School teacher commits suicide after Daily Mail attacks her for being trans.

Links234

http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2013/03/trans-woman-commits-suicide-after-being-bullied-by-the-daily-mail/

this is just sickening and tragic, Lucy Meadows a school teacher was found dead in her home on tuesday the 19th. Richard Littlejohn had previously wrote a vicious tirade about her because she was transgender, and other papers had a field day too.

I'm at a loss for words really, people having their names publically dragged through the mud by rags like the Mail and the Sun for nothing more than being trans it seems is just par the course. it's happened to people I know. but I just can't understand if someone transitions and wants to just get on with their lives, why the press seem to want to not only make sure everyone knows about their own private medical issues, but also ridicule them on a national level. it's almost as if they can't stand the idea of transgender people living amongst the muggles unsuspected and feel the need to expose them. it's not so long ago the Sun was offering a reward to anyone who could out a trans man in the UK. it disgusts me just how predatory these kinds of papers are

I just don't know... here's a quote from comedian Bethany Black from her facebook page:

People ask me why I'm so open about being trans. "Why tell people if it's none of their business?" I get asked fairly frequently. I am out and open about being a trans woman because it's still rare enough that someone deciding to transition is enough for the Daily Mail to think it's okay to out them publicly and call it "news" they think it's okay to allow someone like Richard Littlejohn to do a hate piece on them. Well on Tuesday Lucy Meadows who was a primary school teacher from Accrington who happened to be trans and the victim of this from the Daily Mail and Richard Littlejohn who was just starting out on her transition was found dead at her home. A suspected suicide. She was aged 32.

This is why I am out. This is why I tell people. And this is why I'm ****ing angry.

GalwayGuy2

That's depressing

PhysiologyRocks

That's awful on so many levels.

First of all, that anyone felt they had the right to judge/pass comment in the first place. Second of all, that they'd publicise it. And third of all, that it ended in this.

Transgender issues seem to be some of those issues that everyone thinks they have a right to express opinions (many of which are just plain mean/stupid) on, in spite of the vast majority having no experience of these issues whatsoever.

In general, if people would just live and let live, it would save a lot of perfectly decent people a lot of grief.

Wibbs

I'm not so much as bloody :mad: As for Littlejohn? He's a prize gobshíte and yes I'll stand by that in a court of law and no judge would rule against me as the evidence is both clear and overwhelming in scale.

Madam_X

Here is an example of the depths to which that warped **** Littlejohn will stoop: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-423549/Littlejohn-Spare-Peoples-Prostitute-routine-.html

And no it's not satire... :-/

confusticated

Madam_X wrote: »

Here is an example of the depths to which that warped **** Littlejohn will stoop: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-423549/Littlejohn-Spare-Peoples-Prostitute-routine-.html

And no it's not satire... :-/

:eek: and 170 people liked it on facebook below...there are no words. Does he actually believe this rubbish himself?

drunkmonkey

From reading that article, he did have a point, that situation should not have played out in a class room.
To quote one parent,
"‘My middle boy thinks that he might wake up with a girl’s brain because he was told that Mr Upton, as he got older, got a girl’s brains"

Watching a man transform into a woman isn't something that should have happened in a class room. There is a duty of care to children that seems to have got lost somewhere here.
I have a certain sympathy for the school, what way were they meant to handle the situation. It couldn't have ended any worse, they young children now have another adult issue "suicide" to deal with that they shouldn't. Its a tragedy for all involved.

Lyaiera

What would you suggest instead? What if the person became paralysed? Should kids not have to deal with someone ending up in a wheelchair?

Why should any of this be hidden? Kids deal with things they're not able to fully understand every day, and they deal with it well. Telling the child "as Mr Upton got older he got a girls brain" was stupid because it was incorrect. What if one of those kids was trans themselves and their teacher was shunned. How would that child come to terms with their transness?

Scarinae

I don't know about that, the parents could have just told their son that it doesn't happen that way, that he'd probably already know if he had a 'girl's brain'. If we all knew a bit more about transgender issues maybe our society would be more accepting.

