DSP passes based on 1973 passenger estimates.

Losty Dublin

Some food for thought in relation to DSP passes from a Dail Committee yesterday. But seriously, 1973 figures used by the DSP? :eek: The relevant material from the report is pasted below along with the linked site

Annual payments of some € 61m to CIÉ for the State’s free travel scheme is based on a passenger estimate from 1973, the secretary general of the Department of Social Protection said today. Niamh O’Donoghue was speaking at the examination of her department’s accounts by the Public Accounts Committee. Committee chairman John McGuinness expressed shock at learning of the 30 year lag in data during the meeting.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052[/QUOTE]

foggy_lad

“I am shocked you continue pay the company money and do not know the numbers” that use it, Mr McGuinness said. The public services card being introduced by the Department would allow usage to be monitored, she said.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052

Maybe this will force the issuing of proper travel passes? Although they know the number of eligible persons they dont know how many actual bits of paper are in use or how many are used by relatives long after the original recipient has died.

mydiscworld

DSP will be issuing a public service card with photo id, etc at SAFE2 level, to all free pass holders in the coming year. That should help.

Assume DSP will now recalculate the amount they owe CIE annually based on current passenger numbers. Likely to mean increasing the annual payment, though it is capped by the Gov at present.

A handy, backdoor way, if they remove the cap, for the Gov to bailout CIE without an official bailout.

LXFlyer

It's hardly "bailing them out" - rather paying them what is actually owed.

bk

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

All carers have full eligibility although this could be restricted to when they are accompanying the person they are carer for.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/How-do-I-qualify-for-free-travel.aspx

If you are under age 66 and permanently living in the State, you will qualify for a Free Travel Pass if one of the statements below applies to you:

You are getting one of the following payments:
Invalidity Pension,
Blind Pension,
Disability Allowance,
Incapacity Supplement or Workmen's Compensation with Disablement Pension, for at least 12 months,
Carer's Allowance, (you may get a single status pass only, if you are under age 66),
social security invalidity payment, or a similar payment, for at least 12 months, from a country covered by EC Regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement. See below for details.
or
You are a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from this Department (you may get a single status pass only, if you are under age 66),
or
You are blind or severely visually impaired and you satisfy the medical conditions for the Blind Pension,
or
You are a widow, widower or surviving civil partner aged 60 to 65 inclusive and your late spouse or civil partner held a Free Travel Pass and at the time of their death, you were permanently living together. In this case, you must be getting one of the following payments:
State Pension (Transition) (from age 65),
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Contributory Pension,
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Non-Contributory Pension,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefits Scheme,
a similar social security payment from a country covered by EC Regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement. (See below for details),
an ordinary Garda Widow's Pension from the Department of Justice and Law Reform.

eejoynt

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

maybe people who use a free travel pass to deliver for a business?:D

foggy_lad

eejoynt wrote: »

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

maybe people who use a free travel pass to deliver for a business?:D

Surely those running a business would want much more reliable delivery options than bus or train and with the low cost of couriers it would be cheaper to use them than try to deliver goods by bus or train?

Have you seen many business people delivering goods by bus or train? are businesses going to recruit an army of pass holders to deliver goods to shops around the country? surely those persons would then be employed and no longer eligible.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

I guess you neglected to see the reference to DSP estimations based on 1973 levels.

loyatemu

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Annual payments of some € 61m to CIÉ for the State’s free travel scheme is based on a passenger estimate from 1973...Committee chairman John McGuinness expressed shock at learning of the 30 year lag in data during the meeting....

was this meeting held 10 years ago?

Losty Dublin

loyatemu wrote: »

was this meeting held 10 years ago?

That's what the Times reported from the Dail Committee. It may be based on the fact that the PSO has been reduced 4 times from it's 2008 level so it may be at or about it's 2003 level. When the committee record is posted online then it may give a more accurate breakdown.

bk

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

They could do a lot of things but they are less likely to do anything that affects the disabled/elderly imo.

