Driving in the middle lane

gubbie

I see it regularly on here, people giving out about those who drive in the middle lane, saying that they should be on the left most lane, that the middle lane is for overtaking.

Now if this was the case and everyone was sitting in the left most lane with the other two lanes being used for overtaking, then wouldn't this result in cars that are merging have a far more difficult time and two almost empty lanes to the right.

Now I normally drive in Cork and it rarely is a problem. I would say that the course of business on a 3 lane road is the left most for merging cars (who then further merge if they're going on further), the middle lane for regular drivers and the right most lane for overtaking.

But cork has much less traffic (yay!). From my experience of driving in Dublin traffic is split between the two leftmost lanes allowing space for merging and leaving.

Seriously, what's so wrong with this?

Mint Sauce

Oh this should be good.

Yes the left lane is used for merging, but it is also the driving lane. The other two are only meant for overtaking, the middle for overtaking the left, and the right for overtaking the middle.

Some do drivers out of curtosy pull into the middle lane to let the merging car enter, but are suppose to rejoin the left lane again as if over taking them, espically if the merging car has not reached the motorway or DC speed.

Capri86

Getting the popcorn now...

coylemj

I'll see your middle lane hoggers and raise you fog lamps.

gubbie

Thanks guys. Helpful

Mint Sauce

gubbie wrote: »

Thanks guys. Helpful

Well in fairness, it has been dicussed time and time again, as noted in your OP.

Mint Sauce

coylemj wrote: »

I'll see your middle lane hoggers and raise you fog lamps.

Not to mention now, only one working fog lamp due to them being in such constant use.

Big Nasty

irish-stew wrote: »

Well in fairness, it has been dicussed time and time again, as noted in your OP.

Wrong!

This hasn't been done before, ever.

FACT! :P

Bagenal

May I refer you to page 105 of the Rules of the Road book (2007 edition)

gubbie

irish-stew wrote: »

Well in fairness, it has been dicussed time and time again, as noted in your OP.

No, not discussed, just given out about them from what I've seen.

Owenw

The problem is when people sit in the middle or outside lanes when there is no traffic to pass and refuse to move left to allow other drivers to pass legally and safely.

There is no problem staying in the middle lane if you are passing a long stream of slower traffic. In rush hour traffic all available lanes should be used.


In regards to merging, if people accelerated to merge at the same speed as traffic on the main carriageway, and drivers on the mainline anticipated the merging of cars and allowed them space to join smoothly there would be no problems at junctions.

Good awareness, observation, anticipation, defensive driving and making good progress are alien concepts for a lot of drivers and this accounts for pretty much all the problems on our roads.

SV

I remember sticking to the left lane only for driving where it's 3 lanes, I found myself inadvertently being directed off the motorway with no room to merge in to a right hand lane due to traffic. I had to go off, through the roundabouts and merge back on to the motorway again.


Sticking to the left hand lane unless overtaking would work, if some of the roads weren't laid out so badly like this.

Ted_YNWA

I think that there should be a Sticky created for this topic & save this cropping up every 2 days

Mint Sauce

gubbie wrote: »

No, not discussed, just given out about them from what I've seen.

Well a mixture of discussing, and not this again for the first page or two, then given out about.

Pretty much the same way that this is going.

Damien360

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

I think that there should be a Sticky created for this topic & save this cropping up every 2 days

There is a fine thread on Ranting and Raving all about this.

corktina

Damien360 wrote: »

There is a fine thread on Ranting and Raving all about this.

good, they can keep it, we have it twice a week on here and are sick of saying "left hand lane is the driving lane, all others are overtaking lanes"

ironclaw

Anyone else notice people who merge and literally dash for the middle lane? I mean as soon as possible? I have a great video of two cars merging from the Dundrum exit, northbound on the M50. I merge to the centre and the first car cuts in front of me while the car behind him cuts across all two lanes to the rightmost.

Boggles.The.Mind.

But my absolute favourite is this one: http://goo.gl/maps/kYMDh

I've seen people go from extreme left to extreme right, vice-versa and then almost get hit in the centre (Southbound M50) when people in the left realise they are in the lane for Northbound. And then you get the cheeky sod's who shoot up the extreme right to cut in at the last second. Absolute circus.

FYI, street view is out of date. Its left (Northbound), Centre (Southbound) and Right (City)

slimjimmc

SV wrote: »

I remember sticking to the left lane only for driving where it's 3 lanes, I found myself inadvertently being directed off the motorway with no room to merge in to a right hand lane due to traffic. I had to go off, through the roundabouts and merge back on to the motorway again.


