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Pope francis already spouting bullsh1t

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    #62
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,122 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robp wrote: »
    Most people live in urban areas where there is increasingly more options.

    Increasingly more, but still very very small in number, and heavily oversubscribed.
    As I said there is a local oversupply of Catholic schools but this will be corrected over time. Until that point children can obtain schooling in catholic schools without receiving religious formation. The constitution asserts this principle and I have never heard of evidence to the contrary.

    Oh please. There are lots of posters here with real life experience of how this works out in practice.
    Yes in theory you have this right. In practice, you can opt your child out of religious instruction but usually the school will say they have no resources to provide alternative supervision. Unless you or other parents can step in then you're screwed.
    Also the religious ethos schools integrate their mythology throughout the curriculum, so reading a bible story could be an 'English' lesson.
    Some people have reported that they or their kids were ostracised by some parents because their kids opted out of religion, or that principal/teachers passed remarks.
    The ET model is much healthier. Everyone does the same school day, including religious education. Any religious groups who wish to provide religious instruction are free to do so in the school after the school day. No-one is forced to opt out or stigmatise themselves.
    Lets have a glance at the wonderful diversity of patron bodies that would be lost under a one size fits all system.

    I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting mandatory state schools for all with no alternatives permitted.
    But multidenominational schooling with optional religious instruction (a la ET) should be the default option and available to everyone in the state.
    Diversity isn't a bad thing and it isn't adding cost to the exchequer as primary schools are typically small institutions of 150-200 children internationally.

    My kids go to the local CoI school and it's much smaller than that. It would be interesting to compare the average pupil/teacher ratio at RC schools versus minority religion ethos schools. Usually the minority schools are much smaller and have lower P/T ratios as a result.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #63
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Increasingly more, but still very very small in number, and heavily oversubscribed.


    Oh please. There are lots of posters here with real life experience of how this works out in practice.
    Yes in theory you have this right. In practice, you can opt your child out of religious instruction but usually the school will say they have no resources to provide alternative supervision. Unless you or other parents can step in then you're screwed.
    Also the religious ethos schools integrate their mythology throughout the curriculum, so reading a bible story could be an 'English' lesson.
    Some people have reported that they or their kids were ostracised by some parents because their kids opted out of religion, or that principal/teachers passed remarks.
    The ET model is much healthier. Everyone does the same school day, including religious education. Any religious groups who wish to provide religious instruction are free to do so in the school after the school day. No-one is forced to opt out or stigmatise themselves.

    I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting mandatory state schools for all with no alternatives permitted.
    But multidenominational schooling with optional religious instruction (a la ET) should be the default option and available to everyone in the state.

    My kids go to the local CoI school and it's much smaller than that. It would be interesting to compare the average pupil/teacher ratio at RC schools versus minority religion ethos schools. Usually the minority schools are much smaller and have lower P/T ratios as a result.

    You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence. I would have thought you would support treating the Bible as literature in a fiction dominated curriculum. Anyway there is not a shred of evidence that ET is 'healthier' but its when I hear claims that children are 'stigmatised' the mind really boggles. There will always be people opting out for various reasons e.g. migrants opting out of Irish or also supplementary English or remedial classes. There will always be the odd rude parent or teacher. I used to be mocked for having long hair in school, does that mean haircuts should be standardised? Should gay pupils pretend to be straight so that everyone fits in? Is it really healthy that there is no variety?

    Low P/T ratios aught to be encouraged as it is a good thing.


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    #64
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Lucena wrote: »
    I thought you were going to say Alex Ferguson was double-jobbing (guy in red on the extreme right)

    No he's most definitely Ole Rupe, though I cannot see where he put his Wendi.


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    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,122 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robp wrote: »
    You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence.

    Plenty of posters here have posted in this forum about their difficulties with religious schools.

    I would have thought you would support treating the Bible as literature in a fiction dominated curriculum.