Off peak travel creates an issue with the great difference in urban and rural transport and capping intercity tickets will also create issues with the urban rural divide. many in rural areas rely solely on intercity journeys. Excluding the disabled is an option but they would have to exclude the blind, deaf, amputees, physically and mentally handicapped etc.

Those on medication and those who buy and sell their medication on Abbey street at the luas stop could be excluded but it would be hard to do as they would each have to be brought to court and barred from public transport and they would be entitled to free legal aid and most likely would have to be brought around by taxis after that at the taxpayers expense.

the carers were added to the list in the boom years and really should only be allowed travel when accompanying the person they care for. after this the pass should only be available to Irish citizens and only those born in Ireland and it should be means tested!

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

I'd agree with limiting the scope of who is entitled to travel under the scheme drastically; OAP's and those who genuinely cannot drive through genuine impairment should be the extent of who gets access to the scheme and not via advocation of a quack claiming back pain or a social workers letter .

Some sort of a fare for long haul bus/rail travel would be a good move as it will help transport providers to get some cashflow plus it places a value to the consumer of what they get; a middle ground if you will.

However, it gets away from the fact that the DSP grossly underfunds the scheme for what it gets in 2013 and making good this shortfall has to be addressed by Messer O'Donohue and Burton.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd agree with limiting the scope of who is entitled to travel under the scheme drastically; OAP's and those who genuinely cannot drive through genuine impairment should be the extent of who gets access to the scheme and not via advocation of a quack claiming back pain or a social workers letter .

So you think the DSP panel of doctors as well as all the GPs in the country are nothing but Quacks?

You would also want prisoners and their wives and children to be denied free travel for day release and visits?

Some sort of a fare for long haul bus/rail travel would be a good move as it will help transport providers to get some cashflow plus it places a value to the consumer of what they get; a middle ground if you will.

However, it gets away from the fact that the DSP grossly underfunds the scheme for what it gets in 2013 and making good this shortfall has to be addressed by Messer O'Donohue and Burton.

It is not the job of the free travel scheme to keep failing companies afloat. and you know very little about most of those availing of the free travel scheme if you believe they don't value it and see it as having no value! I know several older people who use their free travel to visit family members miles away to get their dinner and also to visit their local pub where they might socialise once a week, for some this is the only time they see other people in their area.

I also know of people who have been diagnosed by several of your "Quacks" and they have free travel but they also have to pay for taxis to/from their local railway station or bus stop because their quack claims they have back pain. These people must be plain stupid to pay for taxis they don't need, according to you!

Richard Logue

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

LXFlyer

I think that there would have to be a split between Intercity/rural trips and city services for such restrictions to work.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

Most are classed as disabled due to being under the care of the mental health services, for many their drug addictions are as a result of their serious mental health issues. Most have been failed by successive governments who have not catered to their mental health needs.

Going Forward

Was there anything to stop BE and others manipulating incorrect passenger usage data to boost travel numbers and claim repayment from the DSP?

For example Mrs. X travelled just a couple of times on her FTP, but unbeknown to her, she could be claimed for on every single journey, as there were no adequate checks as far as can be seen.

It looks like the DSP was subsidising BE, How else does BE operate a 53 seater to the back of beyond with 10 pensioners on it and no one paying for the privelidge?? !!!!:):)

Going Forward

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

FTP conditions should be confined/imposed county-wise, if you want to go from one end of the country and back to pass the time, FTP holders should be charged at half rate.

I would bet that most holders would not complain, although not sure how much that measure alone would save.

ezra_pound

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

That's pretty shameful leaving out disabled people!

Going Forward

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most are classed as disabled due to being under the care of the mental health services, for many their drug addictions are as a result of their serious mental health issues. Most have been failed by successive governments who have not catered to their mental health needs.

