riello burner in grant boiler replace or fix?

rustyjack

My 10 year old grant boiler with riello burner has not given me any trouble until this week.
Now it is running without firing - looking at fault finding diagram -
could be photocell, solenoid (hopefully)
or motor or control box (hopefully not).

I have been told that if it is the motor or control box, that i may be better off getting a new burner for 280 rather than replacing a part costing 80-90 euros. The labour cost is the same in both cases - i wont do it myself.

can i ask peoples advice on this? Would i better to replace the burner or go ahead with replacing the control box/motor?

thanks,
rusty

crock!

Give more info on what happens after you press reset button. It maybe minor

rustyjack

thanks for reply.
cant answer your question cos i never pressed reset!!!
I have turned it on a couple of times and it fires fine and produces heat for the rads but it only lasts a few minutes before it stops firing and just runs.

The question i am grappling with is whether to replace the burner or the control box/motor (if that is what causing the problem). do riello burners last 15-20 years or more?

JohnnieK

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks for reply.
cant answer your question cos i never pressed reset!!!
I have turned it on a couple of times and it fires fine and produces heat for the rads but it only lasts a few minutes before it stops firing and just runs.

The question i am grappling with is whether to replace the burner or the control box/motor (if that is what causing the problem). do riello burners last 15-20 years or more?

If it's the motor or control box then it would not fire at all, I can only imagine it's something minor. Get a competent or OFTEC engineer out and he should be able to fix it.

Robbie.G

Sounds like the photocell.Where are you located because there are plenty of good boiler men here someone might be able to sort you

sullzz

I'd be looking towards the photocell too , I wouldn't go replacing the whole burner just yet , burners are almost always repairable

dzer2

If its firing and cutting out I would take out the photocell and clean it.

Billy Bunting

If you get a new burner you will need to get someone to set it all up for you, imho you would do better to get an oftec engineer out to look at it, sound a simple fix on a boiler that needs a service.

rustyjack

thanks everyone for your replies.
got a boiler technician out and he says it is the control box but has not ruled out the motor. He changed the solenoid and photocell and still did not fire.
He said the oil pump is working.

as it is 10 years old, he suggests to change the burner (300euros) versus changing the control box/motor (100euros) as it is more likely to have future problems as it is an old burner. All the major parts are 100 euros (oil pump, motor, control box) and cost of replacing them aswell.
I can see his point.. if i get 10 years out of the new burner like the old one, i will be doing well.

any thoughts?

thanks,

jimf

as already advised try the photocell first maybe fuel starvation as well

did your boiler tech check the photocell did he not have a new control box to confirm

motors dont usually fail in run mode

rustyjack

thanks jim.
He didnt have control box or motor with him to replace and check. He said he cant check the motor without replacing as there is no way to connect to the white wire (for 50V check)

He changed photocell and solenoid but no luck.

When it was running but wasnt firing, he turned off the oil at the tank and checked the pressure at the oil inlet to the burner but it stayed low... so he said that pump was not being activated and oil was not being sucked into the burner..

He said the oil pump was working so says it has to be the motor or most likely the control box which he can bring on monday to swap.

It is strange that the control box or motor would work when cold and then stop...

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks jim.
He didnt have control box or motor with him to replace and check. He said he cant check the motor without replacing as there is no way to connect to the white wire (for 50V check)

He changed photocell and solenoid but no luck.

When it was running but wasnt firing, he turned off the oil at the tank and checked the pressure at the oil inlet to the burner but it stayed low... so he said that pump was not being activated and oil was not being sucked into the burner..

He said the oil pump was working so says it has to be the motor or most likely the control box which he can bring on monday to swap.

It is strange that the control box or motor would work when cold and then stop...

Hmmmm......

jimf

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks jim.
He didnt have control box or motor with him to replace and check. He said he cant check the motor without replacing as there is no way to connect to the white wire (for 50V check)

He changed photocell and solenoid but no luck.

When it was running but wasnt firing, he turned off the oil at the tank and checked the pressure at the oil inlet to the burner but it stayed low... so he said that pump was not being activated and oil was not being sucked into the burner..

He said the oil pump was working so says it has to be the motor or most likely the control box which he can bring on monday to swap.

It is strange that the control box or motor would work when cold and then stop...

im sorry a lot of your statements on here dont inspire confidence in your service eng and i would say thats why shanes reply was hmmm you need to get somebody who knows oil burners im afraid where are you based ???

rustyjack

based in cork city by the airport.

Should he have been able to check the motor at the white wire?

If the burner works for a couple of minutes when first started from cold and then stops firing (but continues to run) - does this 100% eliminate the control box and the motor?

If so, i will get someone else out.

thanks a lot,
rusty

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

based in cork city by the airport.

Should he have been able to check the motor at the white wire?

If the burner works for a couple of minutes when first started from cold and then stops firing (but continues to run) - does this 100% eliminate the control box and the motor?

