Great Train Rip-Off continues

Judgement Day

Good value but why on earth would anybody want to go to Aberdeen? I can understand the getting out of Cork bit.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you are going to Cork one way then why is the return fare on Luas mentioned? Why even mention it at all when it has nothing to do with the fare of Dublin to Cork

I was talking all return fares. Cheapest return fare to Cork is €18 Aircoach, €43 Irish Rail booked 7 days in advance.

The Luas does count, as Aircoach brings you right into O'Conell St, where most people (myself included) are going.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Them stupid load announcements stop you from missing your stop when you fall asleep.

Which is irrelevant if you are just going Cork to Dublin end to end and want to sleep.

I'm just pointing out the pro's and con's between the services.

Unlike some people here, I actually do regularly take this journey and I'm pointing out the pro's and con's that make me choice the train/bus.

Personally I get the bus to and from O'Connell St to complete my journey, so the extra cost, time and effort of the Luas does play a part in my choice of service.

Also I honestly find the bus more comfortable then the train due to the reclining seats, smoother and quieter ride and thus being able to sleep on it.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What? The best part of €50 for a coffee Foggy? You sure now? is that a typo?

I'm sure the point that foggy was making is that it is ridiculous to pay 2.5 to 6 times the cost of a coach ticket just so you can buy an over-expensive and average coffee.

It was in response to the suggestion that I couldn't buy a coffee on the bus. Which is true, but then instead I just bought a cheaper and much better coffee before getting on the bus.

Capt'n Midnight

how about this ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056895709

€10 Flights From Cork To Gdańsk
"They're coming from Gdańsk to see the film!!"

bk

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

how about this ?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056895709

Yup, an amazing deal, Gdansk/Sopot/Gydnia are very nice with lovely people (and great public transport). I was there 5 times last year!! I highly recommend it.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

I was talking all return fares. Cheapest return fare to Cork is €18 Aircoach, €43 Irish Rail booked 7 days in advance.

The Luas does count, as Aircoach brings you right into O'Conell St, where most people (myself included) are going.



Which is irrelevant if you are just going Cork to Dublin end to end and want to sleep.

I'm just pointing out the pro's and con's between the services.

Unlike some people here, I actually do regularly take this journey and I'm pointing out the pro's and con's that make me choice the train/bus.

Personally I get the bus to and from O'Connell St to complete my journey, so the extra cost, time and effort of the Luas does play a part in my choice of service.

Also I honestly find the bus more comfortable then the train due to the reclining seats, smoother and quieter ride and thus being able to sleep on it.



I'm sure the point that foggy was making is that it is ridiculous to pay 2.5 to 6 times the cost of a coach ticket just so you can buy an over-expensive and average coffee.

It was in response to the suggestion that I couldn't buy a coffee on the bus. Which is true, but then instead I just bought a cheaper and much better coffee before getting on the bus.

If you go by that logic then why not include the bus fare out into the suburbs or the price of petrol from home to the car park in heuston or from the outback of Cork to the station.
The announcements may be irrelevant to you but you wouldnt be the only on on that train that goes all the way to Cork.
Nobody suggested to get the train just for the coffee but thats its available if you want it.
Its an old argument at this stage, its horses for courses and people wont be happy until every available transport option is there for them outside their front door for free.
The fare to Cork is expensive but not a rip off .

steamengine

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport. Clearly a low profit margin, bus/coach ticket doesn't allow for these costs, so in effect the Intercity bus traveller is subsidised as well.

While the following report is complex - comparisons on the various charts are readily comprehendable, along with the total figures for each transport mode.

The total external costs for 2008 per Irish inhabitant are given in Table 19 - €839. Rail only accounts for €11 of that amount.

http://ecocalc-test.ecotransit.org/CE_Delft_4215_External_Costs_of_Transport_in_Europe_def.pdf

Judgement Day

Yes, and we won't even bring in the estimated cost of annual road deaths to the equation. There's an old report which gives some figures here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:FpmCnYlWRi0J:rsa.ie/Documents/About%2520Us/JOC%252005%2520Submission.doc+cost+of+road+deaths&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjZQXnqp_Ecs4yWygwfpigMzkWL_Jf_P7J_8TmS6Q9PPt0byfvCLDd9uIf17H9YdswgKXbkXlIFTEJ-8vcVO1JVlVfGQKMeyhywXwP51DbJ_RkvlKdNLQTIyGcjZE00VdpCf4bo&sig=AHIEtbQVitx5vkqnkPx5EfMVRRCx7WNp-w

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you go by that logic then why not include the bus fare out into the suburbs or the price of petrol from home to the car park in heuston or from the outback of Cork to the station.

I do, as a traveller I include all the costs and time.

For me the costs are by bus:

- €1.90 bus ticket into/out O'Connell St
- €18 bus ticket

By Train:
- €1.90 bus ticket into/out O'Connell St
- €1.60 Luas to Hueston
- €43 or more train ticket

I'm walking distance in Cork.