I don't really understand why there was an article about her in the first place, does the Daily Mail often write stories attacking ordinary people? I already knew they're vicious about people in the public eye

Annasopra

I read something the other day where someone said - oh yeah - my parents call it the Hate Mail

karl_m

Hopefully this paves the way for people transitioning and finished transitioning to be protected from such vile and insulting attacks. When a young woman just wants to live her own life but gets attacked for it, even though, I assume, the school knew of her transitioning. It's horrible.

I hope the appropriate course of action is taken now to stop another of those articles being published again.

She was not hurting anyone, she just wanted to be happy.

drunkmonkey

Lyaiera wrote: »

What would you suggest instead? What if the person became paralysed? Should kids not have to deal with someone ending up in a wheelchair?

Why should any of this be hidden? Kids deal with things they're not able to fully understand every day, and they deal with it well. Telling the child "as Mr Upton got older he got a girls brain" was stupid because it was incorrect. What if one of those kids was trans themselves and their teacher was shunned. How would that child come to terms with their transness?

You've a lot of what if's there and the wheelchair is in no way a like for like comparison, the simple fact of the matter is nobody sends their 10 year old to learn about transgenderism and certainly not suicide, there's a duty of care to children that was ignored here by the school probably because of a fear of legal action and un-wanted publicity.
The school done right by the teacher here, Maybe it would be better that she changed schools and took a leave of absence, but sadly that wouldn't be pc correct to suggest, the school should have been able to force it though, in the best interests of the kids without fear of retribution.

Scarinae

How is it against the 'best interest' of kids?

Annasopra

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You've a lot of what if's there and the wheelchair is in no way a like for like comparison, the simple fact of the matter is nobody sends their 10 year old to learn about transgenderism and certainly not suicide, there's a duty of care to children that was ignored here by the school probably because of a fear of legal action and un-wanted publicity.
The school done right by the teacher here, Maybe it would be better that she changed schools and took a leave of absence, but sadly that wouldn't be pc correct to suggest, the school should have been able to force it though, in the best interests of the kids without fear of retribution.

So basically schools should pretend trans people don't exist?

drunkmonkey

mango salsa wrote: »

So basically schools should pretend trans people don't exist?

That's not what I said, my point was If somebody want's to transition from one sex to another they should not do it in front of classrooms of young children.

karl_m

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You've a lot of what if's there and the wheelchair is in no way a like for like comparison, the simple fact of the matter is nobody sends their 10 year old to learn about transgenderism and certainly not suicide, there's a duty of care to children that was ignored here by the school probably because of a fear of legal action and un-wanted publicity.
The school done right by the teacher here, Maybe it would be better that she changed schools and took a leave of absence, but sadly that wouldn't be pc correct to suggest, the school should have been able to force it though, in the best interests of the kids without fear of retribution.

You do realize that the number of people having sex changes on the NHS has tripled between 2000 and 2008,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7613567/Number-of-NHS-sex-change-operations-triples.html

I believe it's fair to say when a person of young teens can begin HRT (hormone) treatment to begin transitioning, that children, will eventually, be thought about transgenders at a young age. That might, hopefully, aide the frankly disgusting views some people have of transgenders.

Lyaiera

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You've a lot of what if's there and the wheelchair is in no way a like for like comparison, the simple fact of the matter is nobody sends their 10 year old to learn about transgenderism and certainly not suicide, there's a duty of care to children that was ignored here by the school probably because of a fear of legal action and un-wanted publicity.
The school done right by the teacher here, Maybe it would be better that she changed schools and took a leave of absence, but sadly that wouldn't be pc correct to suggest, the school should have been able to force it though, in the best interests of the kids without fear of retribution.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say, "In the best interest of the kids." Disappear their teacher because of something perfectly normal? That's a pretty sick society where you hide that kind of thing from kids. It stinks of the attitude there was to pregnant teachers here. Their place is in the home looking after their own kids so they shouldn't be around other people's, it's not their place. Or hiding gay couples from kids because gay sex is disgusting and not as though a simple, "They're two people in love" wouldn't suffice.

karl_m wrote: »

You do realize that the number of people having sex changes on the NHS has tripled between 2000 and 2008,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7613567/Number-of-NHS-sex-change-operations-triples.html

I believe it's fair to say when a person of young teens can begin HRT (hormone) treatment to begin transitioning, that children, will eventually, be thought about transgenders at a young age. That might, hopefully, aide the frankly disgusting views some people have of transgenders.