If so, i will get someone else out.

thanks a lot,
rusty

There are only 2 parts of a burner that requires specialist equipment to test but these can be eliminated by simple elimination testing.
It is not your motor at fault....

rustyjack

thanks shane.

So i guess you are saying it is the photocell or the control box?
I saw him change the solenoid but not change the photocell as i was away from the burner taking a call.

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks shane.

So i guess you are saying it is the photocell or the control box?
I saw him change the solenoid but not change the photocell as i was away from the burner taking a call.

I am not saying that at all as I not standing in front of the burner listening to the sequences of ignition. I am not testing the resistance of the solenoid coil. I am not testing to see if the solenoid valve has opened. I am not testing the pump pressure/vacuum. I am not testing lots of things but you hopefully get the picture.
Any decent OFTEC engineer should be able to narrow down the fault & get you going.
BTW all burners white cable can be tested but as I said in your case, it's not the motor.

rustyjack

thanks shane.
I get the picture

thanks everyone for their help.

shane0007

<snip>

Completely ignore that absolutely dangerous & nonsense advice!
Turning off the oil will not stop the burner from firing with a flame outside of the combustion chamber. There will be sufficient fuel within the fuel pump & oil line for a flame to be established for a considerable time length.

Dzer, do not give advice that could potentially mame or injure a member of the public. It is irresponsible & stupid. I am a trained & certified boiler engineer & I would not even do what you have suggested. I value myself & I also value others not to do something as stupid as that.

Mods: Would it be possible to remove that post, please?

rustyjack

thanks very much dzer and shane.

i have bled the line previously and i know oil is coming to the burner but i will do so again.
i will check the photocell myself just in case techhie got that wrong.
From one of shane's previous posts on a different thread, i understand if i disconnect the photocell from the control box and the burner enters lock out, the photocell is the problem.

after that, i think i will leave it to the experts.

TPM

As shane said trying to run a burner out of a boiler is dangerous.

for clarification dzer mentions a 5mm black cable, this is correct of some burners and the RDB burner fitted to later Grant boilers, but at 10yrs old I would think your Grant is fitted with a G3 burner in which the photo cell is fitted directly to the control box,

All the service techs I know carry spare and/or test parts and would be able to identify the problem in one visit and in most cases be able to rectify the problem in that visit too.

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

From one of shane's previous posts on a different thread, i understand if i disconnect the photocell from the control box and the burner enters lock out, the photocell is the problem.

That advice in that post was for a different symptom & will not work in a lock out situation. That was for when the burner is continuously running without firing & without going to lock out.

TBH, the best thing is to call in a decent OFTEC engineer.
www.oftec.org
Ask the questions over the phone before engaging them.

jimf

<snip>

dzer2 unless riello have invented some hybrid burner which i have never seen the burner you describe does not exist you describe the photocell of an rdb yet you talk about an air damper their is no air damper on a rdb burner this is fitted to the riello 40 series ????????

rustyjack

thanks shane,

that is exactly what is happening with my burner as my burner is not going to lockout. It is running continuosly without firing. The only time it fires and heats up the rads is if the burner is cold and has been started for the first time in a few hours. It fires for a few minutes and then it stops but is still runs - it does not enter lockout.

In the future will get oftec engineer but i havent paid my current techie yet so dont want to pay double. If it is the photocell, i hope i can find out tomorrow.

thanks for your and everyones help.

shane0007

Sorry I thought it was locking out. My mistake.

Ok, so remove photocell. If it goes to lock out, then it is definitely the photocell.
If it still runs continuously, check the resistance of the solenoid coil for circa 100ohms. If not, replace solenoid coil.
If it still runs continuously, check white wire for 50v. If not, replace motor.
If 50v is present, replace control box.

rustyjack

thanks very much shane and everyone for your help.

shane0007

When I say remove the photocell, I mean unplug the wiring for it from the control box if it is an RDB burner or remove control box & physically remove the photocell if it is a G series burner.

Robbie.G

shane0007 wrote: »

When I say remove the photocell, I mean unplug the wiring for it from the control box if it is an RDB burner or remove control box & physically remove the photocell if it is a G series burner.

By what the op says 10 year old boiler I would guess that its a G3 so I doubt it will be removed let his "tech" do it if any tech doesn't carry a spare control box and photocell for a G series I don't know what

shane0007

Robbie.G wrote: »

By what the op says 10 year old boiler I would guess that its a G3 so I doubt it will be removed let his "tech" do it if any tech doesn't carry a spare control box and photocell for a G series I don't know what

RDB's are around longer than 10 years.

rustyjack

thanks everyone. it is an rdb burner.

Robbie.G

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks everyone. it is an rdb burner.

That's grand then it's a very easy test do just as Shane said then you'll find out yourself

Billy Bunting

<snip>
Post reported to moderator.