They also add a bit of colour and character to the services with their customary bonhomie.

ezra_pound

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

That's a pretty anti-disabled attitude you have there. Why should wealthy pensioners get free travel over a poor disabled person attending a day center/ work. The disabled need to be incentivised to engage in work and society.

hfallada

I cant understand why all OAPs get free travel while in most countries they pay full fare or get half fares. Obviously free travel won whatever Government was in power in the 1970s a few more votes. But is unnecessary in 2013 when most OAPs have a car. They should contribute something to CIE when travelling on it. Considering that the Irish population is ageing is not going to be stable forever so it might as well be done soon.

In Germany and France students get half price travel not like the ****ty 25% off travel which is ridiculous considering a working person who gets a tax saver ticket gets a ticket which is cheaper than a student. I know some people believe students shouldnt get a reduced rate but most students dont have jobs in college and pay €18.20 for 5 days travel compared to someone working and can claim some of the expense back is a bit unreasonable.

Victor

There is a limited pot of money available. In allocating it, people in the most need should be prioritised. Nobody should have it sweet, and nobody should be screwed over.

Possible options would be:
* Convert some of the PSO subsidy into payment for the FTP.
* Curtail FTP travel to local services, within a county or group of counties (e.g. someone in County Cork could only use services in County Cork, someone in Meath could only use services in Meath, Dublin and Louth), or to the nearest city (people living in Kerry could travel for free as far as Limerick or Cork. Cue Kilkenny no longer being a city ),
* Have users pay a contribution to the fare, especially on long distance services.
* Set three rates - adult, 16-26 and concessionary (children, pensioners, people with disabilities), whereby people would pay 100%, 75% and 50% of the nominal fare, with no cap and no discounts on discounts. 16-26 and concessionary available only via specified ID.
* As peak time transport is the most expensive transport to provide and the one most in demand, shift the balance of restrictions, e.g. no free travel or no concessionary travel at those times.
* Curtail the number of companion passes to those who actually need a companion to travel.
* Apply a means test.

Victor

It seems that each Social Welfare Local Office (not branch office) is expected to sign 200 people up to the new Public Services Card (PSC) each week. There appears to be 50 such offices, although distribution is somewhat uneven - 5 in each of Kerry and Mayo, but only 4 in Cork - despite 3 times the population and twice the land area.

That is about 509,600 maximum that can be processed each year, with a population of a bit more than 4,500,000 it will take more than 10 years to record everyone, when you account for the more than 500,000 people that will be born or immigrate in that time.

AlekSmart

mydiscworld wrote: »

DSP will be issuing a public service card with photo id, etc at SAFE2 level, to all free pass holders in the coming year. That should help.

Assume DSP will now recalculate the amount they owe CIE annually based on current passenger numbers. Likely to mean increasing the annual payment, though it is capped by the Gov at present.

A handy, backdoor way, if they remove the cap, for the Gov to bailout CIE without an official bailout.

It should be noted that the DSP is only to begin the issue of the PS Card in 2013.

By the Departments own admission,this is an involved and lengthy process which is likely to take up to 5 years to complete.

The problem is that the Department continues to insist upon the Old "Cornflakes Box" document remaining valid during the transition process.

It also has to be noted that the DSP prevaricated until the last possible moment before deciding not to utilize Leapcard as it's Free Travel enabling document.

This was but one reason for the extended gestation period of Leapcard and for its even more extended lead-in period.

The latest revelations from the Dáil Committee shows that the DSP has not addressed the significant issue of Fraudlent Usage in any meaningful way.

It would be interesting to have a question asked as to what number of Free Travel Documents are on record as being returned following the death of a pass-holder or a pass-holder otherwise losing entitlement.

The issue also posthumously confirms the former CIE Chairman Micheal Mc Donnell's assertion concerning the shortfall in funding the CIE group companies participation in the Free Travel Scheme.

What the committee failed to tease out in its questioning of Ms O Donoghue was any indication as whether the DSP can continue to issue new Free Travel Documents at the current rate,particularly to those other than OAP's.

