DSP passes based on 1973 passenger estimates.

bmaxi

foggy_lad wrote: »

Many prisoners did not set out to do any harm to anyone or any material property but through unfortunate events find themselves on the wrong side of the prison walls. Those imprisoned for offences like dangerous driving causing death etc do not set out to do harm so why should they be further punished?

The family of those whose life he took will be punished for evermore, not just for the few years the perpetrator spends in prison.What harm did they, or the victim, set out to do?

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

Getting off-topic, but prisoners are allowed day-release to enable them to allow themselves re-adjust to the outside world and maintain relationships, especially with their children.

This is as more for the benefit of the general public and the children, as dysfunctional former prisoners are more likely to re-offend than rehabilitated ones.

All highly laudable Social goals Victor,however I would equally suggest that paying one's fare on Public Transport is as much (or should be) an integral part of normal "outside world" behaviour as anything else.

It would appear from some responses here,that Public Transport should be the responsibility of the Dept or Health,such is the level of importance it has for almost every classification except the able-bodied individual in employment and paying full Social Charges.

It is beyond arguement that Ireland has a significant problem with the prevelance of sickness and disability within it's working-age population.

The DSP's own statistics for 2011 underline the trend somewhat starkly.

Number of Recipients of Household Benefits (Free Travel) by Type of Payment Received 2011.

Invalidity Pension- 48,543

Carers Allowance- 49,905

Disability Allowance-99,506

"Others"- 99,702

Total- 297,656.

Note that these 2011 figures refer to individuals in respect of whom a Free Travel Document has been issued,it does not include spouses/companions,if applicable.

Given the almost total lack of oversight of the Free Travel Scheme over several decades now,it is now falling to the Inter Departmental Review Group to unwravel the tangled unsustainable mess which the scheme has descended into.

The Review Group has been asked to expedite an interim report,a request which will have recieved added impetus following last weeks Dáil Committee hearings.

The choices remain stark-either increase the overall budget to fully fund the 740,000 recipients or significantly reduce the level of benefit/number of claimants to match the currently available funding (Itself capped at 2010 Levels)

Right now,it's in Paddy Power country as to whats going to happen.....:(

Gatling

What's the "other" 99,000.

I'm in receipt of DA with 3 on going medical conditions all degenerative in nature ,I'm well aware of the of how bad the travel pass situation ,I'm my area its pretty bad people get on to my bus route in work uniforms all with passes and not a word said ,I produce my pass with the proper photo id and I'm question by drivers ,how does that work ,ask any gp around the country and ask has there been an increase in people ,mainly 18/20 year olds seeking to be signed off on DA for the higher pay and travel pass ,my own gp has stopped signing welfare forms for all new customers/patients due to it ,
The fact its too easy to claim disability isn't helping either

Cuddlesworth

Gatling wrote: »

Fuuny people moaning about a travel pass ,when non nationals can go to social welfare on a very regular basis and get cars and car insurance and road tax paid for by saying they feel threaten or were racially abused on public transport, no garda complaint's no proof of anything untoward,

Its been a while since I heard crap like that.

monument

Gatling wrote: »

Fuuny people moaning about a travel pass ,when non nationals can go to social welfare on a very regular basis and get cars and car insurance and road tax paid for by saying they feel threaten or were racially abused on public transport, no garda complaint's no proof of anything untoward,

Can you prove that -- with a link to a reputable source -- or is it something you read on a random page on the internet or heard down in the pub?

Moderator.

AlekSmart

Gatling wrote: »

What's the "other" 99,000.

I'm in receipt of DA with 3 on going medical conditions all degenerative in nature ,I'm well aware of the of how bad the travel pass situation ,I'm my area its pretty bad people get on to my bus route in work uniforms all with passes and not a word said ,I produce my pass with the proper photo id and I'm question by drivers ,how does that work ,ask any gp around the country and ask has there been an increase in people ,mainly 18/20 year olds seeking to be signed off on DA for the higher pay and travel pass ,my own gp has stopped signing welfare forms for all new customers/patients due to it ,
The fact its too easy to claim disability isn't helping either

Interesting post Gatling.

My personal opinion is that there is some considerable level of in-fighting going on within sections of the DSP.

I too am aware of a shift in emphasis over the past 12 months,with quite a few people being transferred from one form of claim to another.

I am aware of persons who were surprised to find themselves now on Disability Allowance at the same financial rate,but with the additional benefit of a Free Travel Pass and a Household Benefit package WITHOUT THEM HAVING ACTUALLY SOUGHT IT.

I could be wrong,but it's almost as if some DSP sections needed to secure an extra workload to maintain their integrity and one method of securing this was inter-classification transfer ?