I know you don't mean anything by it but it's better to say, "transgender people" or "transgender man" or "transgender woman." Calling people "transgenders" isn't the best. It's an adjective, not a noun.

Annasopra

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's not what I said, my point was If somebody want's to transition from one sex to another they should not do it in front of classrooms of young children.

Why?

karl_m

Lyaiera wrote: »

I know you don't mean anything by it but it's better to say, "transgender people" or "transgender man" or "transgender woman." Calling people "transgenders" isn't the best. It's an adjective, not a noun.

I apologize, I'm new to this topic and wasn't aware of the right terms, thank you.

drunkmonkey

mango salsa wrote: »

Why?

Because it's not normal for Sir to come back as Miss after the the holidays. Can you not see the disruption that would cause in the school, let alone the ridicule the teacher would subject to. Transferring schools wouldn't be the worst idea in the world, might have even saved a life.

rainbow kirby

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Because it's not normal for Sir to come back as Miss after the the holidays. Can you not see the disruption that would cause in the school, let alone the ridicule the teacher would subject to. Transferring schools wouldn't be the worst idea in the world, might have even saved a life.

You've made your point, no need to get on a soapbox. If you have nothing new to add to this thread beyond "it's not normal" or "won't someone please think of the children" do not post in this thread again.

Lyaiera

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Because it's not normal for Sir to come back as Miss after the the holidays. Can you not see the disruption that would cause in the school, let alone the ridicule the teacher would subject to. Transferring schools wouldn't be the worst idea in the world, might have even saved a life.

It depends on your definition of normal. Is it commonplace? Probably not, but even still there's lots of people who have transitioned while in a job. Does it happen as part of normal human society? Yes, and it's perfectly normal in that sense.

Now, if you had addressed this in a different manner, and said that it could have been easier for her to enter a new role entirely transitioned (which is sort of possible) then you'd have a lot more support. But you started on about how this was bad for the kids, not with concern for the poor woman. So that kind of rules you out of the "considerate" department.

And I don't know how you're talking about disruption. From what I've seen young kids seem to deal with this type of thing easier than anyone else. "Oh, our teacher wants to be a girl? Cool, it's nice you can do that if you want." "Oh, our teacher is marrying a man instead of a woman? Well, obviously. You marry who you love." "Oh, our teacher was in a car crash and can't walk? Of course we should have ramps into the school." Kids deal with this stuff out of curiousty, and come to terms with it quickly.

drunkmonkey

Lyaiera wrote: »

It depends on your definition of normal. Is it commonplace? Probably not, but even still there's lots of people who have transitioned while in a job. Does it happen as part of normal human society? Yes, and it's perfectly normal in that sense.

Now, if you had addressed this in a different manner, and said that it could have been easier for her to enter a new role entirely transitioned (which is sort of possible) then you'd have a lot more support. But you started on about how this was bad for the kids, not with concern for the poor woman. So that kind of rules you out of the "considerate" department.

And I don't know how you're talking about disruption. From what I've seen young kids seem to deal with this type of thing easier than anyone else. "Oh, our teacher wants to be a girl? Cool, it's nice you can do that if you want." "Oh, our teacher is marrying a man instead of a woman? Well, obviously. You marry who you love." "Oh, our teacher was in a car crash and can't walk? Of course we should have ramps into the school." Kids deal with this stuff out of curiousty, and come to terms with it quickly.

Your correct there, we have all different ideas of "normal", common/popular would probably be better words.
You've understood my point that I think it would have been better to enter a new role transitioned, you've worded it a bit better though.
The disruption is only from what i've witnessed myself growing up and I currently see from school children so I believe it's a real issue to be taken on board when changing in school.

Zombrex

drunkmonkey wrote: »

From reading that article, he did have a point, that situation should not have played out in a class room.
To quote one parent,
"‘My middle boy thinks that he might wake up with a girl’s brain because he was told that Mr Upton, as he got older, got a girl’s brains"

Watching a man transform into a woman isn't something that should have happened in a class room.

Damn right!

A class room is no place for children to learn and be educated about the world around them!

:rolleyes:

drunkmonkey

Zombrex wrote: »

Damn right!

A class room is no place for children to learn and be educated about the world around them!