Last year alone,some 26,000 new Free Travel Passes were issued to bring the total number of passes to c.743,000.

It would appear that Ms O Donoghue has,at best, a somewhat simplistic understanding of how schems such as this are funded...

Department secretary general Niamh O'Donoghue said she did not know why a survey of users had not been carried out since 1973. But she also said the department was probably making a saving as free travel numbers had most probably increased since then

.

So,we are now asked to accept a totally outlandish statement at face value,simply because it comes from a Senior Civil Servant ?

As this issue rumbles on,it is going to develop,and possibly along avenues which some will not like.

There are two ways to address the current Funding emergency.

One is to immediately suspend the entire Free Travel Scheme and introduce an interim Concessionary Fare (€1 City Bus Fare. €2 Dart/Urban/Express Bus.€5 Train ) on production of the current valid Pass.

All Free Travel entitlement to be on a Passholder Only basis with no automatic spousal/partner entitlement.

The second method,and most likely the one being adopted,entails the "surveying" of current usage patterns and the eventual replacement of the cardboard pass with a chipped smartcard.

This method has the political advantage of not being confrontational and of also perhaps extending over the lifetime of a couple of different administrations,thereby limiting Political fallout.

The Free Travel Scheme has been mismanaged and rendered unworkable by the lack of acumen displayed by successive Social Welfare departments and their Ministers.

To admit to a 40 year data vacuum,of itself is high-profile resignation material,but to attempt to insist that the present arrangements can continue is beyond nonsensical.

To suggest that Ireland can support a Public Transport System which has over a third of the countrys adult population travelling at no cost is unsustainable,it simply cannot be budgeted for in any shape or form,but I reckon we'll see an attempt anyway !!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is a great pity that you view it as such Fred Swanson.

The reality however,is that the DSP itself has fostered a situation whereby the term "Disabled" has become unrecognisable in any meaningful way.

We have now arrived at a situation whereby there are very real concerns that those who are genuinely disabled may well see their Free Travel entitlement reduced/abolished as the funding has evaporated.

For my own part,my vitriol is directed at a Senior Civil Servant who quite blatently admits that her Department operated such an impostant Social Protection system on 40 year old statistical information,whilst insisting that expanding the scheme whilst freezing its funding is somehow or other sustainable ....?

I would suggest that the Secretary General in question should recieve a little more vitriol just to ensure she stays awake !

AlekSmart

Going Forward wrote: »

Was there anything to stop BE and others manipulating incorrect passenger usage data to boost travel numbers and claim repayment from the DSP?

For example Mrs. X travelled just a couple of times on her FTP, but unbeknown to her, she could be claimed for on every single journey, as there were no adequate checks as far as can be seen.

It looks like the DSP was subsidising BE, How else does BE operate a 53 seater to the back of beyond with 10 pensioners on it and no one paying for the privelidge?? !!!!:):)

Actually Going Forward,this is now the nub of the issue.

The DSP Free Travel scheme ostensibly operated on a negotiated annualized Lump-Sum basis,with the Department of Social Protection allocating a set amount based upon usage patterns and data available to it.

The perception was that this process was automatically updated annually to take account of changing demographics and travel patterns.

However we now know,since the Dail Committee testimony,that the DSP has not updated this statistical data since 1973.

The only element which changed was the Departments overall Free Travel scheme allocation.

Once allocated,it was then disbursed along the exact same lines every year for 40 years .......:mad:

The issue of the 53 seater with the 10 passengers is not necessarily the same,as it may well come under the Public Service Obligation requirement,of which the DSP Free Travel Scheme,is only one element of many which may be taken into account.

lucernarian

Richard Logue wrote: »

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.

Hmmm, why should pensioners be eligible for free travel passes yet the blind and those with mobility impairments be excluded? I don't know why a pensioner has more right to free travel than someone in a wheelchair for example... Especially as not every elderly person has mobility problems, and may even be able to afford to drive their own car around (I know that's a small minority but still).