The lack of transparancy surrounding the entire Free Travel Scheme,as shown by the 97,000 "Others" qualifying for the benefit only serves to underline how precarious the entire scheme now is.

Victor

Gatling wrote: »

Fuuny people moaning about a travel pass ,when non nationals can go to social welfare on a very regular basis and get cars and car insurance and road tax paid for by saying they feel threaten or were racially abused on public transport, no garda complaint's no proof of anything untoward,

Trolling not welcome. You do realise that immigrants, including asylum seekers have their own money?

murphaph wrote: »

criminal family member.

Thats a bit of a loaded statement isn't it?

Let's move the discussion back to the DSP Free Travel Pass.

Moderator

AlekSmart

mydiscworld wrote: »

DSP will be issuing a public service card with photo id, etc at SAFE2 level, to all free pass holders in the coming year. That should help.

Assume DSP will now recalculate the amount they owe CIE annually based on current passenger numbers. Likely to mean increasing the annual payment, though it is capped by the Gov at present.

A handy, backdoor way, if they remove the cap, for the Gov to bailout CIE without an official bailout.

There are some interesting specifics on the new DSP Services Card here....

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fper.gov.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F18_Jan_-_The_Public_Services_Card_Mr_Richard_Shine_Department_of_Social_Protection_.ppt&ei=7xZPUa2jIIqQ7AabxoDwDg&usg=AFQjCNGHqgjS5bEgppeKkPstPrFoT4823g&bvm=bv.44158598,d.ZGU

What is interesting,given the fragile nature of the current DSP Free Travel Scheme is that this process dates back to 2005 :eek:

What is interesting to me,as a Busdriver,is the incredible news that the Hi-Tech Chipped Card may still be used as a Flash-Card in the manner of the current Corn-Flakes Box !!

· Authentication by observation: The PSC shall have physical
characteristics that give a trained inspector a level of assurance that they
are looking at a genuine card.

· Cardholder photo on card face: The PSC shall have a cardholder photo on the front of the card

· Expiry date: The PSC chip shall hold an expiry date, configurable by the card issuer to a value appropriate to card usage

· Free travel: The PSC shall be usable for gaining access to legitimate free travel. This might simply mean using the card as a flash pass or might be electronic authentication

Whilst I welcome the arrival,at last,of a renewability date,I remain less than impressed with the news that any "Flash-Pass" usage is being considered.

Even worse,the Free Travel Identifier appears to be a tiny Free Travel Logo and wording in the top left corner. (page 25)

I don't know how much the budget for the Public Services Card actually is,but with €40 million having gone into Leapcard I am concerned that we may be looking at a similar amount here to broadly replicate it's functions.

Interestingly I note the only mention of Public Transport application is on Page 18,with specific mention of the RPA's ITS System,leading me to suspect that yet again we are failing to appreciate the capabilities of electronic card technology.

So now,8 years into the PSC project,we as yet have no functionality on Public Transport,and no firm date for its introduction...little wonder I suppose when the DSP itself is still in 1973....:rolleyes:

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interestingly I note the only mention of Public Transport application is on Page 18,with specific mention of the RPA's ITS System,leading me to suspect that yet again we are failing to appreciate the capabilities of electronic card technology.

Leap Card is the public manifestation of ITS.

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

Leap Card is the public manifestation of ITS.

Yep Victor,and thats what caught my beady eye,particularly as Leapcard is already up and running (after a fashion).

If the DSP had not prevaricated and agonized over preserving their own hold on things,we could have,right now,a functioning New DSP enabled,Photh ID'd Leapcard in the hands of every entitled DSP customer.

What we got,and it is still ongoing,is the need for a particular Dept to retain ALL of it's various bits n Bobs rather than allow elements to be redistributed in the interests of accountability and efficiency.

It is,in a way,a re-run of the Leapcard gestation all over again,when instead of the relevant empowered agency simply enforcing it's will,a fluffy kinda-sorta process was proceeded with which has Leap and the ITS process itself,effectively stalled on the hard-shoulder...sigh :rolleyes:

Hungerford

So more stats from the DSP, regarding free travel recipients in 2011. I have combined some of the smaller figures into larger groups i.e. there are three official classes of state pensioner which I have added together.

Reason Total
State pension 346,769
Other 99,702
Disability Allowance 99,506
Widows etc. pension 78,299
Carers Allowance 49,905
Invalidity pension 48,543
Deserted wives 1,935
Blind pension 1,397
Occupational injury benefit 356

dowlingm

The one thing about those who say "would withdrawing FTP mean people being stuck at home" - of course this is dependent on location. A Dublin person, to a certain extent people in other places with a city-type bus network, is doing pretty well with a pass which to an ordinary Joe works out to a value of over 5000 Euros. A person outside said places is dependent on BE Regional services which are (1) infrequent and (2) not necessarily going where you need them to go. Making FTP means-tested or whatever doesn't matter - if you cannot get somewhere because you are financially or medically precluded from driving, cycling or walking you are screwed in the vast majority of the State.