Sticking to the left hand lane unless overtaking would work, if some of the roads weren't laid out so badly like this.

What motorway was that?

Voodoomelon

Personally, I think there should be a forth lane on big motorways.
It should be finished with black and yellow hazard-like stripes on the tarmac and is specifically for the likes of the OP, who shouldn't be let near a motorway, leaving the rest of us to get on with using them properly.

Cungi

http://www.howmotorwayswork.co.uk/middle_lane.htm

the culture of deference

Here is a picture of a Motorway in the Netherlands.

Note how familiar it looks to drivers on the M7.

corktina

you jest I guess? it does look like the N (not M)7 I agree but in Holland they are driving correctly with the driving lane nice and full and the overtaking lanes in use to overtake. The guy in what looks like a Tourareg is obvious a Dub Tourist though.

RobertFoster

SV wrote: »

I remember sticking to the left lane only for driving where it's 3 lanes, I found myself inadvertently being directed off the motorway with no room to merge in to a right hand lane due to traffic. I had to go off, through the roundabouts and merge back on to the motorway again.


Sticking to the left hand lane unless overtaking would work, if some of the roads weren't laid out so badly like this.

Are you sure you weren't on a two lane motorway with an auxiliary lane? The lane to the right of the double-wide dashed line is considered the driving/left lane. Only drive in the auxiliary lane if you want to leave at the next exit.

antodeco

Personally, I dont think anybody should use the left lane. Driving down the N7, everyone seems to not use it, and I always get to where I am going much quicker in the left lane as a result :pac:

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Anyone else notice people who merge and literally dash for the middle lane? I mean as soon as possible? I have a great video of two cars merging from the Dundrum exit, northbound on the M50. I merge to the centre and the first car cuts in front of me while the car behind him cuts across all two lanes to the rightmost.

Um.. Unless I'm reading it wrong, did you not then do exactly what you're giving out about?

Personally on the M50 I always stick to the middle lane and move to the outer as needed - especially with all the ducking and diving that goes on between exit 9 (N7 exit - especially when heading northbound as they realise they've left it too late to start moving over after exit 10 - though the poor design doesn't help with these exits practically being on top of each other.. the merging lane for exit 10 doubles as the exit lane for 9!!) and exit 7 (N4 exit) what with people cutting across multiple lanes at the last minute and merging randomly after you pass the exit.

Safest place to be is the outside lane in those cases. I don't particularly care if it bothers these people. I'm not one to dawdle (maybe slightly over depending on conditions) and given the general standard of motorway driving (which ranges from "ok" to WTF?!) I'll move left when *I* feel it's safe to do so without fear of getting my car sideswiped by someone.

omega666

If driving in the left lane
1) You are on guard for merging traffic and having to adjust to allow them in.
2) Moving in and out constantly overtaking slower cars.
3) On occasions the left lane turns into a slip road for a exit.

As opposed to move into the middle lane, sit back and cruise.

When you decide to drive in the middle lane, I must leave the left lane, and cross two lanes just to get passed. That makes no sense.

If everyone used the lanes the way they should, those in the left lane would have space to move to the middle when traffic is merging to the left and move back when it is safe to do so.

Why would we bother spending so much money upgrading our roads to three lanes, just for merging traffic - effectively reducing a lovely road back down to two lanes? If the left lane is only for merging traffic, then what's the point in having a third lane between exits?

Do you sit in the right hand lane on two lane roads for the same reason? I doubt it, so why the difference?

creedp

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Um.. Unless I'm reading it wrong, did you not then do exactly what you're giving out about?

Personally on the M50 I always stick to the middle lane and move to the outer as needed - especially with all the ducking and diving that goes on between exit 9 (N7 exit - especially when heading northbound as they realise they've left it too late to start moving over after exit 10 - though the poor design doesn't help with these exits practically being on top of each other.. the merging lane for exit 10 doubles as the exit lane for 9!!) and exit 7 (N4 exit) what with people cutting across multiple lanes at the last minute and merging randomly after you pass the exit.

Safest place to be is the outside lane in those cases. I don't particularly care if it bothers these people. I'm not one to dawdle (maybe slightly over depending on conditions) and given the general standard of motorway driving (which ranges from "ok" to WTF?!) I'll move left when *I* feel it's safe to do so without fear of getting my car sideswiped by someone.