:rolleyes:

If your going to introduce something outside of the curriculum then it should go before the parent/teacher boards. In this case it went out on the Christmas letter, I just think the whole thing was handled appallingly.

Kids are amazingly accepting. It's generally adults who have the problem. I teach and mind little kids, and they're generally satisfied with any answer I give them as long as they sense that it's genuine. I was at a cafe the other day with two of the little Spanish girls I mind and one of them asked why the man at the next table was holding hands with another man. I just said 'some men have boyfriends, not girlfriends'. She asked why that was and I said no reason, just that people are different and like different things. She was happy with that. I checked with her mam later and her mam was happy with that explanation. My mam would have shushed me and got embarrassed. Not because she's homophobic, but because she's from a generation where being gay was taboo. I remember feeling confused about why it was 'funny' for men to like other men. I think adults overcomplicate things.

Zombrex

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If your going to introduce something outside of the curriculum then it should go before the parent/teacher boards. In this case it went out on the Christmas letter, I just think the whole thing was handled appallingly.

Teachers deal with things "outside of the curriculum" all the time. When I was in primary school we had a death of a child, a death of a parent, a new student from a foreign country (France, exotic when you are 10), students from different religions with different religious holidays and practices, and black students joining the class (which for the 1980s was again pretty exotic). The teachers handled all of these things perfectly fine.

Teaching children about life is part of what being a teacher is all about, and transgender people are part of this world, I can think of no better way for students to learn about this than from a teacher that they already respect and trust.

I'm at a complete loss why anyone would think that students need to be shielded from this (what, are people worried about them turning them trans?), it seems if anything the perfect way to educate students about transgender people.

drunkmonkey

Zombrex wrote: »

it seems if anything the perfect way to educate students about transgender people.

This story has kind of suggested that it may not be the best way, the thread title is misleading, "teacher commits suicide after Daily mail attack". There is no evidence to suggest that the daily mail are to blame, it just happened after the article, it could have just as easily of been some cruel word in school, we don't know, the author is speculating and has no evidence.

Nobody is saying that kids shouldn't be educated, but suggesting watching the transition live is probably at the upper end of the spectrum.

Zombrex

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This story has kind of suggested that it may not be the best way, the thread title is misleading, "teacher commits suicide after Daily mail attack". There is no evidence to suggest that the daily mail are to blame, it just happened after the article, it could have just as easily of been some cruel word in school, we don't know, the author is speculating and has no evidence.

I agree, in fact I would imagine it does nothing but inflate Littlejohn's ego to suggest that the suicide was the solely down to the article, this teacher could have been suffering from depression for all we know.

But that isn't relevant to the point I'm making though, that I see absolutely no reason why this teacher shouldn't have gone back to teaching, while introducing the children to transgender people.

So far no one has put forward a reason why this would be bad other than it might be confusing for the children, to which I think if children aren't being confused in school they aren't learning anything.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nobody is saying that kids shouldn't be educated, but suggesting watching the transition live is probably at the upper end of the spectrum.

And ... ? What, the children will be too educated? They will understand the subject too well?

What kind of silly excuse is that? Wish I could have had that excuse when I was in school, I would love to read Shakespeare but I think that is probably too close to the upper end of the spectrum of learning about Shakespeare, so better not teacher. :pac:

drunkmonkey

The teacher never left teaching though, the school accommodated her. It turned out to be a disaster. Your suggesting we do the same thing again as its good for children. I'm not fully with you on that.

Das Kitty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The teacher never left teaching though, the school accommodated her. It turned out to be a disaster. Your suggesting we do the same thing again as its good for children. I'm not fully with you on that.

What on earth does that have to do with the daily mail's persecution of an individual?

clairefontaine

I find it hard to believe someone killed themselves over a newspaper article. It may have been a tipping point but not a cause.

As for transgenders teaching in primary school, this would all depend on the community the school is in, the age of the children etc.

Zombrex

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The teacher never left teaching though, the school accommodated her. It turned out to be a disaster. Your suggesting we do the same thing again as its good for children. I'm not fully with you on that.

I'm sorry, I'm not following your point. Are you saying we shouldn't let transgender people teach because they will kill themselves and traumatize their students?

Pawwed Rig

clairefontaine wrote: »

I find it hard to believe someone killed themselves over a newspaper article. It may have been a tipping point but not a cause.

