairness, I have not heard of them coming in for that sort of criticism since January. Most of them got caught with their pants down back then.

Dohnjoe

nuac wrote: »

Thanks, but in Bitcoin have we anything approaching a free market?

Isn't the market controlled and manipulated by those "whales"?

A free market is inherently manipulated and influenced. By what degree is up for debate. The main issue with this market is that one coin is so dominant and exerts a push/pull on the whole market.

august12

petr1 wrote:

What's the cheapest way to buy now?

Coinbase pro same as gdax, the two are amalgamated into one, you can still do limit buy and sell for free.

Pussyhands

BTC running riot.

dinneenp

Pussyhands wrote: »

BTC running riot.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2018/07/24/bitcoin-just-hit-8000-heres-whats-pushing-it-up/#12e9db8888f5

makeorbrake

Is this just a bull trap? Will the market fall back again if the ETF isn't approved next month? There's no doubt that there's going to be a take back - and wealth will transfer back to the institutions. However, have they cleared enough of the dumb money out of the way?

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Is this just a bull trap? Will the market fall back again if the ETF isn't approved next month? There's no doubt that there's going to be a take back - and wealth will transfer back to the institutions. However, have they cleared enough of the dumb money out of the way?

Absolutely could be, but even a bull trap is better than a drawn out bear (like 2014 to early 2017). Let's say BTC rises steadily for 3 weeks then falls sharply on bad ETF news - as long as the drop isn't "as bad" as the worst point in the last 6 months, then it's good

It shows that the market isn't completely dominated by fear and no confidence and a pattern of rises quickly culled by bears

I think that ETF has a decent chance too, much of the market infrastructure and regulatory aspects simply weren't around 2 or 3 years ago. Even if it fails, I wouldn't be surprised to see a successful filing at some point in the future

We'll see - the number one thing about this market is how unexpected it is

Pussyhands

What is the idea of the ETF exactly? What would it do?

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Absolutely could be, but even a bull trap is better than a drawn out bear (like 2014 to early 2017). Let's say BTC rises steadily for 3 weeks then falls sharply on bad ETF news - as long as the drop isn't "as bad" as the worst point in the last 6 months, then it's good

I guess so - albeit that I'm not all that bothered so long as the actual technology itself is being worked on. Markets correct themselves one way or another. A long grinding bear market is boring I'd imagine from a speculators point of view but if the tech delivers, it will manifest itself in the markets at some stage in any event.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I think that ETF has a decent chance too, much of the market infrastructure and regulatory aspects simply weren't around 2 or 3 years ago.

It's literally impossible to know. In reviewing the material that's being put out there, media are now relying on reports from a former SEC employee and from another current employee....very tenuous stuff. There can't be any confidence in it going either way. I'd be inclined towards a negative as they don't usually approve an ETF at the first attempt (and whilst there have been many other crypto etf applications, this is the first from the CBOE). They would usually request further clarification or kick the can down the road and delay the decision.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Even if it fails, I wouldn't be surprised to see a successful filing at some point in the future

Without a doubt. Its an inevitability - and I don't think it will be long...it just doesn't sound like it will be this time to me. I suppose I'm also working on the hunch (and of course it's no more than that!) that the old money wants to drive out the young $ - before they move in to the space.
For those of us that have been following this space over the past year (and longer), it may seem like an age since the madness of Dec/Jan but it's not really that long ago. People by nature don't have much in the way of patience. There simply doesn't seem to be any way of proving it but I would not be in any way surprised if this is a final bull trap to clear out the dumb money. Only time will tell though.

In the meantime, I'm just wondering on how best to approach the decision day. Presumably we should see some fall back if it's knocked back...i'm less sure what a 45 day delay will do?? ...as regards a confirmation, its clear what that will do. Has anyone tried to get in on the action at the time of a decision confirmation? Presumably things move in the space of a milisecond?

Not having touched the market since January, I went back in for a week - and made a 17% gain (on 15% of funds...i'm not mad enough to go all in!). However, I missed the overnight pump which would have more or less doubled that. I'll be thankful for what I got but there's a lot to learn for those of us not used to the ways of markets (and highly volatile markets at that).

makeorbrake

Pussyhands wrote: »

What is the idea of the ETF exactly? What would it do?