If people with disabilities outside of Dublin got a travel benefit (allowance is a bit too parental for my taste) rather than a pass they would have the choice to go with non-CIE forms of transport whether that be taxis or non-DSP public transport - perhaps you might see companies like Aircoach tiptoe back into regional towns they left because a big chunk of their market wouldn't use them when they could travel free with CIE.

The problem for CIE is that while DSP probably doesn't cover costs the way they would like, they would have to institute substantial network cutbacks if the DSP was completely withdrawn. The best outcome of those likely to see the light of day is probably at least partial reversal of Seamus Brennan's extension of the pass to peak services, which would allow CIE to squeeze more paying punters on at peak and fill empty seats off peak. But CIE's problems are by no means confined to DSP-related capacity issues and we shouldn't forget it.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

If people with disabilities outside of Dublin got a travel benefit (allowance is a bit too parental for my taste) rather than a pass they would have the choice to go with non-CIE forms of transport whether that be taxis or non-DSP public transport - perhaps you might see companies like Aircoach tiptoe back into regional towns they left because a big chunk of their market wouldn't use them when they could travel free with CIE.

The problem for CIE is that while DSP probably doesn't cover costs the way they would like, they would have to institute substantial network cutbacks if the DSP was completely withdrawn.The best outcome of those likely to see the light of day is probably at least partial reversal of Seamus Brennan's extension of the pass to peak services, which would allow CIE to squeeze more paying punters on at peak and fill empty seats off peak. But CIE's problems are by no means confined to DSP-related capacity issues and we shouldn't forget it.

These are excellent and clearly made points.

The replacement of the Free Travel Pass by a cash-benefit would also remove what a significant number of DSP customers feel to be a certain "stigma" attaching to displaying it.

I well remember my late fathers aversion to displaying his Free Pass,as he was "well able to pay my own Busfare",and quite a few people still cling to a certain dignity surrounding their ability to support themselves.

The Cash Payment would give such people the ability to purchase whichever Public Transport ticketing method best suited them,or to use the money for other purposes should they live in a non-Public Transport servrd area.

I would equally suggest that much of the "revisionary" focus involved in Dublin Bus's Network Direct programme was prompted by the DSP Free Travel Scheme's funding problems.

It is,IMO,no coincidence that the removal of 200 vehicles and attendant Staff,plus the substantial contraction of it's service network was introduced ahead of the DSP's imposition of a cap on the Free Travel Scheme Budget in 2010.

This was a well managed process which allowed the DSP particularly,to avoid tabloid accusations of inflicting pain and suffering on the Poor Oul Pensioners again.

What Network Direct did achieve was the ability to continue to offer full availability to DSP customers on BAC services,simply because it had cut it's costs drastically to essentially match the DSP's new capped figure.

Similar reductions in Bus Eireann services over a slightly longer timeframe has allowed it to continue with the illusion that the DSP scheme is just fine and Jim Dandy...but it's not.

It has thus fallen to the Private Sector to reduce or abolish access to Free Travel as,for example Aircoach on it's Cork Express service.

One can also note the recent lack of any great enthusiastic comments from Politicians on the,formerly very well covered,topic of Privatization.

The Peak vs Off-Peak issue is no longer quite as clearcut as it once was.

The nature of this depression has effectively removed the most productive and regular users of our services,those employed in the Building and associated support services.

This can be seen in the nature of our Peak-Time journeys which,on some routes now amount to perhaps a single morning and evening trip being actually Full.

It's my belief that the DSP will eventually have to recognize reality by a substantial reduction in Free Travel and it's replacement with Concessionary Rate Travel similar to Northern Ireland's system.

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

The replacement of the Free Travel Pass by a cash-benefit would also remove what a significant number of DSP customers feel to be a certain "stigma" attaching to displaying it.

Any cash benefit would be less valuable than the free travel pass, although there is the point where people have no direct access to public transport from home - but that is what the Rural Transport Programme is for. https://www.pobal.ie/FundingProgrammes/RuralTransportProgramme/Pages/Rural%20Transport%20Programme.aspx

a significant number of DSP customers feel to be a certain "stigma" attaching to displaying it.

I well remember my late fathers aversion to displaying his Free Pass,as he was "well able to pay my own Busfare",and quite a few people still cling to a certain dignity surrounding their ability to support themselves.

On locacl services, making the DSP FTP Leap-enabled would mean they would only ever have to show it to the machine.