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Engineers Ireland Report 2013

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭ lockon...


    Eh summary please


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭ Bards


    lockon... wrote: »
    Eh summary please

    As requested

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deteriorating-roads-get-d-grade-from-engineers-29093756.html

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0226/1224330520526.html

    But the actual report is much more interesting, if you have any interest in infrastructure it is well worth a read


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,070 ✭✭✭ Heroditas


    Grants for energy efficiency for industry were removed after 2012, not during 2011 (page9).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    lockon... wrote: »
    Eh summary please

    According to Colm McCarthy, the summary would be: we need the work.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colm-mccarthy-now-is-not-the-time-to-splash-out-on-building-29105460.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien



    Now is the prefect time, the economist in McCarthy should know this because now is the time when prices are at their lowest ebb.

    Maybe he should get outside the pale once in a while.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Maybe he should get outside the pale once in a while.
    I'd argue that he should see the deficit in infrastructure within the Pale, never mind having to leave it to notice!

    The absence of public transport infrastructure becoming of a city (and by far the most economically important city in the country) of a million or so souls (including metropolitan area) should be evidence enough.

    Or do you think Dublin's infrastructure is at the right level?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'd argue that he should see the deficit in infrastructure within the Pale, never mind having to leave it to notice!

    Having lived in Dublin for several years, I know it's a damn sight better than:
    a) the dubs think it is
    b) we have anywhere else in the country
    murphaph wrote: »
    The absence of public transport infrastructure becoming of a city (and by far the most economically important city in the country) of a million or so souls (including metropolitan area) should be evidence enough.

    Or do you think Dublin's infrastructure is at the right level?

    The public transport service in Dublin is not half as bad as people make it out to be and it's certainly not absent by any standards. It's relatively easy to get across Dublin, there are location dependent services to be sure - Luas, Dart - but the bus fleet is big enough to deal with the needs of Dublin.

    The biggest problem that public transport faces in Dublin isn't really the infrastructure, there's a bus lane on every major and many minor routes, but the willingness to use it correctly. That is not an engineering problem but a political one. there are too many busses that run every 15 mintes throughout the day, instead of at 5/10 minute intervals at peak and 20/25 minute later in the day.

    I'd put Dublin's water as a higher priority than public transport, there are too many areas where one has to have filter jugs and hard water tablets etc, as well as the problems with both public and private mains. Bear in mind that I grew up in Galway where we had boil notices roughly every two years until the crypto debacle. Perversely it was the best thing to happen as they put in procedures and equipment that have meant no boil notices since the end of that problem in 2007. It remains to be seen was the two prolong cold periods in the winters of 2010 & 2011 enough to make them fix their problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's relatively easy to get across Dublin
    :eek:
    hmmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm a dub but I live in Germany these days. I've got to say, getting across Berlin (a city much much larger than Dublin) is far easier than getting across Dublin ever was. I can pretty much work anywhere in the city and take a train there in a predictable and reasonable amount of time.

    It's not the same in Dublin. It really just isn't. Dublin has a mess of badly thought out "infrastructure" and a load of buses with a disjointed rail "network" (neither the heavy rail lines nor the light rail lines are actually connected, with the loooong planned Interconnector having never been built)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    murphaph wrote: »
    :eek:
    hmmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm a dub but I live in Germany these days. I've got to say, getting across Berlin (a city much much larger than Dublin) is far easier than getting across Dublin ever was. I can pretty much work anywhere in the city and take a train there in a predictable and reasonable amount of time.

    It's not the same in Dublin. It really just isn't. Dublin has a mess of badly thought out "infrastructure" and a load of buses with a disjointed rail "network" (neither the heavy rail lines nor the light rail lines are actually connected, with the loooong planned Interconnector having never been built)


    Because we have not invested to European norms, we can not expect PT to European norms, so Dublin is above the Irish norm. Dublin is relatively easy to get across form an Irish perspective, try getting across Galway sometime, you'll have an eye-opening experience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Because we have not invested to European norms, we can not expect PT to European norms, so Dublin is above the Irish norm. Dublin is relatively easy to get across form an Irish perspective, try getting across Galway sometime, you'll have an eye-opening experience.
    So you contend that Dublin's PT is acceptable, but Galway's is sub-standard?

    I'd contend that neither city has an acceptable standard of PT, but whatever.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The biggest problem that public transport faces in Dublin isn't really the infrastructure, there's a bus lane on every major and many minor routes, but the willingness to use it correctly. That is not an engineering problem but a political one.

    A bus lane on every street does not matter when the quality is lacking -- lack of traffic light priority, still many substandard bus stops, too many places where stops are too close, large gaps mainly at junctions but often larger gaps, often narrow and shared with taxis and cyclists.

