6N: Wales v England, Sat 16th March 1700 RTÉ/BBC

Tigerandahalf

The seedings matter little. If you are good enough you can beat anyone. Agree though that this is a fantastic bunch of Welsh players. Fantastic atmosphere in that stadium tonight and they played great rugby.

Tox56

Fits Morris wrote: »

This is a true Golden Generation of players that Wales have at the moment. Far and away better than anything Ireland have had over the last 12/13 years.

England took New Zealand apart in December but they were taken apart in the most brutal fashion this evening. It beggars belief how a team that now has two Six Nations championships in a row (including a Grand Slam) and were semi-finalists in the World Cup were seeded third in the RWC 2015 draw. There's something very, very wrong with the seeding system.

They lost to Australia 3 times in the summer, lost to all of Argentina, Samoa, New Zealand and Australia at home. They were going into this 6N on the back of 7 defeats in a row. In fact, in the period from the start of the World Cup up to when the rankings were counted (2012 AI's), Wales actually lost more games than they won. They're a very talented team but some of the hype is going way over the top after today

Tigerandahalf

The rankings dont matter a jot. Who cares about them. Not only are Wales the champions but they play the best brand of rugby. England are dire in comparison. That Welsh win in Paris also showed the great character they have.

Utopia Parkway

Tox56 wrote: »

They lost to Australia 3 times in the summer, lost to all of Argentina, Samoa, New Zealand and Australia at home. They were going into this 6N on the back of 7 defeats in a row. In fact, in the period from the start of the World Cup up to when the rankings were counted (2012 AI's), Wales actually lost more games than they won. They're a very talented team but some of the hype is going way over the top after today

That is the way of boards.ie. You're only as good as your last game.

Wales were actually pretty average for all their previous games but saved their best for last. That's all that gets remembered.

Fits Morris

Tox56 wrote: »

They lost to Australia 3 times in the summer, lost to all of Argentina, Samoa, New Zealand and Australia at home. They were going into this 6N on the back of 7 defeats in a row. In fact, in the period from the start of the World Cup up to when the rankings were counted (2012 AI's), Wales actually lost more games than they won. They're a very talented team but some of the hype is going way over the top after today

Those seven losses all came in friendly matches (Test matches if you must call them that but they are essentially friendlies). It's a ridiculous system.

Wales have lost 3 competitive matches out of 16 in the last 18 months (4 if you count the WC third place play-off, which I don't).

Amprodude

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

That is the way of boards.ie. You're only as good as your last game.

Wales were actually pretty average for all their previous games but saved their best for last. That's all that gets remembered.

They are still more successful than Ireland when it comes down to the real matters though.

Utopia Parkway

Amprodude wrote: »

They are still more successful than Ireland when it comes down to the real matters though.

What does that have to do with anything? Who said they weren't?

Amprodude

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything? Who said they weren't?

You have people on here saying Wales are very average but if Ireland had their success and played like them, we would be saying how great our team is. What are we comparing Wales to? Is it 6Nations? If so, then Wales are the best simple as and are above average in this competition. To me any team that wins the 6 nations back to back including a GS is a great team. When did Ireland do this last?

Fits Morris

Amprodude wrote: »

You have people on here saying Wales are very average but if Ireland had their success and played like them, we would be saying how great our team is. What are we comparing Wales to? Is it 6Nations? If so, then Wales are the best simple as and are above average in this competition. To me any team that wins the 6 nations back to back including a GS is a great team. When did Ireland do this last?

There's no doubt that Wales can win the World Cup in 2015. It's an exceedingly young team and it will only improve. They have quality to burn in most positions.

The Lions team this year will likely be the youngest in history. England are also a coming force and the French will always be there, crap coach or no crap coach.

Northern Hemisphere rugby is where it's at at the moment.

duckysauce

Fits Morris wrote: »

This is a true Golden Generation of players that Wales have at the moment. Far and away better than anything Ireland have had over the last 12/13 years.

England took New Zealand apart in December but they were taken apart in the most brutal fashion this evening. It beggars belief how a team that now has two Six Nations championships in a row (including a Grand Slam) and were semi-finalists in the World Cup were seeded third in the RWC 2015 draw. There's something very, very wrong with the seeding system.

jesus half the NZ team had food poisoning, no wonder Engalnd beat them Carter did not even want to be there

English Lurker

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah, but if they can learn to score tries, they will still be a dangerous side. Wales won the battle of the breakdown today, and it all flows from there, but I don't suddenly think England have become easybeats.

For me it started when we failed to get carriers across the gainline. It's so much easier to win breakdowns when they're retreating and you're not. I daresay there will be a lot of comments about England being strong and physical and not a lot else, already seen a couple, but I repeat again that England have the lightest pack in the Six Nations. We are not that strong and physical. If we were, it might have been different. But we aren't and it wasn't.

That and the scrum. We rely on denying the opponent points and turning the screws. Doesn't work if your scrum is in trouble. Woodward said eventually England would meet a team they couldn't beat with character and penalties and what then - well we have. Hopefully this accelerates the building of a team that can do a bit more.