The ETF makes speculation on bitcoin/crypto possible for institutional investors. The established money have systems in place and ways of working. They won't rock up with a hardware wallet and go onto coinbase and buy crypto!

So...if an exchange (in this case the CBOE) or a fund is given permission to list an exchange traded fund, that opens up the market to institutional money. Crypto has been unique in that it's possibly the first time in history that an emerging market has been brought up the way by grass roots - without a cent of institutional money. They missed out on the initial party - they don't want to continue to leave money on the table.

Crypto market cap is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. However, if that sort of buying power was let loose on it, the likelihood is that the price will be driven up.

The only thing that confuses me is that we already have an ETF (GBTC) - its just not under the watch of the SEC and not on the 1st tier markets. It makes me wonder what the fuss is all about as this fund is available to institutions is it not? I don't have the background in the whole trading game to understand that. Perhaps someone else here does??

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

In the meantime, I'm just wondering on how best to approach the decision day. Presumably we should see some fall back if it's knocked back...i'm less sure what a 45 day delay will do?? ...as regards a confirmation, its clear what that will do. Has anyone tried to get in on the action at the time of a decision confirmation? Presumably things move in the space of a milisecond?

With this one I have no idea, I typically look at a similar situation in the past and then apply the rule of traders being one (or two) steps ahead of that, with hindsight

Not having touched the market since January, I went back in for a week - and made a 17% gain (on 15% of funds...i'm not mad enough to go all in!). However, I missed the overnight pump which would have more or less doubled that. I'll be thankful for what I got but there's a lot to learn for those of us not used to the ways of markets (and highly volatile markets at that).

Best advice for long term holding stands up well, buy when no one else is talking about crypto and everyone is selling. Yeah to time that is the tricky part, but there's no harm mitigating the risk by buying in stages

Grumpypants

Certainly, some green shoots around after the long winter. The Goldman sachs' news last week, Google and Facebook lifting their Crypto bans this week and a general turn in sentiment has seen a little bump. Take it nice and handy now and trickle its way back to the moon.

yoshimitsu

makeorbrake wrote: »

The ETF makes speculation on bitcoin/crypto possible for institutional investors. The established money have systems in place and ways of working. They won't rock up with a hardware wallet and go onto coinbase and buy crypto!

So...if an exchange (in this case the CBOE) or a fund is given permission to list an exchange traded fund, that opens up the market to institutional money. Crypto has been unique in that it's possibly the first time in history that an emerging market has been brought up the way by grass roots - without a cent of institutional money. They missed out on the initial party - they don't want to continue to leave money on the table.

Crypto market cap is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. However, if that sort of buying power was let loose on it, the likelihood is that the price will be driven up.

The only thing that confuses me is that we already have an ETF (GBTC) - its just not under the watch of the SEC and not on the 1st tier markets. It makes me wonder what the fuss is all about as this fund is available to institutions is it not? I don't have the background in the whole trading game to understand that. Perhaps someone else here does??

It's important to point out that "institutional investors" largely invest retail/pension money. It's not that Goldman Sachs, Blackrock and all other players that have expressed interest in cryptos over the last few months will be investing material money out of their own balance sheet. Blackrock is the world's largest asset manager (6.3 trillion dollars in assets under management)... those funds are the savings of retail investors, pension funds (which ultimately belong to individual workers), university endowment funds and some sovereign wealth funds (rich governments). A SEC approved ETF allows these people to get an exposure to the crypto asset class in a regulated/supervised vehicle. It may be fine for us to dibble and dabble through coinbase/kraken/revolut/robin hood and the likes but if you are a high net worth individual or a large pension fund you dont want your account hacked, or a local regulator imposing bans/limits or all the other shenanigans that happened in the past. you want to buy a security (that's ultimately what an ETF is) that -although it may be very volatile in value - has limited risk of fraud/failure. If you're Blackrock, you want to avoid being sued by your customers because you bought cryptos through non-legit way. A SEC regulated ETF avoids that risk.
There was a Global Wealth Management report put out by CapGemini recently (I think it's freely available on the web) that found a strong interest, in particular from Asian institutional investors, to acquire an exposure to cryptos as part of diversified portfolio of stocks, bonds, real estate, commodities and all other traditional asset classes. It may not be a predominant exposure but people are starting to realize that the returns on cyrptos can be attractive but in particular they are not correlated to the returns of most other established asset classes, so they provide diversification = less risk in a diversified portfolio. So if trump starts an all out global trade war, if the Fed decides to hike rates by 300 basis points, if Oil prices collapse because Iran is allowed to export more... crypto returns shouldnt be affected and may provide an important hedge in your portfolio.