    Largely this too is a political issue rather than an engineering one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭ varberg


    I agree with a lot of what the engineers have to say.The macarthy article doesnt make much sence to me.

    Anyone that thinks its easy to get around dublin using public transport has obviously never had to use it to do so. There is a huge need for a train,dart,luas call it what you will from the city centre to the airport for starters, also from dense population areas like lucan and blanch and even ucd. When you think about it, how much have we regressed from the 1800s with regard to transport?In dublin i believe the railway tracks are still in the phoenix park, theres a bridge in phibsboro just up from the church on the cabra side and if you look down you ll see disused railway tracks, just gathering weeds since the free state was formed i believe. We really need educated far sighted people in planning and i think the engineers are right to plan ahead. Now is the time to develop this area and increase infrastructure to modern levels that other european countries have.

    Now is the ideal time to undertake all this rather than playing catch up in a few years.In cork a light rail system would benefit the area greatly, develop the area where pairc ui chaoimh is and have a light rail going from there to the centre, ucc, glanmire..
    Limerick would benefit from light rail from ul through town and on to dooradoyle.Im not familiar with galway.Does light rail have to cost a fortune? could private companies not build and run it til they make a profit and after a period of time hand it over to the state, say 25 years?

    Rural areas need good roads and the bit of tar isnt providing any long term benefit.Surely a more pernament solution could be found like using the materials they use in scandinavian countries rather than the irish system that needs to be worked on every year or so as there are so many potholes. It would be expensive in the short term but it would mean less expense in the long term and less burst tyres from the state of irelands roads.

    Companies from abroad look at the length of time it takes to get from location a to b, the frequency of flights from airports to other countries and many more things into thoughts when considering a location for a factory or business. If an area like galway or tipperary or clare are to attract business they need a good train and road network and a quick amount of time to get to shannon or cork or dublin airport or to ports. In dublin, how many hours at work are lost by people getting stuck in traffic or waiting for a bus then two come along..There should be loads more infrastructure development going on if we are to improve our country and the economy and this is something we can be proactive on.

    It was lacking for years, i mean the english built up an excellent road and rail network in ireland then there was very little done for a hundred years or more until the 1990s things got going again up until a few years ago.We need to keep developing now and not go back to a time where other countries pass us out again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭ Bards


    varberg wrote: »
    I agree with a lot of what the engineers have to say.The macarthy article doesnt make much sence to me.

    Anyone that thinks its easy to get around dublin using public transport has obviously never had to use it to do so. There is a huge need for a train,dart,luas call it what you will from the city centre to the airport for starters, also from dense population areas like lucan and blanch and even ucd. When you think about it, how much have we regressed from the 1800s with regard to transport?In dublin i believe the railway tracks are still in the phoenix park, theres a bridge in phibsboro just up from the church on the cabra side and if you look down you ll see disused railway tracks, just gathering weeds since the free state was formed i believe. We really need educated far sighted people in planning and i think the engineers are right to plan ahead. Now is the time to develop this area and increase infrastructure to modern levels that other european countries have.

    Now is the ideal time to undertake all this rather than playing catch up in a few years.In cork a light rail system would benefit the area greatly, develop the area where pairc ui chaoimh is and have a light rail going from there to the centre, ucc, glanmire..
    Limerick would benefit from light rail from ul through town and on to dooradoyle.Im not familiar with galway.Does light rail have to cost a fortune? could private companies not build and run it til they make a profit and after a period of time hand it over to the state, say 25 years?

    Rural areas need good roads and the bit of tar isnt providing any long term benefit.Surely a more pernament solution could be found like using the materials they use in scandinavian countries rather than the irish system that needs to be worked on every year or so as there are so many potholes. It would be expensive in the short term but it would mean less expense in the long term and less burst tyres from the state of irelands roads.

    Companies from abroad look at the length of time it takes to get from location a to b, the frequency of flights from airports to other countries and many more things into thoughts when considering a location for a factory or business. If an area like galway or tipperary or clare are to attract business they need a good train and road network and a quick amount of time to get to shannon or cork or dublin airport or to ports. In dublin, how many hours at work are lost by people getting stuck in traffic or waiting for a bus then two come along..There should be loads more infrastructure development going on if we are to improve our country and the economy and this is something we can be proactive on.

    It was lacking for years, i mean the english built up an excellent road and rail network in ireland then there was very little done for a hundred years or more until the 1990s things got going again up until a few years ago.We need to keep developing now and not go back to a time where other countries pass us out again.