    Yes let's have primary kids reading a book with rape, incest, murder, and hellfire as major themes... :rolleyes:
    Anyway there is not a shred of evidence that ET is 'healthier' but its when I hear claims that children are 'stigmatised' the mind really boggles.

    It's healthier because it does not discriminate
    There will always be people opting out for various reasons e.g. migrants opting out of Irish or also supplementary English or remedial classes. There will always be the odd rude parent or teacher. I used to be mocked for having long hair in school, does that mean haircuts should be standardised? Should gay pupils pretend to be straight so that everyone fits in? Is it really healthy that there is no variety?

    What?!?
    Low P/T ratios aught to be encouraged as it is a good thing.

    It is, but when we have balkanisation of the school system we end up with higher costs and less efficiency overall.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #66
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    CerebralCortex wrote: »

    Don't even get me started on the craziness that is a homosexual Catholic.

    I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.


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    #67
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    krudler wrote: »
    I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.

    It's insane. It's an organisation that fundamentally hates what humans are.


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    #68
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    krudler wrote: »
    I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.

    It's because they've been taught to hate themselves. They believe they are flawed and feel shame in the face of God.

    Make someone feel worthless and you own them.


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    #69
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robp wrote: »
    You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence.

    There have been plenty of reports of this type of thing happening, quite a few by people here on boards, but also in the media.

    Whilst there is, technically, an option to opt children out of religious education in a school, it is, in practice not really an option. For example, religious schools use religion in most classes. The indoctrination manual they use encourages teachers to use religious themes in as many classes as possible, so even if your child can be opted out (more on that below) they are not going to be free from religion in school.

    So, opting out. It seems that in many cases the parent must provide alternative supervision for the children that are opted out. I am sure even you must be able to see that this is not a particularly practical solution.

    As for evidence, here is some:

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irate-dad-takes-son-out-of-school-over-prayer-recital-26617869.html

    MrP


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    #70
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    MrPudding wrote: »
    There have been plenty of reports of this type of thing happening, quite a few by people here on boards, but also in the media.

    Whilst there is, technically, an option to opt children out of religious education in a school, it is, in practice not really an option. For example, religious schools use religion in most classes. The indoctrination manual they use encourages teachers to use religious themes in as many classes as possible, so even if your child can be opted out (more on that below) they are not going to be free from religion in school.

    So, opting out. It seems that in many cases the parent must provide alternative supervision for the children that are opted out. I am sure even you must be able to see that this is not a particularly practical solution.

    As for evidence, here is some:

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irate-dad-takes-son-out-of-school-over-prayer-recital-26617869.html

    MrP

    Your still treating gossip and rumour as it reveals the norm. I can assure you it does not. I am well aware of that Leitrim case but a one off case is not at all evidence schools 'usually' fail to cooperate as you so wildly claim. Its not even what you claim is happening as the child was copying prayers on its own accord.

    Very few teachers introduce religion into Irish, English or maths etc classes. In fact I have never heard of that happening these days. Can you show otherwise? Thought not. The reality is the op-out path works for the vast majority of people who use it but most who do are not so evangelical about their secular worldview that they are fixated with denying religious education to those who seek it.


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    #71
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    robp wrote: »
    In fact I have never heard of that happening these days. Can you show otherwise? Thought not. The reality is the op-out path works for the vast majority of people who use it but most who do are not so evangelic about their secular worldview that they are fixated with denying religious education to those who seek it.

    robp wrote: »
    Very few teachers introduce religion into Irish, English or maths etc classes.

    I remember clearly learning about the leanbh Iosa in Irish class. We even got sex education through a religious viewpoint taught by a nun. I also remember huge amount of lost class time in 1st, 5th and 6th classes while all the kids had to prepare for communion/confirmation.

    this article
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/quinn-will-announce-church-to-lose-school-control-29167728.html

    would seem to indicate that the choice is not currently available for many parents.


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