DSP passes based on 1973 passenger estimates.

Losty Dublin

Some food for thought in relation to DSP passes from a Dail Committee yesterday. But seriously, 1973 figures used by the DSP? :eek: The relevant material from the report is pasted below along with the linked site

Annual payments of some € 61m to CIÉ for the State’s free travel scheme is based on a passenger estimate from 1973, the secretary general of the Department of Social Protection said today. Niamh O’Donoghue was speaking at the examination of her department’s accounts by the Public Accounts Committee. Committee chairman John McGuinness expressed shock at learning of the 30 year lag in data during the meeting.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052[/QUOTE]

foggy_lad

“I am shocked you continue pay the company money and do not know the numbers” that use it, Mr McGuinness said. The public services card being introduced by the Department would allow usage to be monitored, she said.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052

Maybe this will force the issuing of proper travel passes? Although they know the number of eligible persons they dont know how many actual bits of paper are in use or how many are used by relatives long after the original recipient has died.

mydiscworld

DSP will be issuing a public service card with photo id, etc at SAFE2 level, to all free pass holders in the coming year. That should help.

Assume DSP will now recalculate the amount they owe CIE annually based on current passenger numbers. Likely to mean increasing the annual payment, though it is capped by the Gov at present.

A handy, backdoor way, if they remove the cap, for the Gov to bailout CIE without an official bailout.

LXFlyer

It's hardly "bailing them out" - rather paying them what is actually owed.

bk

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

All carers have full eligibility although this could be restricted to when they are accompanying the person they are carer for.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/How-do-I-qualify-for-free-travel.aspx

If you are under age 66 and permanently living in the State, you will qualify for a Free Travel Pass if one of the statements below applies to you:

You are getting one of the following payments:
Invalidity Pension,
Blind Pension,
Disability Allowance,
Incapacity Supplement or Workmen's Compensation with Disablement Pension, for at least 12 months,
Carer's Allowance, (you may get a single status pass only, if you are under age 66),
social security invalidity payment, or a similar payment, for at least 12 months, from a country covered by EC Regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement. See below for details.
or
You are a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from this Department (you may get a single status pass only, if you are under age 66),
or
You are blind or severely visually impaired and you satisfy the medical conditions for the Blind Pension,
or
You are a widow, widower or surviving civil partner aged 60 to 65 inclusive and your late spouse or civil partner held a Free Travel Pass and at the time of their death, you were permanently living together. In this case, you must be getting one of the following payments:
State Pension (Transition) (from age 65),
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Contributory Pension,
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Non-Contributory Pension,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefits Scheme,
a similar social security payment from a country covered by EC Regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement. (See below for details),
an ordinary Garda Widow's Pension from the Department of Justice and Law Reform.

eejoynt

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

maybe people who use a free travel pass to deliver for a business?:D

foggy_lad

eejoynt wrote: »

Who do you see having their eligibility removed or restricted?

maybe people who use a free travel pass to deliver for a business?:D

Surely those running a business would want much more reliable delivery options than bus or train and with the low cost of couriers it would be cheaper to use them than try to deliver goods by bus or train?

Have you seen many business people delivering goods by bus or train? are businesses going to recruit an army of pass holders to deliver goods to shops around the country? surely those persons would then be employed and no longer eligible.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

I believe the cap was actually imposed by the EU/IMF and rightly so.

I'd imagine we will see a curtailment in who the pass is valid for and which journeys and when it can be used, rather then an increase in subsidies.

I guess you neglected to see the reference to DSP estimations based on 1973 levels.

loyatemu

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Annual payments of some € 61m to CIÉ for the State’s free travel scheme is based on a passenger estimate from 1973...Committee chairman John McGuinness expressed shock at learning of the 30 year lag in data during the meeting....

was this meeting held 10 years ago?

Losty Dublin

loyatemu wrote: »

was this meeting held 10 years ago?

That's what the Times reported from the Dail Committee. It may be based on the fact that the PSO has been reduced 4 times from it's 2008 level so it may be at or about it's 2003 level. When the committee record is posted online then it may give a more accurate breakdown.

bk

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

They could do a lot of things but they are less likely to do anything that affects the disabled/elderly imo.