It would be a significant tipping point though. To put Lucy's personal issues in the national newspaper is a violation of her. To be put under such a level of scrutiny can break anyone. Not only is she dealing with her bodily issues but now has to worry about her professional career.

I personally think it would be a very valuable learning experience for the kids. They have to encounter these issues at some stage and imho the earlier they encounter them will normalise it for them and make more accepting human beings.

Absolutely tragic situation.

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The teacher never left teaching though, the school accommodated her. It turned out to be a disaster. Your suggesting we do the same thing again as its good for children. I'm not fully with you on that.

It was a disaster because this poor teacher who was minding her own business got destroyed in the press by some bigot.

I see the DM has the story online now. Comments are closed. Wonder why.

LittleBook

Jane Fae wrote:

You know progress has been made, when Richard Littlejohn, scourge of the politically correct, can be found writing relatively encouragingly about such matters. But. Ah yes: there’s always a but. While transphobia has become increasingly unacceptable, there remains that last line of reactionary defence: “just think of the children”.

I'm so tired of this bullshít. It's become the last refuge of adults who are afraid of anything and everything that challenges their tiny-minded world view.

I'm also reserving a lot of anger and a bit of hate for that dumb@ss dad who presumably brought the story to the Daily Mail and is apparently incapable of explaining the situation to his kid.

‘My middle boy thinks that he might wake up with a girl’s brain because he was told that Mr Upton, as he got older, got a girl’s brains,’ the 35-year-old decorator said.

I wonder how he'll sleep tonight.

eviltwin

The whole thing just sickens me. Aren't there laws to protect people from this kind of thing? Lucy wasn't a celebrity or public figure so how is it allowed that she can be put in a national newspaper in this way

clairefontaine

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It would be a significant tipping point though. To put Lucy's personal issues in the national newspaper is a violation of her. To be put under such a level of scrutiny can break anyone. Not only is she dealing with her bodily issues but now has to worry about her professional career.

I personally think it would be a very valuable learning experience for the kids. They have to encounter these issues at some stage and imho the earlier they encounter them will normalise it for them and make more accepting human beings.

Absolutely tragic situation.

It still depends on the age of the kids and their community. Could you imagine this in rural Ireland where even not taking your communion makes you stand out?

The thing is, it's not normal, it's an abberation. So for me it's not a case of normalising it, it's a case of the commmunity's attitude to difference. For kids, pointing out "you're different" is often an insult, often a predicator to rejection or a justification for it. The less difference the children are exposed to, the harder something like this will be. So I still stand that it really does depend on the community.

When kids are really young, like five or six, how do you really explain how your teacher transforms before your eyes from one gender to another? This might work in cosmopolitan contexts like NYC, but not smaller or more parochial ones.

Encountering something sooner or later, is not really a good reason. We will all encounter things sooner or later, but you have to be age sensitive to what they can process.

I know a little boy who refused to bathe after seeing that ad about the African children dying in dirty bathwater. He was too young to understand what it was all about, so he processed it thinking the bath would kill him.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

The whole thing just sickens me. Aren't there laws to protect people from this kind of thing? Lucy wasn't a celebrity or public figure so how is it allowed that she can be put in a national newspaper in this way

Nope. It's hard to get done for this sort of thing, the newspapers have lawyers who know what they're doing. The Daily Mail do this stuff all the time. Demonise some random person. I can't count the number of times I've read a 'news story' with loads of photos pulled off Facebook about a random woman who had an affair with a random guy, prompting her husband to commit suicide. The person is then attacked in the comments section. Anything that goes through the courts is fair game for a story and even plenty of things that don't.

A lot of people think I'm a paranoid loon for hating video/camera phones, but seriously, they have destroyed any concept of privacy. Imagine you're a mum of two kids. A toddler and a new born baby. You're at the park having a nice walk when your toddler's shoelace comes undone. You bend over to help him tie it, but you're so tired you forget to put the brakes on the pram and the pram rolls down towards the lake....oh no! You manage to run and grab it just in time and everything is fine. Ten years ago, you might have attracted a tut or a 'silly woman' from a passerby. Today, it's quite likely that you'll be filmed, the video uploaded to the internet, found by a Daily Mail 'journalist' who makes up a story out of it along with a headline making you out to be an unfit parent and thousands of people will comment on what an awful person you are and how you should lose your kids. It's not just celebrities anymore, it's EVERYONE. Anyone who lives in the UK is fair game. If you fall over in the street, have an argument with someone on a bus, anything at all, you might well end up featured on the Daily Mail website because some gobsh1te has filmed you without your consent.