Owryan

Gonna post my own opinion here, currently on DA and have a FTP for myself only. Do I need it ? No, as I can drive and have my car. Do I use it ? Yes, once a week.

It should most definatley be both means tested and issued according to an individuals circumstances.

Also, imo it should only offer subsidised travel with caps for different journeys/modes of transport.

The scheme is most certainly being abused, I know of one person who was recently caught travelling on their deceased mothers (dead 3 years) pass.

foggy_lad

Owryan wrote: »

Gonna post my own opinion here, currently on DA and have a FTP for myself only. Do I need it ? No, as I can drive and have my car. Do I use it ? Yes, once a week.

It should most definatley be both means tested and issued according to an individuals circumstances.

Also, imo it should only offer subsidised travel with caps for different journeys/modes of transport.

The scheme is most certainly being abused, I know of one person who was recently caught travelling on their deceased mothers (dead 3 years) pass.

Caps would be the way to go except for the great urban/rural divide and the risk of those in greater need of transport in rural areas having ro pay more than their urban counterparts who would generally not have as far to travel.

Means testing is essential for this and also the houshold benefits for the elderly and disabled.

bigbarginhunter

Richard Logue wrote: »

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.


Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.

So what Richard Logue is saying is that disabled people should only go out when they have a medical/hospital appointment, a lot of that have disabilities cannot get around without there Carer. It's a very ignorant comment towards people that have disabilities.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

They could do a lot of things but they are less likely to do anything that affects the disabled/elderly imo.

They already have, they have already reduced the fuel and phone allowances.

While I agree that they are unlikely to hit the pension, I do think they will go after all other areas and the Free Travel Scheme is the next likely target.

I think the best way to approach it is to do away with free travel and make it concessionary. Even just 25% of the normal fair, I think that would be a good thing as it would help people to appreciate it's value more and only take journeys that they really need.

Do this in conjunction with making it a leap card, linked to a deaths database, would go a long way to reducing fraudulent usage.

As for me saying it shouldn't be for disabled persons. Sorry I don't really mean that, of course people who are truly disabled should get free/concessionary travel.

I suppose my problem is that the word "disabled" has become seriously tarnished by the "oh my back hurts", drug taking, scumbags who I see wielding disability passes every day. It really makes my blood boil.

And that is the danger. The scheme has gotten so out of control, that the original point of the scheme has gotten lost, to such an extent where the only solution maybe to stop it completely, thus hitting the most vulnerable people because the government couldn't run a scheme that was being highly abused.

murphaph

bk wrote: »

As for me saying it shouldn't be for disabled persons. Sorry I don't really mean that, of course people who are truly disabled should get free/concessionary travel.

I suppose my problem is that the word "disabled" has become seriously tarnished by the "oh my back hurts", drug taking, scumbags who I see wielding disability passes every day. It really makes my blood boil.

Disabled people should be top priority for a pass. OAPs should get a concession like they do here in Berlin (note not nationwide, discounts are for local area ticketing only. A Berliner can't get a concession for Munich public transport as he doesn't live there).

Disabled ids here have a % disability on them. You need to be at least 50% disabled to get free transport. An example of a 50% disability would be the loss of a hand.

Germany doesn't consider elderly people with back pain to be disabled as older people suffer generally from a deterioration in their health like this. You have to be at a significant disadvantage to your average peer group for more than 6months to be considered.

The main thing here is that the decision is made by an independent doctor, not your own gp.

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

Disabled people should be top priority for a pass. OAPs should get a concession like they do here in Berlin (note not nationwide, discounts are for local area ticketing only. A Berliner can't get a concession for Munich public transport as he doesn't live there).

Disabled ids here have a % disability on them. You need to be at least 50% disabled to get free transport. An example of a 50% disability would be the loss of a hand.