Off peak travel creates an issue with the great difference in urban and rural transport and capping intercity tickets will also create issues with the urban rural divide. many in rural areas rely solely on intercity journeys. Excluding the disabled is an option but they would have to exclude the blind, deaf, amputees, physically and mentally handicapped etc.

Those on medication and those who buy and sell their medication on Abbey street at the luas stop could be excluded but it would be hard to do as they would each have to be brought to court and barred from public transport and they would be entitled to free legal aid and most likely would have to be brought around by taxis after that at the taxpayers expense.

the carers were added to the list in the boom years and really should only be allowed travel when accompanying the person they care for. after this the pass should only be available to Irish citizens and only those born in Ireland and it should be means tested!

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

I'd agree with limiting the scope of who is entitled to travel under the scheme drastically; OAP's and those who genuinely cannot drive through genuine impairment should be the extent of who gets access to the scheme and not via advocation of a quack claiming back pain or a social workers letter .

Some sort of a fare for long haul bus/rail travel would be a good move as it will help transport providers to get some cashflow plus it places a value to the consumer of what they get; a middle ground if you will.

However, it gets away from the fact that the DSP grossly underfunds the scheme for what it gets in 2013 and making good this shortfall has to be addressed by Messer O'Donohue and Burton.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd agree with limiting the scope of who is entitled to travel under the scheme drastically; OAP's and those who genuinely cannot drive through genuine impairment should be the extent of who gets access to the scheme and not via advocation of a quack claiming back pain or a social workers letter .

So you think the DSP panel of doctors as well as all the GPs in the country are nothing but Quacks?

You would also want prisoners and their wives and children to be denied free travel for day release and visits?

Some sort of a fare for long haul bus/rail travel would be a good move as it will help transport providers to get some cashflow plus it places a value to the consumer of what they get; a middle ground if you will.

However, it gets away from the fact that the DSP grossly underfunds the scheme for what it gets in 2013 and making good this shortfall has to be addressed by Messer O'Donohue and Burton.

It is not the job of the free travel scheme to keep failing companies afloat. and you know very little about most of those availing of the free travel scheme if you believe they don't value it and see it as having no value! I know several older people who use their free travel to visit family members miles away to get their dinner and also to visit their local pub where they might socialise once a week, for some this is the only time they see other people in their area.

I also know of people who have been diagnosed by several of your "Quacks" and they have free travel but they also have to pay for taxis to/from their local railway station or bus stop because their quack claims they have back pain. These people must be plain stupid to pay for taxis they don't need, according to you!

Richard Logue

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

LXFlyer

I think that there would have to be a split between Intercity/rural trips and city services for such restrictions to work.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

Most are classed as disabled due to being under the care of the mental health services, for many their drug addictions are as a result of their serious mental health issues. Most have been failed by successive governments who have not catered to their mental health needs.

Going Forward

Was there anything to stop BE and others manipulating incorrect passenger usage data to boost travel numbers and claim repayment from the DSP?

For example Mrs. X travelled just a couple of times on her FTP, but unbeknown to her, she could be claimed for on every single journey, as there were no adequate checks as far as can be seen.

It looks like the DSP was subsidising BE, How else does BE operate a 53 seater to the back of beyond with 10 pensioners on it and no one paying for the privelidge?? !!!!:):)

Going Forward

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

FTP conditions should be confined/imposed county-wise, if you want to go from one end of the country and back to pass the time, FTP holders should be charged at half rate.

I would bet that most holders would not complain, although not sure how much that measure alone would save.

ezra_pound

bk wrote: »

Well there is all sorts of ways they could restrict it.

- Make it available to OAPs only
- Increase the age of entitlement to 70, 75, etc.
- Allow it to be used off peak only
- Cap intercity tickets at €10 one way (leave people pay for a free intercity trip on a bus or put the money to a full intercity train ticket).

Not saying they will or should do this, just that they could do it.

That's pretty shameful leaving out disabled people!

Going Forward

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most are classed as disabled due to being under the care of the mental health services, for many their drug addictions are as a result of their serious mental health issues. Most have been failed by successive governments who have not catered to their mental health needs.

They also add a bit of colour and character to the services with their customary bonhomie.

ezra_pound

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually agree with bk on this.