    It's also more cost effective to build infrastructure during a downturn in the economic cycle (Land Prices, Cost of Labour) than during a boom/peak of the economic cycle as has happened in the past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    varberg wrote: »
    Rural areas need good roads and the bit of tar isnt providing any long term benefit.Surely a more pernament solution could be found like using the materials they use in scandinavian countries rather than the irish system that needs to be worked on every year or so as there are so many potholes.
    Ireland (and Britain and other places) has a bigger problem with potholes than Scandinavia or Canada etc. because in winter in those places it gets cold fast and stays cold until spring. In Ireland we have freeze-thaw all winter as the temperature hovers between + and -. Freeze thaw is the main culprit in potholes as water gets in to the little cracks, freezes, expands and breaks the road open and then thaws again during the day and gets an little deeper and freezes again at night and on and on...

    The roads in Berlin open up all over the place if we get a mild winter. If we get a very harsh one, they will be much better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    varberg wrote: »
    Anyone that thinks its easy to get around dublin using public transport has obviously never had to use it to do so.

    It's a very different perspective and to be frank dubs have too high expectoration - a free taxi service is what they expect from PT.

    I used PT in Dublin for 7 years across multiple northside routes, I have no problem saying a lot of dubs are very unrealistic with their expectations of what PT can do in a city with as many choke points as Dublin has - which happen to be the points where the PT has to concentrate itsellf on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's a very different perspective and to be frank dubs have too high expectoration - a free taxi service is what they expect from PT.

    I used PT in Dublin for 7 years across multiple northside routes, I have no problem saying a lot of dubs are very unrealistic with their expectations of what PT can do in a city with as many choke points as Dublin has - which happen to be the points where the PT has to concentrate itsellf on.
    Erm, the infrastructural investment would be to alleviate these choke points or bypass them completely (by going underground, as other cities have been doing since 1863).


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    murphaph wrote: »
    Erm, the infrastructural investment would be to alleviate these choke points or bypass them completely (by going underground, as other cities have been doing since 1863).

    Going underground in Dublin will be at best problematic and at worst Carickmines Castle II. It was bad enough tunnelling under fairview, just imagine what it will do to the ancient (& protected) structures in the center of Dublin. That in itself is enough to give me pause, and I'm in agreement that DU is required.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    murphaph wrote: »
    Erm, the infrastructural investment would be to alleviate these choke points or bypass them completely (by going underground, as other cities have been doing since 1863).

    Agreed that DU is part of the solution, but like other cities around the same size and make up as Dublin, we also need to look at how streets are used -- ie more bus only streets, looking at cyclist only streets, more pedistrain streets etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    Agreed that DU is part of the solution, but like other cities around the same size and make up as Dublin, we also need to look at how streets are used -- ie more bus only streets, looking at cyclist only streets, more pedistrain streets etc.

    There are streets in Dublin that buses simply shouldn't be brought down, e.g. the route of the 15 northbound through the city center, the buses struggle badly to get through the area around suffolk st. and it causes long delays.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    Engineers Ireland uses the rhetoric of sustainable transport etc in its publications, but then EI members seem willing to work with and for Local Authorities in a very different manner.

    Perhaps that's where politics rather than engineering holds sway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Engineers Ireland uses the rhetoric of sustainable transport etc in its publications, but then EI members seem willing to work with and for Local Authorities in a very different manner.

    Perhaps that's where politics rather than engineering holds sway.

    Or maybe it's just that their meaning of sustainable isn't the same as what some people believe it should be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Or maybe it's just that their meaning of sustainable isn't the same as what some people believe it should be.




    They call it One Planet Living: http://www.engineersireland.ie/conference/ppt/west/Justin_Tuohy.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    They support the Atlintic Roads Corridor & Galway bypass, despite cries that it's "unsustainable", so they definitely have a different version of sustainable to certain....vested interests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    monument wrote: »
    Agreed that DU is part of the solution, but like other cities around the same size and make up as Dublin, we also need to look at how streets are used -- ie more bus only streets, looking at cyclist only streets, more pedistrain streets etc.
    Indeed we do need to give more quality priority to the bus (and bike), which will likely always or for many decades yet make up the bulk of PT in Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    antoobrien wrote: »
    There are streets in Dublin that buses simply shouldn't be brought down, e.g. the route of the 15 northbound through the city center, the buses struggle badly to get through the area around suffolk st. and it causes long delays.
    Indeed!

    Buses have no business crawling into the city centre in the first place. They have to because we have no alternative infrastructure in place.

    If Dublin had gotten just a bit of what it was supposed to get (say Interconnector and Metro from Airport/Swords to Stephen's Green) many of those buses would operate as feeders into the rail network, as they do elsewhere.