Germany doesn't consider elderly people with back pain to be disabled as older people suffer generally from a deterioration in their health like this. You have to be at a significant disadvantage to your average peer group for more than 6months to be considered.

The main thing here is that the decision is made by an independent doctor, not your own gp.

Decisions about disability are made here by a social welfare doctor from a panel of gps and they give their opinion and the final decision is made by a non medical civil servant. Also it can take several years on certs before you would even be considered for disability or invalidity pension which gets you free travel and the household benefits package.

Richard Logue

bigbarginhunter wrote: »

Richard Logue wrote: »

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.


Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.

So what Richard Logue is saying is that disabled people should only go out when they have a medical/hospital appointment, a lot of that have disabilities cannot get around without there Carer. It's a very ignorant comment towards people that have disabilities.

What's ignorant about expressing my opinion? You're entitled to disagree with me but keep the insults to yourself.

What particular entitlement should disabled people have to free travel? If a disabled person can get to work I would encourage that by all means but I don't for one minute think a blind person for instance or someone on crutches should be able to travel for free.

If we were being completely fair we really ought to scrap the scheme as it stands and only offer passes to "deserving cases" subject to a means test. Anyone using the free pass to conduct business should have their pass confiscated on the spot and pay a penalty fare.

monument

bigbarginhunter wrote: »

It's a very ignorant comment towards people that have disabilities.

Moderator:

Please avoid calling people's views ignorant. It's inflammatory and won't help you get your point across.

bigbarginhunter

My apologies

Victor

Richard Logue wrote: »

I don't for one minute think a blind person for instance or someone on crutches should be able to travel for free.

But it may be impossible for such people to walk, cycle or drive. Should they be left at home instead?

bigbarginhunter

Everyone is entitled to there opinion.

I do agree the system is abused, but there are genuine people that use the travel pass that don't abuse it.

My son also gets a transportation grant in the form of a taxi to bring him to and from school, the reason he gets this is there is no school in our area that can provide for his needs. People with disabilities don't have the same choices as an able bodied person and do need an extra bit of help in life.

murphaph

bigbarginhunter wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to there opinion.

I do agree the system is abused, but there are genuine people that use the travel pass that don't abuse it.

My son also gets a transportation grant in the form of a taxi to bring him to and from school, the reason he gets this is there is no school in our area that can provide for his needs. People with disabilities don't have the same choices as an able bodied person and do need an extra bit of help in life.

I agree. Genuinely disabled people deserve extra help from the rest of us through the state.

lucernarian

bigbarginhunter wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to there opinion.

Unless of course, an opinion is expressed to others or put into effect that discriminates members of society as per the Equality Act 1998.

I think I should also mention that discrimination against those who are disabled is an offence in the above act. But that's beside the point I guess

I can't see how the law as it stands could allow for selective treatment of various disabilities involving mobility impairment. It would need to be radically changed to allow for detailed criteria in issuing free travel passes for mobility-impaired people.

Considering how essential sight is to safe travel both in urban and rural areas and the scarcity of guide dogs among the blind in Ireland, I can't envisage a fair reason for denying visually impaired people free travel.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe this will force the issuing of proper travel passes? Although they know the number of eligible persons they dont know how many actual bits of paper are in use or how many are used by relatives long after the original recipient has died.

What kind of pass do you think would be better all around? Credit card size with name address and picture?

I heard 1 in 4 people had a travel pass and a great number are being confiscated daly.

bmaxi

While I'd agree the area of the FTP is open to abuse, I think there are other areas of SW that need to be looked at before any thought is given to removing it from our pensioners and disabled. The whole area of single parents is a huge black hole over which there is little or no regulation and which devours multiples of the FTP. There is no doubt that some are deserving cases but abuse of the system is widespread with partners living with claimants and rooms being rented out in houses for which rent allowance is being paid. The abuse of the SW system is chronic and the Dept seems to be unable or unwilling to tackle it. The ludicrous system of giving claimants two weeks notice of a visit by a WO is laughable, visits shold be at short notice to avoid evidence of co-habiting being removed. Plus there is the little matter of the millions handed over to our politicians in unvouched expenses every year, imagine going in to your boss and putting out your hand for €15,000 for nothing, I know what you'd be told.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Victor

bmaxi wrote: »