The free travel scheme as it currently stands is a massive and unnecessary drain on taxpayers money and should be restricted.

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.
Carers should pay full fares.
Not clear as to why junkies in Middle Abbey St can have free travel - are they disabled too?

That's a pretty anti-disabled attitude you have there. Why should wealthy pensioners get free travel over a poor disabled person attending a day center/ work. The disabled need to be incentivised to engage in work and society.

hfallada

I cant understand why all OAPs get free travel while in most countries they pay full fare or get half fares. Obviously free travel won whatever Government was in power in the 1970s a few more votes. But is unnecessary in 2013 when most OAPs have a car. They should contribute something to CIE when travelling on it. Considering that the Irish population is ageing is not going to be stable forever so it might as well be done soon.

In Germany and France students get half price travel not like the ****ty 25% off travel which is ridiculous considering a working person who gets a tax saver ticket gets a ticket which is cheaper than a student. I know some people believe students shouldnt get a reduced rate but most students dont have jobs in college and pay €18.20 for 5 days travel compared to someone working and can claim some of the expense back is a bit unreasonable.

Victor

There is a limited pot of money available. In allocating it, people in the most need should be prioritised. Nobody should have it sweet, and nobody should be screwed over.

Possible options would be:
* Convert some of the PSO subsidy into payment for the FTP.
* Curtail FTP travel to local services, within a county or group of counties (e.g. someone in County Cork could only use services in County Cork, someone in Meath could only use services in Meath, Dublin and Louth), or to the nearest city (people living in Kerry could travel for free as far as Limerick or Cork. Cue Kilkenny no longer being a city ),
* Have users pay a contribution to the fare, especially on long distance services.
* Set three rates - adult, 16-26 and concessionary (children, pensioners, people with disabilities), whereby people would pay 100%, 75% and 50% of the nominal fare, with no cap and no discounts on discounts. 16-26 and concessionary available only via specified ID.
* As peak time transport is the most expensive transport to provide and the one most in demand, shift the balance of restrictions, e.g. no free travel or no concessionary travel at those times.
* Curtail the number of companion passes to those who actually need a companion to travel.
* Apply a means test.

Victor

It seems that each Social Welfare Local Office (not branch office) is expected to sign 200 people up to the new Public Services Card (PSC) each week. There appears to be 50 such offices, although distribution is somewhat uneven - 5 in each of Kerry and Mayo, but only 4 in Cork - despite 3 times the population and twice the land area.

That is about 509,600 maximum that can be processed each year, with a population of a bit more than 4,500,000 it will take more than 10 years to record everyone, when you account for the more than 500,000 people that will be born or immigrate in that time.

AlekSmart

mydiscworld wrote: »

DSP will be issuing a public service card with photo id, etc at SAFE2 level, to all free pass holders in the coming year. That should help.

Assume DSP will now recalculate the amount they owe CIE annually based on current passenger numbers. Likely to mean increasing the annual payment, though it is capped by the Gov at present.

A handy, backdoor way, if they remove the cap, for the Gov to bailout CIE without an official bailout.

It should be noted that the DSP is only to begin the issue of the PS Card in 2013.

By the Departments own admission,this is an involved and lengthy process which is likely to take up to 5 years to complete.

The problem is that the Department continues to insist upon the Old "Cornflakes Box" document remaining valid during the transition process.

It also has to be noted that the DSP prevaricated until the last possible moment before deciding not to utilize Leapcard as it's Free Travel enabling document.

This was but one reason for the extended gestation period of Leapcard and for its even more extended lead-in period.

The latest revelations from the Dáil Committee shows that the DSP has not addressed the significant issue of Fraudlent Usage in any meaningful way.

It would be interesting to have a question asked as to what number of Free Travel Documents are on record as being returned following the death of a pass-holder or a pass-holder otherwise losing entitlement.

The issue also posthumously confirms the former CIE Chairman Micheal Mc Donnell's assertion concerning the shortfall in funding the CIE group companies participation in the Free Travel Scheme.

What the committee failed to tease out in its questioning of Ms O Donoghue was any indication as whether the DSP can continue to issue new Free Travel Documents at the current rate,particularly to those other than OAP's.