An e.g. of where sometimes plain auld common sense and an awareness of your surroundings trumps the ROTR!

Babysmurf

gubbie wrote: »

Seriously, what's so wrong with this?

Eeeh.....It's illegal?

The rules of the road say that you must drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking.

When merging traffic comes along you must either allow them space to merge in front of you or pull out into the overtaking lane and overtake them.

'Tis not rocket science!

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

When you decide to drive in the middle lane, I must leave the left lane, and cross two lanes just to get passed. That makes no sense.

Why don't you stay in the left lane and progress as normal. I'll never understand the rigid application of rules as against a more common sense approach which in this case is infinitely safer. Or maybe someone can explain to me why its safer to cross from the left lane to the right lane via the middle lane and back again simply to maintain your own speed on the left lane.

If everyone used the lanes the way they should, those in the left lane would have space to move to the middle when traffic is merging to the left and move back when it is safe to do so.

Only if there is no one overtaking you in the middle lane.

Why would we bother spending so much money upgrading our roads to three lanes, just for merging traffic - effectively reducing a lovely road back down to two lanes? If the left lane is only for merging traffic, then what's the point in having a third lane between exits?

Do you sit in the right hand lane on two lane roads for the same reason? I doubt it, so why the difference?

The reason a 2 lane road is upgraded to a 3 lane road is for volume reasons .. it can simply handle a larger volume of traffic more safely. One of those safety issues is that it is easier to merge onto the road as a significant volume of traffic is occupying the middle and right lane. Don't get me wrong I agree staying left unless overtaking is the default rule but I don't engage in unecessary lane hopping on a 3 lane motorway.

ironclaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Um.. Unless I'm reading it wrong, did you not then do exactly what you're giving out about?

No, I was correctly in the left lane. I merged to centre to allow traffic to merge from the slip road (100% correct) But the merging traffic jumped to the centre lane for no reason other than plain studity and lack of basic driving etiquette.

omega666 wrote: »

1) You are on guard for merging traffic and having to adjust to allow them in.

That's call normal driving.

2) Moving in and out constantly overtaking slower cars.

Again, normal driving procedure.

3) On occasions the left lane turns into a slip road for a exit.

Emm... Read the signs, anticipate change? If you get caught out like this your not paying attention.

As opposed to move into the middle lane, sit back and cruise.

People who sit in the center lane are frankly brain dead. There is no justification for it.

creedp

creedp wrote: »

Why don't you stay in the left lane and progress as normal. .

Because you can't overtake on the left

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

When you decide to drive in the middle lane, I must leave the left lane, and cross two lanes just to get passed. That makes no sense.

You're assuming the car in the middle lane is moving slower than you, or maybe you're just speeding? (shock! horror! :eek: )

However for someone like myself I will do the posted limit whenever it's safe/appropriate to do so (or even slightly over) so your example wouldn't apply.

If you were in lane 1 doing 100 gaining on me in lane 2 because I've been held up by something ahead, then chances are I'll be in lane 3 by the time you get there anyway

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're assuming the car in the middle lane is moving slower than you, or maybe you're just speeding? (shock! horror! :eek: )

However for someone like myself I will do the posted limit whenever it's safe/appropriate to do so (or even slightly over) so your example wouldn't apply.

If you were in lane 1 doing 100 gaining on me in lane 2 because I've been held up by something ahead, then chances are I'll be in lane 3 by the time you get there anyway

Hogging the middle/overtaking lane is as illegal as speeding anyway AFAIK or at least it's in the rotr. You also might be doing slightly less than the limit instead of right on the nose
Regardless, gtfo of the middle lane if you're not overtaking

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Emm... Read the signs, anticipate change? If you get caught out like this your not paying attention.

Not so in fairness to him.

Take the N7-M50 approach. All indications would suggest now that you should be in the middle lane for M50 S, but just as you get to the junction you suddenly have to jerk left or you'll be heading for the city. Best option here is to approach in the left lane and continue straight into that M50 S lane - obviously watching for someone who may have been caught out.

Poor design, poor signage. Not the driver's fault at all.

_Kaiser_

bluewolf wrote: »

Hogging the middle/overtaking lane is as illegal as speeding anyway AFAIK or at least it's in the rotr. You also might be doing slightly less than the limit instead of right on the nose
Regardless, gtfo of the middle lane if you're not overtaking

Wrong.. I know what my speedo reads vs real speed and trust me, I'm not doing under the limit if it's safe to do it. I have no time for dawdling or dawdlers.