The only thing I'm a bit miffed about is that Wales would pick that game to suddenly open up and really find that mojo, but we did make it mildly easy for them at the end. Oi vey. At least there's nothing to hide behind, which is good.

Btw, reason I never replied to your initial post asking for my prediction is I couldn't decide whether we'd make it a tight game and edge it, or whether their scrum and back three superiority would ensure no tight game... half-right I guess.

Judgement Day

Fits Morris wrote: »

There's no doubt that Wales can win the World Cup in 2015. It's an exceedingly young team and it will only improve. They have quality to burn in most positions.

The Lions team this year will likely be the youngest in history. England are also a coming force and the French will always be there, crap coach or no crap coach.

Northern Hemisphere rugby is where it's at at the moment.

Can we sticky this post please?

OldRio

"Northern Hemisphere rugby is where it's at at the moment."

Sarcasm ??

Noffles

We saved the best till last, I was amazed at how good we were at times... England were taken apart all over the pitch.

Simply put, we play good 6 Nations rugby and can turn it on when we need to.

iroced

Tox56 wrote: »

They lost to Australia 3 times in the summer, lost to all of Argentina, Samoa, New Zealand and Australia at home. They were going into this 6N on the back of 7 defeats in a row. In fact, in the period from the start of the World Cup up to when the rankings were counted (2012 AI's), Wales actually lost more games than they won. They're a very talented team but some of the hype is going way over the top after today

For such a small country I actually think the hype around Wales is very small. They have the best record in the 6N. Won 3 of the last 6 6N (including 2 GS), finished 4th at the last WC, continue "producing" amazing players every year and play great rugby. If it was France doing this everyone would be going crazy around the French Flair. Let's face it, it's Wales Flair we should be talking about.

shuffol

iroced wrote: »

For such a small country I actually think the hype around Wales is very small. They have the best record in the 6N. Won 3 of the last 6 6N (including 2 GS), finished 4th at the last WC, continue "producing" amazing players every year and play great rugby. If it was France doing this everyone would be going crazy around the French Flair. Let's face it, it's Wales Flair we should be talking about.

In fairness Wales have shown very little flair throughout the tournament, they werent exactly cutting England apart yesterday eiither, just crushed them up front and a couple of excellent finishes off turnover ball.

Swiwi

Fits Morris wrote: »

This is a true Golden Generation of players that Wales have at the moment. Far and away better than anything Ireland have had over the last 12/13 years.

England took New Zealand apart in December but they were taken apart in the most brutal fashion this evening. It beggars belief how a team that now has two Six Nations championships in a row (including a Grand Slam) and were semi-finalists in the World Cup were seeded third in the RWC 2015 draw. There's something very, very wrong with the seeding system.

Ah Fits Morris, welcome back. One swallow a summer does not make, and neither does one very good win over England a golden generation make, unless your definition of golden generation is 2 consecutive 6N championships.

If I understand your logic you are saying because England beat NZ and Wales beat England, that Wales are amazing. But Ireland beat Wales... And of course England "only" beat NZ in a "friendly", so well that doesn't count then does it?

Which do you think Wales would rather have, a victory over Scotland in the 6N or a victory over NZ in a "friendly"?

Wales could win 6N until the cows come home, until they beat SH teams on a regular basis they won't be taken seriously in the SH (I'm simply stating this, regardless of my own viewpoint), currently they haven't beat NZ since 1953, they have lost 5 or 6 consecutive games v Aussie, and it's been a while since they beat SA.

I do agree that if they win 2015 that would be a golden moment, as they would have escaped the pool of death AND beaten the likes of France and the 4N on the way to victory AND they would have done it at Twickenham.

They were excellent yesterday, but they were dire v France, and until they start stringing victories like these together, and most importantly accumulate a few SH scalps, I don't think you can talk of a GG, unlike England 2003 who had a number of significant victories over the SH, including beating NZ with 13 men in Wellington....and of course a RWC to boot.

iroced

shuffol wrote: »

In fairness Wales have shown very little flair throughout the tournament, they werent exactly cutting England apart yesterday eiither, just crushed them up front and a couple of excellent finishes off turnover ball.

Admittedly. But first who can produce 80 minute sof Flair ? And second, I'm looking at it as a whole over the last 2-3 years (could actually go back 5-6 years). Wales can produce tons of phases and keep progressing, alterning short passes, long passes, play with the forwards and with their backs with a good amount of "rugby IQ". To me the Flair is not exclusively down to "instinctive playing". The way Wales build their long attacking phases may not be "instant creativity" but "thought (in the sense of prepared) creativity" and over the last couple of years, except for NZ I haven't seen any team capable of doing it consistently.

I feel people are talking a lot about their defeats in all the summer and autumn "friendly" tests. Well that's one way to look at it. Personally I give more importance to their 9 wins out of the last 10 "competition" games in the 6N.

Finally, about yesterday's game, I think England were much better than a lot of the comments I've read in here. I can't remember people highlighting the fact that they still are a very inexperienced team (e.g. a lot of the English players were making their premiere in the Millenium) and more importantly that they are 2 years ahead of everyone (except for Wales which also have a lot of young players) in the NH for the preparation of the WC. When you look at Ireland and France today which both need some kind of a revolution :rolleyes: ...