I also spend less time travelling in total by bus then by train. In the past I made sure to arrive a good 30 minutes before train departure. So I wouldn't miss it, plus the extra time for Luas.

With the bus, I leave much later, because if I miss it, it doesn't cost me anything to get the next bus, unlike with rail.

steamengine wrote: »

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport.

A straw mans argument, even if we didn't have buses, we would still have roads and would still have to subsidise their construction, etc.

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

Buses simply make good, cheap use of an existing resource.

Rails get built in addition to roads and have to justify themselves on that basis.

It also ignores the billions in road tax, VRT, car VAT, fuel duty, etc. brought in by roads.

Hilly Bill

It doesnt cost you anything to get a later train if you havent got a reservation for the earlier one.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

A straw mans argument, even if we didn't have buses, we would still have roads and would still have to subsidise their construction, etc.

That's refreshing - roads are subsidised ??? - plus then on top of that, the externalities, not to mention the annual slaughter and serious injuries.

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

I never said it did and again you seem to have difficulty with the notion that both modes are normal to first world countries.

Buses simply make good, cheap use of an existing resource.

Yes indeed but cheapest doesn't mean best !!! Safety stats for rail are well ahead of road - touch wood of course. Not everybody wants to simulate sardines when they travel inter-city either. I personally avoid long distance buses as I find them claustrophobic.

Rails get built in addition to roads and have to justify themselves on that basis.

They have continuously over a period of nearly two hundred years. They weren't built for fun nor should they be readily discarded just because there is currently a deep recession.

It also ignores the billions in road tax, VRT, car VAT, fuel duty, etc. brought in by roads.

Indeed a cash cow if ever there was one - pity a lot of the money is then effectively cancelled out because of these 'straw man' externalities, as you deem them to be.

foggy_lad

@hilly bill It does cost extra if as you reccomend people buy online in advance! A later train will cost €10 extra while changing the date will mean you need to buy a new ticket!

Richard Logue

Not a single country in the world has rail, but no roads, it simply doesn't work that way.

That's a very strange argument, not one I've heard before to be honest.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

@hilly bill It does cost extra if as you reccomend people buy online in advance! A later train will cost €10 extra while changing the date will mean you need to buy a new ticket!

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

Which means you have to pay €79 return !!

The "slaughter on the roads" is an issue with car travel. But rail won't solve it, are you really suggesting we close down all roads and replace them with rail? !!

Anyway accidents on roads will be massively decreased over the next couple of decades as we move towards computer driven cars. In fact, self driven electric cars will likely have a massive effect on all public transport, both rail and bus, but that is a discussion that I will keep for a separate thread.

Tragedy

steamengine wrote: »

The old chestnut that rail is heavily subsidised ignores the greater massive annual external costs associated with road transport. Clearly a low profit margin, bus/coach ticket doesn't allow for these costs, so in effect the Intercity bus traveller is subsidised as well.

While the following report is complex - comparisons on the various charts are readily comprehendable, along with the total figures for each transport mode.

The total external costs for 2008 per Irish inhabitant are given in Table 19 - €839. Rail only accounts for €11 of that amount.

http://ecocalc-test.ecotransit.org/CE_Delft_4215_External_Costs_of_Transport_in_Europe_def.pdf

Strange that you glossed over Table 18(that attempts to quantify the external costs per 1,000km travelled to give a level playing field for comparisons).
I wonder why that might possibly be?

Is it because Bus/Coach is €36.6 per 1,000 km as compared to €23.4 for rail transport?

Why yes, I do think that's why you cherrypicked an utterly meaningless statistic and completely ignored the salient one

foggy_lad

I know that . Its why i mentioned NO RESERVATION ,which you get when buying online.

So which is it to be then? Should we buy online and pay more or buy in the boking office and pay more?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

So which is it to be then? Should we buy online and pay more or buy in the boking office and pay more?[/QUOTE

What?????

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Which means you have to pay €79 return !!

The "slaughter on the roads" is an issue with car travel. But rail won't solve it, are you really suggesting we close down all roads and replace them with rail? !!

Anyway accidents on roads will be massively decreased over the next couple of decades as we move towards computer driven cars. In fact, self driven electric cars will likely have a massive effect on all public transport, both rail and bus, but that is a discussion that I will keep for a separate thread.

I know what the fares are , the reply was to the €10 charge for getting an earlier train after booking online. If you have a day return ticket bought at the station on the day then you can travel on any service between your chosen destinations.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

we close down all roads and replace them with rail

if i had my way, never mind

end of the road

bk wrote: »

what I object to is that the train is very heavily subsidised.

so is the bus indirectly.

bk wrote: »

I'm paying for your preference to get up and walk around

so is he, its called taxes and a train fair

bk wrote: »

Now I have no objection to my tax money going to subsidise things I don't use my self, as long as there is a logical social or economic reason to do so.

which their is for rail, cramed into a rickity old bus might be fine for you which is fine but for me and others we expect higher standards when traveling long distances which the bus can't and will never meet.

bk wrote: »