As I said above, given the random merging/exiting that goes on on the M50 between junctions 6 and 10, poor driving standards generally and complete lack of encforcement, I will do whatever *I* feel is best to keep myself, my car and others safe - regardless of what some rule book says. If that means I move to lane 3 and cruise past the chaos and move back over afterwards then that's what I'll do.

creedp

bluewolf wrote: »

Because you can't overtake on the left

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

_Kaiser_

creedp wrote: »

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

Exactly.. in MY book it's far more important to read the situation and the conditions for any given stretch of road and adapt your driving accordingly (whether that's speed up, slow down or move over) than taking the "I was only following orders" approach.

Anan1

creedp wrote: »

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

_Kaiser_

Anan1 wrote: »

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

Risk there is they panic when they hear the horn and swerve.. possibly into you or someone else!

Anan1

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Risk there is they panic when they hear the horn and swerve.. possibly into you or someone else!

That's why I said before drawing alongside! But yeah, idiots can be unpredictable.

ironclaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Take the N7-M50 approach. All indications would suggest now that you should be in the middle lane for M50 S, but just as you get to the junction you suddenly have to jerk left or you'll be heading for the city. Best option here is to approach in the left lane and continue straight into that M50 S lane - obviously watching for someone who may have been caught out.

Poor design, poor signage. Not the driver's fault at all.

Nope, clear as day the signage is the centre lane is for M50 South. If your in the left lane your actually more in the wrong as drivers (in the correct lane) have to avoid fools who think they know better and stay in the left lane. Proper driving dictates you follow all the rules and road markings by choosing to ignore them you are adding to the workload of those that do. The road is clearly marked on the road itself about 200m before the junction and again above in the signage.

Irregardless of how badly laid out that junction is, a driver should not have to anticipate (Even though they have to) that a driver will jerk right when they decide (wrongly) to sit in the left lane.

And there's another thing, why do people panic when they are in the wrong lane? Just take the exit and go around. The most it will cost you is probably 10 min (An expense for your own lack of attention / stupidity) Why risk a collision?

IK09

Ye think yer class with yer middle lanes

Irish Steve

Long overdue to introduce something similar to the system used in the States on some of their multi lane roads.

Working on the basis of the M50, which is 4 lane for most of its length, there would be a barrier from about 600 metres before to 600 metres after each intersection between lanes 2 and 3, so 2 lanes past each intersection would be dedicated to through traffic, with duck and dive merchants prevented from ducking and diving by the barrier. Not perfect, but it would solve some of the issues of the late diver that goes from 3 to the exit on top of the junction, and it would help to get the joining traffic up to speed before allowing access to lanes 3 & 4 when joining.

Doesn't solve the problem of the Lane 2 hogs, especially the slow ones that insist on sitting there doing 60 Kph regardless of what's around them.

The Americans seem to have taken the line of least resistance, and allow passing on both sides, which recognises that it happens, rather than the crazy scenario here which is that its illegal, but happens anyway, especially with the lane 1 and 2 scenario on the M50, as nobody seems to know exactly how Lane 1 is supposed to work in the 4 lane sections.

Another useful change for many junctions would be to have the same concept at lights, turn left on red if safe or otherwise restricted could make traffic flow at a number of junctions a lot simpler.

Then again, some traffic planners with some sense would help, there's a very dangerous situation at Ashbourne by Dunnes, where the lanes from Dunnes are marked left or right, but there is a staggered straight across to the left, but if the left filter arrow is on, anyone going staggered across from the left lane, which is the natural lane to do so, is crossing traffic that still has a green light from Slane direction. It's been reported to Gardai, the RSA, the local authority, and councillors, but nothing has been changed. The RSA said "not our area of responsibility". WTF, I thought they were the ROAD SAFETY Authority, so if something is unsafe, how can it be outside of their responsibility.

Perhaps a penalty point for incorrect lane discipline, with CCTV cameras being able to provide proof, and a change to the system to require a driving test for people with 12 points would sort out the way too many people that should never have got driving licences in the first place.