WorldRugby99

To me England started 6 nations well but got progressively worse as tournament went on.In their last 4 games they scored one try(tuilagi v france and that was fortuitous).And although they beat france/italy-they had been poor so a defeat was coming.
Wales after a poor start got better ,gathering momentum each game so they kind of played england at the right time for them.

But it doesnt suddenly make england a bad side-there is the basis of a good team there-they do need more experience,more tactical nous and need a few selection changes. Bring twelvetress in at 12 and give wings like may and wade a go and the backline will score tries again.return of corbisiero and morgan will bolster the pack.

Equally despite all the welsh media and welsh fans going into overdrive yet again,Its one game and there is no evidence yet wales can produce that level consistently or against the likes of NZ or safrica. Wales incredibly have the poorest record of the home nations against the southern hemisphere teams. I still remain sceptical wales are actually good enough to join that elite group.

france and ireland have been poor this year and england got progressively worse-it has been a poor tournament quality wise in my opinion.Wales deserved champions-but only just-its almost been a year when no one deserved it!

toomevara

Wales did their homework on England very well. They also played steve Walsh like a fiddle.By picking two out and out sevens, they absolutely destroyed England at the breakdown and deprived them of any decent go forward. Jones also destroyed Dan Cole at the scrum and they defended like demons. Fair play to them, they were well worth the win and their Journey from the first 40 against Ireland to the last 40 against England must be one of the most remarkable in the 6N.

When England have forward dominance and plan A is going according to plan they look great, but put it up to them and they struggle...

CatFromHue

Wales only gave away 7 penalties yesterday compared to the 14 and 13 penalties Ireland and France gave away against England. Add that into to Englands lack of offensive ability and Wales's defensive prowess (Ireland were the only team to score a try against them) meant Wales were always going to be on top. It was very nice that they won so well too, while there might be debate over how much flair they play with, as they have scored tries in all their 6N games.

rrpc

toomevara wrote: »

Wales did their homework on England very well. They also played steve Walsh like a fiddle.By picking two out and out sevens, they absolutely destroyed England at the breakdown and deprived them of any decent go forward. Jones also destroyed Dan Cole at the scrum and they defended like demons. Fair play to them, they were well worth the win and their Journey from the first 40 against Ireland to the last 40 against England must be one of the most remarkable in the 6N.

When England have forward dominance and plan A is going according to plan they look great, but put it up to them and they struggle...

England have looked very limited all 6N. It should have been earlier that they were beaten, but fate and poor coaching from other teams left the job up to Wales.

Who did it admirably. Cracker of a game and rescued the 6N from the dire stuff that had preceded it.

sydthebeat

rrpc wrote: »

England have looked very limited all 6N. It should have been earlier that they were beaten, but fate and poor coaching from other teams left the job up to Wales.

Who did it admirably. Cracker of a game and rescued the 6N from the dire stuff that had preceded it.

very limited but effective and dare i say getting results belying their capabilities.

On the other hand we have obvious talent in our 4 provinces but seem to only get it to come together once in a blue moon. very disheartening.

Taco Corp

pickarooney

For all the talk of Wales' groundhogs winning this match, I'm pretty sure that at or near half time the turnover count was 3-1 in England's favour.

Edit: Just checked, by the end England had conceded 19 but had made 16 themselves so it's not aparticularly significant difference. They each won 95% of their own rucks too.

Webbs

pickarooney wrote: »

For all the talk of Wales' groundhogs winning this match, I'm pretty sure that at or near half time the turnover count was 3-1 in England's favour.

Edit: Just checked, by the end England had conceded 19 but had made 16 themselves so it's not aparticularly significant difference. They each won 95% of their own rucks too.

The Turnovers are icing on a cake but the real benefit of the Welsh backrow is the speed of ball from their own rucks and also slowing down the ball from the opposition.
England didn't have decent ball all day and as a result showed up their ponderous backline, compare that to Englands first game against Scotland where it was quick ball and the backs looked good.

fryup

i'm just throwing this out there.....

but the fact that wales play some of their games (the important ones) under a closed roof > give them an unfair advantage? esp considering when there's no weather related reason to do so

i mean when you're playing at home the crowd are going to be behind you but under a closed roof the intensity increases ten-fold, so is that fair on the opposition??

on a side note - the FAI are currently having a tiff with the swedish FA about something similar

Tox56

fryup wrote: »

i'm just throwing this out there.....

but the fact that wales play some of their games (the important ones) under a closed roof > give them an unfair advantage? esp considering when there's no weather related reason to do so

i mean when you're playing at home the crowd are going to be behind you but under a closed roof the intensity increases ten-fold, so is that fair on the opposition??

on a side note - the FAI are currently having a tiff with the swedish FA about something similar

The opposition have to agree to close it and on this occasion England did

fryup

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

did they?? didn't know that....more the fools them

duckysauce

Croft on Halfpenny doesn't look good

"Just to clarify, I did NOT spit on @LeighHalfpenny1 during the Eng v Wal match, I think it's disgusting and has no place in the game," Croft said yesterday.

Taken from rugbydump.