It's terrifying. I hate what society has become.

eviltwin

Anderson Many Shot-putter wrote: »

Nope. It's hard to get done for this sort of thing, the newspapers have lawyers who know what they're doing. The Daily Mail do this stuff all the time. Demonise some random person. I can't count the number of times I've read a 'news story' with loads of photos pulled off Facebook about a random woman who had an affair with a random guy, prompting her husband to commit suicide. The person is then attacked in the comments section. Anything that goes through the courts is fair game for a story and even plenty of things that don't.

A lot of people think I'm a paranoid loon for hating video/camera phones, but seriously, they have destroyed any concept of privacy. Imagine you're a mum of two kids. A toddler and a new born baby. You're at the park having a nice walk when your toddler's shoelace comes undone. You bend over to help him tie it, but you're so tired you forget to put the brakes on the pram and the pram rolls down towards the lake....oh no! You manage to run and grab it just in time and everything is fine. Ten years ago, you might have attracted a tut or a 'silly woman' from a passerby. Today, it's quite likely that you'll be filmed, the video uploaded to the internet, found by a Daily Mail 'journalist' who makes up a story out of it along with a headline making you out to be an unfit parent and thousands of people will comment on what an awful person you are and how you should lose your kids. It's not just celebrities anymore, it's EVERYONE. Anyone who lives in the UK is fair game. If you fall over in the street, have an argument with someone on a bus, anything at all, you might well end up featured on the Daily Mail website because some gobsh1te has filmed you without your consent.

It's terrifying. I hate what society has become.

Yep you've just reminded me of the reason I stopped reading that website. A lot of the stories on the main page are about normal people just living their lives but open to scuntiny because they don't fit into the narrow view of what is acceptable to the DM.

I think I read somewhere that the DM's website is the most popular news site on the internet. People seem to lap this kind of stuff up. Yes the papers shouldn't print it but I suppose its money for old rope in their case, readers like reading it and passing judgement. I guess the DM have no reason to stop.

vitani

clairefontaine wrote: »

It still depends on the age of the kids and their community. Could you imagine this in rural Ireland where even not taking your communion makes you stand out?

The thing is, it's not normal, it's an abberation. So for me it's not a case of normalising it, it's a case of the commmunity's attitude to difference. For kids, pointing out "you're different" is often an insult, often a predicator to rejection or a justification for it. The less difference the children are exposed to, the harder something like this will be. So I still stand that it really does depend on the community.

When kids are really young, like five or six, how do you really explain how your teacher transforms before your eyes from one gender to another? This might work in cosmopolitan contexts like NYC, but not smaller or more parochial ones.

Encountering something sooner or later, is not really a good reason. We will all encounter things sooner or later, but you have to be age sensitive to what they can process.

I know a little boy who refused to bathe after seeing that ad about the African children dying in dirty bathwater. He was too young to understand what it was all about, so he processed it thinking the bath would kill him.

There was a really good comment after the original article on the Daily Mail. The author's young child had asked a question about a transgendered person and so she explained that some people are born with girl's brains but a boy's body (or vice versa). She then asked her daughter if she felt like she had a girl's brain and when the daughter said yes, she asked her would she like it if she had the same brain but had a boy's body. The immediate response was 'no, yuck!'

A very simple, very effective explanation (IMO) and if/when the issue comes up with my own daughter, I'll be trying something similar.

clairefontaine

vitani wrote: »

There was a really good comment after the original article on the Daily Mail. The author's young child had asked a question about a transgendered person and so she explained that some people are born with girl's brains but a boy's body (or vice versa). She then asked her daughter if she felt like she had a girl's brain and when the daughter said yes, she asked her would she like it if she had the same brain but had a boy's body. The immediate response was 'no, yuck!'

A very simple, very effective explanation (IMO) and if/when the issue comes up with my own daughter, I'll be trying something similar.