I don't see any social or economic reason to continue to heavily subsidise intercity rail

it has more potential to be faster then the buss but, the government is deliberately making sure we'l stay stuck at the same stone age speeds, while improving the roads for their state cars, oh wait its helychopters these days isn't it?

bk wrote: »

when bus services are just as fast, offer a more comprehensive service (timetable) and require no subsidy.

not a good enough reason not to subsidise rail, busses are indirectly subsidised via road tax (and i'm sure more of our tax is going toards the roads as well) and from my experience the busses aren't just as fast, the only thing the bus has going for it is the cheep fairs and should you want to go to a speciffic place it will bring you there if its on its route, but if your not going to oconnell street (which in my case i never really) then the train is the best mode, should the railways close i'l be emigrating.

bk wrote: »

And no, being able to get up and walk around is not a justification. If you want to use the train, then you should be paying the full cost of it.

he does, its called taxes and a train fair as i mentioned earlier.

steamengine

Tragedy wrote: »

Strange that you glossed over Table 18(that attempts to quantify the external costs per 1,000km travelled to give a level playing field for comparisons).
I wonder why that might possibly be?

Is it because Bus/Coach is €36.6 per 1,000 km as compared to €23.4 for rail transport?

Why yes, I do think that's why you cherrypicked an utterly meaningless statistic and completely ignored the salient one

So you would pick Table 18 and discard Table 19 and you accuse me of cherrypicking ??? - It's disingenuous IMO to read a report and discard the bits that don't suit your side of the argument. I acknowledge the report in its entirety including all the tables and charts.

bk

end of the road I have a big problem with you calling the buses: "cramed into a rickity old bus"

You clearly have never ridden on any of the new bus services. It clearly shows me that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I dare you to take one of the direct buses to Galway. Every single bus on this route is either a brand new, shiny, 2012 or 2013 coach. Van Hools, one of the absolute premier coach manufactures that make the most solid coaches you can imagine. This is the company who make coaches that carry German tourists all across Europe on long distance trips, trust me they are incredibly comfortable.

These coaches are far more modern, far better put together, far quieter and smother ride and far more comfortable then any train I've ever used in Ireland.

I'm saying this as a person who regularly took the Mark 4's and 22k's for years.

Really, please give it a go, just try it once.

If you had asked me about coaches 3 years ago, I would have agreed with you, I had the same misinformed opinion of you, having never taken a modern coach service.

It was only when I took a bus trip to Galway about 2 years ago that my eyes were opened and I saw how excellent a modern coach service could be. Cheap, fast and very comfortable.

Tragedy

steamengine wrote: »

So you would pick Table 18 and discard Table 19 and you accuse me of cherrypicking ??? - It's disingenuous IMO to read a report and discard the bits that don't suit your side of the argument. I acknowledge the report in its entirety including all the tables and charts.

Yes I do. Table 19 is not measuring usage per capita or per X amount of distance traveled. Therefore, figures cannot be compared (which is what you tried to do).

I understand statistics, you quite obviously don't.

steamengine

Tragedy wrote: »

Yes I do. Table 19 is not measuring usage per capita or per X amount of distance traveled. Therefore, figures cannot be compared (which is what you tried to do).

Table 19 shows the total annual cost of the externalities for all modes of transport per head of population for that year. I was using it to demonstrate that while rail does receive a substantial annual subsidy , roads incur substantial annual costs also due to externalities. To say that figures in Table 19 cannot be compared is a tad ridiculous IMO. Tables 19/20 also indicate how safe rail is compared to road generally.

I understand statistics, you quite obviously don't.

Ok - On the basis of your second smart assumption - I'll leave it there then !!!

bk

bk wrote: »

end of the road I have a big problem with you calling the buses: "cramed into a rickity old bus"

You clearly have never ridden on any of the new bus services. It clearly shows me that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I dare you to take one of the direct buses to Galway. Every single bus on this route is either a brand new, shiny, 2012 or 2013 coach. Van Hools, one of the absolute premier coach manufactures that make the most solid coaches you can imagine. This is the company who make coaches that carry German tourists all across Europe on long distance trips, trust me they are incredibly comfortable.

These coaches are far more modern, far better put together, far quieter and smother ride and far more comfortable then any train I've ever used in Ireland.

I'm saying this as a person who regularly took the Mark 4's and 22k's for years.

Really, please give it a go, just try it once.

If you had asked me about coaches 3 years ago, I would have agreed with you, I had the same misinformed opinion of you, having never taken a modern coach service.

It was only when I took a bus trip to Galway about 2 years ago that my eyes were opened and I saw how excellent a modern coach service could be. Cheap, fast and very comfortable.

I'll keep out of the general bus vs rail discussion this time around. :pac:

I never liked most of the Bus Éireann fleet, the VCs, SPs and the like. However I was on an LE from Busaras to Newry and I have to admit it was quite nice. My biggest issue with most coaches is that I feel very claustrophobic but I didn't feel that in the LE, though I was upstairs in the front seat so maybe that had something to do with it.

I can't speak for the private operators as I've no experience with them.