OK, a bit off initial subject, but the basis of the thread seem to be poor driving habits or standards that are not legal, I'm sure we could "discuss" plenty more, like HGV's in Lane 2 of motorways, attitudes to red lights ( I blame the school teachers for much of that, they take "crocodiles" of small children across roads, and tell them to "hurry up" even though the light is now red, and never say "Don't do this when you are on your own, it only applies to school groups that are supervised and must stay together". Children learn very young, and if the wrong behaviour is encouraged by "authority", why do we wonder why that same behaviour continues when they get older and start riding bikes, then move on to driving, "Shore, the red don't apply to me, teacher told me that long time ago"!)

corktina

creedp wrote: »

Why don't you stay in the left lane and progress as normal. I'll never understand the rigid application of rules as against a more common sense approach which in this case is infinitely safer. Or maybe someone can explain to me why its safer to cross from the left lane to the right lane via the middle lane and back again simply to maintain your own speed on the left lane.




Only if there is no one overtaking you in the middle lane.




The reason a 2 lane road is upgraded to a 3 lane road is for volume reasons .. it can simply handle a larger volume of traffic more safely. One of those safety issues is that it is easier to merge onto the road as a significant volume of traffic is occupying the middle and right lane. Don't get me wrong I agree staying left unless overtaking is the default rule but I don't engage in unecessary lane hopping on a 3 lane motorway.

no but the guy coming up behind you has to do double the lane hopping because you are driving incorrectly

Davidth88

I learnt to drive in the UK , and drove there for 20 yrs ( with 20k business miles per year for a lot of that time), so I spent a lot of time on motorways.

My take on it , the primary rule of the road here and in the UK is DRIVE ON THE LEFT .

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .

If the motorway is not that busy , left lane , then as you pass a junction move out to middle lane to allow merging traffic to join with no issue, also you are almost certainly moving faster than the merging traffic ( I normally cruised at 80mph TBH ).

Here with the vast majority of the motorway being nothing more than HQDC the middle lane debate is almost redundant. What I have noticed is that many of the junctions here the merge space is very very short , not allowing you time to get to speed to join the main carrageway , the worst example being N4 to M50 southbound ( http://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.354855,-6.384344&spn=0.021337,0.038581&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.355819,-6.38421&panoid=AUVYvSmvESsXM8-ouhU-zw&cbp=12,189.78,,0,0 )

corktina

Davidth88 wrote: »

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .
QUOTE]

Thats not true, I have driven extensively on Europes busy motorways (M4 and M25 in the vicinity of Heathrow and I have never ever had trouble changing to whichever lane I choose. In the UK if you indicate your intentions to pull out , the guy to your right and behind you almost always makes room for you...not so in Ireland unfortunately.

Davidth88

corktina wrote: »

Davidth88 wrote: »

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .
QUOTE]

Thats not true, I have driven extensively on Europes busy motorways (M4 and M25 in the vicinity of Heathrow and I have never ever had trouble changing to whichever lane I choose. In the UK if you indicate your intentions to pull out , the guy to your right and behind you almost always makes room for you...not so in Ireland unfortunately.

What I am trying to say ( possibly put it wrongly ) , there is literally a constant stream of HGV's in that lane , so you can't pull in at 70/80mph because that lane is moving at 56mph ( in theory ) , often slower uphills ( but quicker downhills ).

M25 is a special case TBH ,

a) its 4 lanes in many places
b) the variable speed limit is often set at 50mph around LHR .

mitosis

Yep. If they're moronic enough to think it's OK to occupy the centre lane when the left is vacant, you can't know what they might do if they hear a horn.

djimi

Anan1 wrote: »

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

I dont think it makes any odds which side you pass them on tbh. If someone is stupid enough to change lanes without looking then they are as much of a danger to someone who is overtaking on the right as they are to someone who is undertaking on the left.

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Nope, clear as day the signage is the centre lane is for M50 South. If your in the left lane your actually more in the wrong as drivers (in the correct lane) have to avoid fools who think they know better and stay in the left lane. Proper driving dictates you follow all the rules and road markings by choosing to ignore them you are adding to the workload of those that do. The road is clearly marked on the road itself about 200m before the junction and again above in the signage

OK, it's poor attempt at MS Paint time

See attached image. Now according to the overheads, you should stay in the centre lane (yellow in the pic) all the way in to get onto the M50 South.

However just as you get to the M50 junction itself, you have to move left out of nowhere to get to this lane, or you'll be going on the flyover heading for the city (blue)

What I'm suggesting is by staying in the leftmost M50 North lane (green), you can continue on as long as you're watching for others that may get caught out. Better that than cutting across someone who hasn't yet moved left for the M50 North ramp.

It's an imperfect solution to a poor design, but that's what it is. Have a read on the roads forum. Big thread there about it.