Ok but that doesn't make any scientific sense.

What is a girl's brain? What does that mean? Brains now have genders?

vitani

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ok but that doesn't make any scientific sense.

What is a girl's brain? What does that mean? Brains now have genders?

Does it need to make scientific sense? You're trying to put it in language a child can understand.

Links234

Bethany Black has an excellent blog post up about this, it's well worth a read: http://bethanyblack.blogspot.ie/2013/03/they-call-it-climbing-and-we-call-it.html

But she makes a particularly excellent point about people who foist their prejudices on others:

The tone of the Littlejohn piece was "won't someone think of the children?" My brother's children were primary school age when I came out, they saw every step of what I went through, and you know what? They're kids. EVERYTHING'S NEW AND WEIRD TO THEM. They dealt with it. They dealt with it better than they dealt with finding out there's no Santa Claus.

Like with all bigotry, when people can't justify saying "I hate you because I don't understand why you're the way you are and aren't how I want you to be!" They say "I'm alright with it, but I worry about the kids".

Bigots always try to dress their bigotry up in concern, to deflect away from their fundamental fascism that everyone should be more like them and then the world would be alright. It's not and it never will be, and as long as there's people out their like Littlejohn and his fellows, as long as there's people who are scared to death to come out as trans, as long as newspapers think it's news to invade the privacy of trans people, to poke around and go "oooh! look at the freaks!" I will be out. I will be proud and I will fight to my very last breath.

In my own life, I've had people do this kind of thing to me, where they'd pretend they don't have a problem but are concerned about other people. I've had a 'friend' who used to say to me how he didn't have a problem with me, but that other people we knew wouldn't be ok and they'd be "vicious" towards me. So when we were going to have nights out or go over to a friend's house or cinema, etc, he'd tell me that such and such a person would be there and me being so trusting I'd take him at face value because he had been a friend for a long time. So I ended up isolating myself from a lot of friends, and early in my transition was a fairly lonely time for me, I remember one day I broke down in tears all of a sudden and didn't stop crying for the whole day because I had never felt so alone in my entire life. Turns out the people I was being warned about were absolutely cool about me and were far better friends than this guy had been, he wasn't concerned about me he just didn't want me around and was too much of a coward to say it to my face that he had a problem with me.

My mum did something even worse to me when I came out too, I was told that if people "found out" about me, that my sister would lose her job or that her boyfriend would leave her because "he wouldn't be able to cope" with me. She kept going on about how selfish I was being and how I never think of anyone but myself, and she expressed her 'concern' about how I'd be making myself a target and what it's going to do to her. She's come around a hell of a lot, and is pretty supportive now, but at the time you've no idea how much guilt and shame I felt. Well, my sister didn't lose her job and her boyfriend has never had a problem with me and any time we've met up he's been all talk to me.

Also, to the point one poster made about rural Ireland?
Most of my extended family is from rural parts, and my little cousins never had a problem, they were far more understanding than most of the adults in my family. It's an insult to people from rural areas to assume they're automatically going to be more prejudiced, I'd even say that people from small towns are much cooler and accepting than a lot of city folk. Whenever I head with my girlfriend to her home town, most people there are wonderfully nice to us.

This kind of thing, it's concern trolling and whataboutery, and it hurts.

clairefontaine

vitani wrote: »

Does it need to make scientific sense? You're trying to put it in language a child can understand.

Yes it does, if you are a teacher and your job is to educate them.

vitani

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes it does, if you are a teacher and your job is to educate them.

The explanation I referenced was from a mother to a daughter, after the daughter had asked a question about transgendered people.

clairefontaine

Links234 wrote: »

Bethany Black has an excellent blog post up about this, it's well worth a read: http://bethanyblack.blogspot.ie/2013/03/they-call-it-climbing-and-we-call-it.html

But she makes a particularly excellent point about people who foist their prejudices on others:



In my own life, I've had people do this kind of thing to me, where they'd pretend they don't have a problem but are concerned about other people. I've had a 'friend' who used to say to me how he didn't have a problem with me, but that other people we knew wouldn't be ok and they'd be "vicious" towards me. So when we were going to have nights out or go over to a friend's house or cinema, etc, he'd tell me that such and such a person would be there and me being so trusting I'd take him at face value because he had been a friend for a long time. So I ended up isolating myself from a lot of friends, and early in my transition was a fairly lonely time for me, I remember one day I broke down in tears all of a sudden and didn't stop crying for the whole day because I had never felt so alone in my entire life. Turns out the people I was being warned about were absolutely cool about me and were far better friends than this guy had been, he wasn't concerned about me he just didn't want me around and was too much of a coward to say it to my face that he had a problem with me.