While I'd agree the area of the FTP is open to abuse, I think there are other areas of SW that need to be looked at before any thought is given to removing it from our pensioners and disabled. The whole area of single parents is a huge black hole over which there is little or no regulation and which devours multiples of the FTP. There is no doubt that some are deserving cases but abuse of the system is widespread with partners living with claimants and rooms being rented out in houses for which rent allowance is being paid. The abuse of the SW system is chronic and the Dept seems to be unable or unwilling to tackle it. The ludicrous system of giving claimants two weeks notice of a visit by a WO is laughable, visits shold be at short notice to avoid evidence of co-habiting being removed. Plus there is the little matter of the millions handed over to our politicians in unvouched expenses every year, imagine going in to your boss and putting out your hand for €15,000 for nothing, I know what you'd be told.

But none of that is relevant to the Commuting & Transport forum.

Moderator

bmaxi

Then let's stop looking at the FTP in the same light, in terms of a drain on the taxpayer. The FTP was never envisaged as a hardship allowance, it was a social "gift", a recognition of the older generation's struggle to build the state. It was intended to be used exactly as it is, to allow recipients to travel from one end of the state to the other for free, not at concessionary rates, peak hour restrictions were only in urban areas and only on buses. This was because, at the time it was introduced, buses were much more widely used than they are now. I can't see why any of the conditions should be changed, barring FTP holders from peak time services would have very little effect. if buses are carrying less passengers then their frequency will be reduced, It's basic economics which can only adversely affect fare paying passengers. Strict enforcement of bus lanes and other, widely ignored, traffic regulations, would have a more beneficial effect on bus services than a peak time ban on FTP holders
The first thing that needs to be tackled IMO, if it's really a case of eradicating fraud, which I doubt, is to require pass holders to carry some form of official photo id, this could be a DL, Passport or the type of photo ID currently used by students, this could be used while the DSP is arseing about developing an official ID. Then there is the question of verifying the ID, there is no reason why anybody travelling long distance by bus or train cannot have their ID verified by either the ticket issuer or by the bus driver. City bus drivers are always in too much of a hurry to look at travel passes, but what has happened to inspectors? They used to be on every second bus, now they are rarely seen.
Then there is the question of qualifying conditions. Personally, I can't see why prisoners on day release or junkies qualify under the free travel scheme, these are both self inflicted injuries IMO. This is a case of some Civil Servant exercising his "God given right" to spend your money rather than bother to put forward an argument against the bleeding heart liberals.
Really, the travel companies need to enforce the regulations regarding free travel and the Government and those opponents of the FTS need to remember the spirit in which it was introduced. It was probably the only selfless act in the long career of CJH.

foggy_lad

Prisoners and their wives get travel warrants which cover a return journey for visits etc much the same as those in the Army or FCA get their travel paid for.

Being a drug addict is not a qualifier for free travel or for invalidity or disability pension but many of the psychiatric illnesses which do qualify make the people affected far more susceptible to drug addiction and anti social behaviour.

bmaxi

foggy_lad wrote: »

Prisoners and their wives get travel warrants which cover a return journey for visits etc much the same as those in the Army or FCA get their travel paid for.

Being a drug addict is not a qualifier for free travel or for invalidity or disability pension but many of the psychiatric illnesses which do qualify make the people affected far more susceptible to drug addiction and anti social behaviour.

Still don't see why prisoners qualify, they're there to pay a debt not cause one.
I take your point about psychiatric illnesses and this is an area which is wide open to abuse, not just in terms of the FTP. It's a chicken and egg situation in which judgment at the highest level is required.