Last year alone,some 26,000 new Free Travel Passes were issued to bring the total number of passes to c.743,000.

It would appear that Ms O Donoghue has,at best, a somewhat simplistic understanding of how schems such as this are funded...

Department secretary general Niamh O'Donoghue said she did not know why a survey of users had not been carried out since 1973. But she also said the department was probably making a saving as free travel numbers had most probably increased since then

.

So,we are now asked to accept a totally outlandish statement at face value,simply because it comes from a Senior Civil Servant ?

As this issue rumbles on,it is going to develop,and possibly along avenues which some will not like.

There are two ways to address the current Funding emergency.

One is to immediately suspend the entire Free Travel Scheme and introduce an interim Concessionary Fare (€1 City Bus Fare. €2 Dart/Urban/Express Bus.€5 Train ) on production of the current valid Pass.

All Free Travel entitlement to be on a Passholder Only basis with no automatic spousal/partner entitlement.

The second method,and most likely the one being adopted,entails the "surveying" of current usage patterns and the eventual replacement of the cardboard pass with a chipped smartcard.

This method has the political advantage of not being confrontational and of also perhaps extending over the lifetime of a couple of different administrations,thereby limiting Political fallout.

The Free Travel Scheme has been mismanaged and rendered unworkable by the lack of acumen displayed by successive Social Welfare departments and their Ministers.

To admit to a 40 year data vacuum,of itself is high-profile resignation material,but to attempt to insist that the present arrangements can continue is beyond nonsensical.

To suggest that Ireland can support a Public Transport System which has over a third of the countrys adult population travelling at no cost is unsustainable,it simply cannot be budgeted for in any shape or form,but I reckon we'll see an attempt anyway !!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is a great pity that you view it as such Fred Swanson.

The reality however,is that the DSP itself has fostered a situation whereby the term "Disabled" has become unrecognisable in any meaningful way.

We have now arrived at a situation whereby there are very real concerns that those who are genuinely disabled may well see their Free Travel entitlement reduced/abolished as the funding has evaporated.

For my own part,my vitriol is directed at a Senior Civil Servant who quite blatently admits that her Department operated such an impostant Social Protection system on 40 year old statistical information,whilst insisting that expanding the scheme whilst freezing its funding is somehow or other sustainable ....?

I would suggest that the Secretary General in question should recieve a little more vitriol just to ensure she stays awake !

AlekSmart

Going Forward wrote: »

Was there anything to stop BE and others manipulating incorrect passenger usage data to boost travel numbers and claim repayment from the DSP?

For example Mrs. X travelled just a couple of times on her FTP, but unbeknown to her, she could be claimed for on every single journey, as there were no adequate checks as far as can be seen.

It looks like the DSP was subsidising BE, How else does BE operate a 53 seater to the back of beyond with 10 pensioners on it and no one paying for the privelidge?? !!!!:):)

Actually Going Forward,this is now the nub of the issue.

The DSP Free Travel scheme ostensibly operated on a negotiated annualized Lump-Sum basis,with the Department of Social Protection allocating a set amount based upon usage patterns and data available to it.

The perception was that this process was automatically updated annually to take account of changing demographics and travel patterns.

However we now know,since the Dail Committee testimony,that the DSP has not updated this statistical data since 1973.

The only element which changed was the Departments overall Free Travel scheme allocation.

Once allocated,it was then disbursed along the exact same lines every year for 40 years .......:mad:

The issue of the 53 seater with the 10 passengers is not necessarily the same,as it may well come under the Public Service Obligation requirement,of which the DSP Free Travel Scheme,is only one element of many which may be taken into account.

lucernarian

Richard Logue wrote: »

All peak time travel should be abolished. I would restrict the free passes to pensioners only at off peak. If they want to travel at peak times they should pay the full fare.
Disabled pass holders should be restricted to medical/hospital visits only. No reason for any of them them to travel around the country for free.

Hmmm, why should pensioners be eligible for free travel passes yet the blind and those with mobility impairments be excluded? I don't know why a pensioner has more right to free travel than someone in a wheelchair for example... Especially as not every elderly person has mobility problems, and may even be able to afford to drive their own car around (I know that's a small minority but still).