KoolKid

Unsuitable posts deleted.
Thanks all.

rustyjack

thanks everyone. It was the photocell..will get one and install tomorrow.

i think my tech is a plumber with little understanding of the electrical side of things. he was recommended to me by my plumber.

if someone could give me a recommendation of a good oil technician in cork city area, i would very much appreciate it.

thanks all,
rusty

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks everyone. It was the photocell..will get one and install tomorrow.

i think my tech is a plumber with little understanding of the electrical side of things. he was recommended to me by my plumber.

if someone could give me a recommendation of a good oil technician in cork city area, i would very much appreciate it.

thanks all,
rusty

He would have looked a right twat standing there after replacing the motor & control box with the boiler still running without firing!

agusta

rustyjack wrote: »

thanks everyone for your replies.
got a boiler technician out and he says it is the control box but has not ruled out the motor. He changed the solenoid and photocell and still did not fire.
He said the oil pump is working.

as it is 10 years old, he suggests to change the burner (300euros) versus changing the control box/motor (100euros) as it is more likely to have future problems as it is an old burner. All the major parts are 100 euros (oil pump, motor, control box) and cost of replacing them aswell.
I can see his point.. if i get 10 years out of the new burner like the old one, i will be doing well.

any thoughts?

thanks,

The boiler tech did change the photocell!!!,Does this mean the new photocell that was fitted is faulty?

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

I saw him change the solenoid but not change the photocell as i was away from the burner taking a call.

Perhaps he changed it & the new one was faulty or indeed he did not have a new one & only said he changed it, guessing it was not the photocell.
It seems odd a service person does not carry all the spares for oil burners. It is not like gas where there are thousands of varying makes & models all taking different parts.
For that symptom, it is very easy to narrow down the cause.

rustyjack

spoke to him today..looks like he just cleaned it and did not replace it!!!
oh well....

we live and learn!!
Rusty

shane0007

rustyjack wrote: »

spoke to him today..looks like he just cleaned it and did not replace it!!!
oh well....

we live and learn!!
Rusty

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the oil industry was regulated with accountability?
Thanks for the update. It means a lot to get feedback.

Irish Steve

shane0007 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the oil industry was regulated with accountability?
Thanks for the update. It means a lot to get feedback.

What would be even better would be if all of the "dangerous" industries were properly regulated in a way that didn't discourage or prevent people from registering in the first place, which means a much more rigorous and accountable inspection system.

Yes, there needs to be a certain entry level, but after that, performance is all, and if a customer felt for any reason a job wasn't done correctly, and could get an inspector out to review what had been done, and that then put the contractor at risk of being either suspended or removed, a lot of the bad work practises that have been seen over the last few years would disappear very rapidly.

In this case, the first person looking at that burner should have got at least a yellow card, to take a football analagy.

The concept of threatening a householder with massive fines or worse for doing the work or using an unregistered contractor is not the answer, the better solution is to make it possible for the householder to get an effective redress if it is found that the work is substandard, as long as there is some form of sanction against vexatious complaints.

The same scenario should be available to a registered contractor, if a REC goes to a job, and finds substandard work, the REC should be able to report that work, which would be inspected, and if indeed it is substandard, the regulatory body should then be able to find out who did the work, and take appropriate action. The REC that finds the bad work may not even know who did the previous work.

I'm not talking about suspending or removing someone for forgetting to fit a piece of earth sleeving in a socket, or (as this is really the plumbing section) not correctly balancing a heating system, but there are cases where some failures do deserve sanction. It may well be that the sanction would be a partial refund to the houseowner for the faulty work, that's not my call, but it has to be better than the shambles that's there now.

The plumber is probably in the worst position of the lot, in that in some cases, plumbing can then involve electrics, especially on complex heating systems, and also involve gas, or oil, and if you have to be REC, RGI and whatever the oil industry standard is now, and then when it comes LPG as well, the cost of being registered and complying, and all the rest of it is going to be astronomic. and the householder doesn't understand when they get a bill of €50 for fitting a tap washer, or a sink waste O ring, the problem being that the cost of being compliant is becoming obscene for many trades, and it has to be recovered somehow.

I'm not going to hold my breath, I suspect it will get worse before it gets better, some of the suggestions being made for the future are just crazy, and more worryingly, unenforceable. That's not the way to go.

shane0007

Irish Steve wrote: »

What would ......

I think I agree. I dunno, you lost me at What......!
Steve, I know you mean well but you should try reading back over your posts, just to see if you could finish reading one.
They don't have to be essays to make your point. And I hate having my posts pushed onto the next page!

TPM

shane0007 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the oil industry was regulated with accountability?

I totally agree, the way it is at the moment with Oftec not really carrying any weight in this country and everything basically being left to the integrity of the person carrying out the work. but lets not get into that one here

shane0007 wrote: »

Thanks for the update. It means a lot to get feedback.

yea its always great to see how it ends up and to finish up the thread, I hate reading through threads that just stop and you never know if any of the advice helped or not

rustyjack

Burner working fine now - thanks everyone for your interest and for all your help.
Rusty