My mum did something even worse to me when I came out too, I was told that if people "found out" about me, that my sister would lose her job or that her boyfriend would leave her because "he wouldn't be able to cope" with me. She kept going on about how selfish I was being and how I never think of anyone but myself, and she expressed her 'concern' about how I'd be making myself a target and what it's going to do to her. She's come around a hell of a lot, and is pretty supportive now, but at the time you've no idea how much guilt and shame I felt. Well, my sister didn't lose her job and her boyfriend has never had a problem with me and any time we've met up he's been all talk to me.

Also, to the point one poster made about rural Ireland?
Most of my extended family is from rural parts, and my little cousins never had a problem, they were far more understanding than most of the adults in my family. It's an insult to people from rural areas to assume they're automatically going to be more prejudiced, I'd even say that people from small towns are much cooler and accepting than a lot of city folk. Whenever I head with my girlfriend to her home town, most people there are wonderfully nice to us.

This kind of thing, it's concern trolling and whataboutery, and it hurts.

Are you accusing me of trolling because of the comment I made about rural areas? A comment which does not concur with your experiences but may concur with mine?

Links234

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ok but that doesn't make any scientific sense.

What is a girl's brain? What does that mean? Brains now have genders?

Just to address this, that is pretty much exactly what transsexuality is:

Transsexual gene link identified
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids
Regional Grey Matter Variation in Male-to-Female Transsexualism
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study.
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality
Gender Identity and phantom genitalia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE

The relevant part of the video is at this timestamp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE&feature=player_detailpage#t=5032s

mike65

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2013/mar/22/richard-littlejohn-transgender

In Late December last year, the Accrington Observer reported that a male primary school teacher would be returning after the Christmas break as a woman.

The story said that the head teacher of a Church of England school, St Mary Magdalen's, had notified parents that Nathan Upton would be known in future as Miss Lucy Meadows.

A day later, the Daily Mail's Richard Littlejohn wrote a column headlined "He's not only in the wrong body… he's in the wrong job" in which he asked whether anyone had thought of "the devastating effect" on the pupils of the teacher's change in gender.

Unless something specific has been said/written by the dead woman there is no link to be made.

Pawwed Rig

clairefontaine wrote: »

It still depends on the age of the kids and their community. Could you imagine this in rural Ireland where even not taking your communion makes you stand out?

There are many places in Ireland (not necessarily rural) that need a good kick up the hole and a introduction to the 20th century (we can work on the 21st century afterwards). The younger people are when they realise not everyone is the same the better as when we get older we have already learnt so much from our experiences that we tend to resist change (apologies for the generality but hopefully you see my point).

clairefontaine wrote: »

When kids are really young, like five or six, how do you really explain how your teacher transforms before your eyes from one gender to another?

Very easily. Kids are very adaptable and accepting, it is the parents who more often have the issues.

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know a little boy who refused to bathe after seeing that ad about the African children dying in dirty bathwater. He was too young to understand what it was all about, so he processed it thinking the bath would kill him.

That is why we have parents. They can explain these things to their children

Da Shins Kelly

I actually think the younger the kids are, the better. Young children are not afraid of differences and are really very accepting. If the explanation given is sufficient, they don't seem to have any trouble adapting to it. There's also a better chance then that the kids will grow up knowing that there's nothing wrong with being trans or gay or in anyway different. It's adults and possibly older kids (teenagers) who have trouble dealing with these things. Adults can tend to be quite prejudiced, possibly from growing up in times or environments where gay or trans or whatever was taboo. With teenagers, for the most part they have such a need to fit in that anything "different" can be seized upon for ridicule. I wouldn't have any problem with a trans teacher with children. I actually think it would be a good environment for all involved - the kids will learn something and realise that there's nothing wrong with being trans, and the teacher may have a more accepting environment to be in on a daily basis.