    You'd have buses bringing people from Lucan village not to the city but to Adamstown and a new Lucan North (Coldblows) station to allow them to continue their journey by train to the city centre. Same on the Northside...feeder buses from Finglas/Glasnevin over to Metro North and continue that way, or down to a DART station at Cross Guns Bridge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    murphaph wrote: »
    Indeed!

    Buses have no business crawling into the city centre in the first place. They have to because we have no alternative infrastructure in place.

    No, it's down to ill-conceived populist routing, not a lack of alternatives. The buses that use Suffolk street don't need to use it, but the population demands that they can go from Dame st & College Green instead of fleet St & Westmoreland st - a very short walk away.

    A small bit of common sense would remove a lot of the problems and make bus routes in Dublin a lot more efficient.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    They support the Atlintic Roads Corridor & Galway bypass, despite cries that it's "unsustainable", so they definitely have a different version of sustainable to certain....vested interests.




    Definition of VESTED INTEREST
    a special concern or stake in maintaining or influencing a condition, arrangement, or action especially for selfish ends

    one having a vested interest in something; specifically: a group enjoying benefits from an existing economic or political privilege.

    Examples of VESTED INTEREST: "She has a vested interest in seeing the business sold, as she'll make a profit from the sale."

    Whose vested interest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Definition of VESTED INTEREST
    a special concern or stake in maintaining or influencing a condition, arrangement, or action especially for selfish ends

    Whose vested interest?

    Sounds about right yes. I believe the correct acronym for one of the vested interest's is NIMBY.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    Not In My Bog, Yo!

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-9V5atbOmPIXULyOHlFkYG-chjWJmOREwulgnIO5YJ1XM5v7k


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    Well, today is a good time to bring this one up.

    Dublin airport was closed for a while as a result of an accident. The cross wind runway was opened, and operations resumed.

    A few weeks ago, the main runway was closed for 7 hours to allow for a large pothole to be repaired, and numerous comments were made that the main runway was in poor condition, and would need significant repair before long.

    There are airlines that have considered operating into Dublin, but their ability to do so is compromised by the length of the main runway, which is too short to allow fully loaded operation of larger aircraft such as a 747 freighter, and similar aircraft.

    The numbers traveling through Dublin have dropped in recent years, due to the recession, but they are not that far below the point where to avoid congestion and delays to flights, a second runway will be needed.

    It seems to me that some means of funding the construction of that runway needs to be found now, in order to ensure that the future growth of trade with the Far East and other parts of the world is not compromised, and to ensure that the existing runway can be refurbished without putting the operation of the airport at risk, the wind strengths at Dublin are sufficiently strong that there would be problems for smaller aircraft if the only runway available is the cross wind runway.

    A new runway will not be built in 5 minutes, there is a huge workload of preparation, and ancillary services that have to be in place before the actual strip is laid.

    Constructing it now, before the existing runway becomes unserviceable looks to me like a very good idea, as once the new runway is built, there will then be a period of time when there will still only be one runway that is facing the prevailing wind, as the existing runway will require to be significantly refurbished in order to enable its continued use.

    So, given that the airport is a fundamental part of the future communication and travel requirements for the entire island, and there is no viable alternative to Dublin, I have to say that it looks to me as if the second runway needs to be brought forward before it becomes critical and has to be pushed through as a panic measure to avoid disruption.

    There will be plenty of people that will rise up in protest at this thought, but we have to look at the long term implications for the Irish Economy as a whole, and a working, reliable viable international airport that can cater for fully loaded flights that are carrying freight AND passengers to and from all parts is essential to the long term success and growth of the Irish Economy.

    This is a big project, and it needs state and EU funding, because it's bigger than facilitating Ryanair and Aer Lingus to operate more flights to the sun, and bigger than the ability of DAA to run the airport profitably, this is about enabling imports and exports from places like the countries of Southern Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, China, Japan, and other parts of the Far East. bringing and taking products and visitors that will be an essential part of the economic recovery that has to happen for Ireland to again become a vibrant economy.

    There can be little doubt that DAA have made some serious mistakes, but given the number of political appointees to that organisation, that's hardly surprising. We cannot afford to allow the mistakes of the past years to hinder and perhaps even block the future development of the entire country,

    A project of this nature would provide much needed employment in a sector that's suffered badly, and ensure that the ongoing operation of the airport would not be compromised, as well as preparing it for the future traffic that will happen as things change over the coming years.

    The biggest problem will be persuading the relevant people at EU level that this is a project that needs to happen sooner rather than later.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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