I work in the asset management industry and - believe me - the above is a very powerful proposition.
As to how to trade the event, I have no clue! I bought my first bitcoin in Dec 2017 and have held on to it through the ups (and especially) downs so I dont feel I'm entitled to give any meaningful/reliable advice. General rule of investing though is that you have to look at risk/reward and given the strong bounce from the lows I wouldn't be going into the event (the SEC decision) with a full load. just my 2c... interested in getting feedback from more experienced traders

makeorbrake

yoshimitsu wrote: »

A SEC approved ETF allows these people to get an exposure to the crypto asset class in a regulated/supervised vehicle. It may be fine for us to dibble and dabble through coinbase/kraken/revolut/robin hood and the likes but if you are a high net worth individual or a large pension fund you dont want your account hacked, or a local regulator imposing bans/limits or all the other shenanigans that happened in the past. you want to buy a security (that's ultimately what an ETF is) that -although it may be very volatile in value - has limited risk of fraud/failure. If you're Blackrock, you want to avoid being sued by your customers because you bought cryptos through non-legit way. A SEC regulated ETF avoids that risk.

I accept that completely - i.e. they would be deemed to be negligent to use the exchanges that we use in their current format. However, are you saying then that simply because it doesn't come under the auspices of the SEC, the Bitcoin Investment Trust (GBTC) could not be used by these institutions for investment purposes for the same reasons?

yoshimitsu wrote: »

It may not be a predominant exposure but people are starting to realize that the returns on cyrptos can be attractive but in particular they are not correlated to the returns of most other established asset classes, so they provide diversification = less risk in a diversified portfolio. So if trump starts an all out global trade war, if the Fed decides to hike rates by 300 basis points, if Oil prices collapse because Iran is allowed to export more... crypto returns shouldnt be affected and may provide an important hedge in your portfolio.

Trying to educate myself on this world but from what I can figure out, it seems to me to be the perfect hedge (or at least equal to any other hedge that's currently being used). I think the next true test of bitcoin is the next major market slump and to what extent people use it as a shelter from a major bear market.

yoshimitsu wrote: »

As to how to trade the event, I have no clue! I bought my first bitcoin in Dec 2017 and have held on to it through the ups (and especially) downs so I dont feel I'm entitled to give any meaningful/reliable advice. General rule of investing though is that you have to look at risk/reward and given the strong bounce from the lows I wouldn't be going into the event (the SEC decision) with a full load. just my 2c... interested in getting feedback from more experienced traders

I take your point. In my own scenario, I've kind of being forced to go back in to crypto in order to extract my $ from an exchange and make it available to invest in the conventional market (I'll spare you the tedium of why..but it's just something related to the shortcomings of existing crypto exchanges).

Other than that, there's so much 'buy the rumour, sell on the news' going on. This (the SEC decision) was known about a long time ago....so how is it suddenly a dramatic piece of news the last few days..

yoshimitsu

makeorbrake wrote: »

I accept that completely - i.e. they would be deemed to be negligent to use the exchanges that we use in their current format. However, are you saying then that simply because it doesn't come under the auspices of the SEC, the Bitcoin Investment Trust (GBTC) could not be used by these institutions for investment purposes for the same reasons?

Well in my firm for example we are only allowed to buy units/shares in UCITS funds/ETFs. UCITS is a EU directive that regulates these instruments much in the same way that an SEC approval would. Just a few examples: there are minimum liquidity requirements; funds have to be open-ended and easily redeemable; funds have to segregated between the ETF manager and custodian; etc. I'm not too familiar with GBTC but I know it's traded over-the-counter rather than on an exchange and liquidity is quite limited.