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Access to my own apartment?

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13

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    #62
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    If it were a case that the front door lock was broken to the point of being unusable then the landlord would have to repair/replace it.


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    #63
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    In this random case, surely the tenant could replace the lock and give the landlord a key to the new lock? And arrange for the price of lock and work to be taken off the rent?


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    #64
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Yes i suspect that is what most people would do. Although in fairness most landlords would be quick to replace a broken front door lock either way.


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    #65
    Dandelion6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭Dandelion6


    I'm pretty sure I recall my management company saying that they sought legal advice as to whether they could do this and were told that they couldn't.

    What they could (and did) do was reprogramme the devices that give access to residents' parking, and any units where the service charge was in arrears lost their access until they paid up. Apparently this did have some effect.


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    #66
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    No sign of Crusoe, the original poster (12 posts in total on site) for a while. Maybe s/he sorted this out already without our, er, help?


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    #67
    j2606
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭j2606


    I'll be in a similar situation to the OP soon enough. Management company introducing a fob and won't be issuing them to people behind on charges, of which I am one. Many people here are presuming the landlord won't pay rather than can't pay, I'm in a position where I will be locked out of my home because I can't pay. I'm unemployed and simply can't even offer €10 a week, a solution is needed when a service provider has more power to lock you out of your home than a bank does.


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    #68
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    j2606 wrote: »
    I'll be in a similar situation to the OP soon enough. Management company introducing a fob and won't be issuing them to people behind on charges, of which I am one. Many people here are presuming the landlord won't pay rather than can't pay, I'm in a position where I will be locked out of my home because I can't pay. I'm unemployed and simply can't even offer €10 a week, a solution is needed when a service provider has more power to lock you out of your home than a bank does.

    Have you been to Threshold and Citizens' Advice?


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    #69
    j2606
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭j2606


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    Have you been to Threshold and Citizens' Advice?

    I looked at the threshold site but I'm not a tenant, I'm also not nearly homeless. The wife works, we pay the mortgage and esb but literally next to nothing left after that.


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    #70
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Have you sat down with the management comapny and explained your situation to them?


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    #71
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,684 ✭✭✭jd


    j2606 wrote: »
    I looked at the threshold site but I'm not a tenant, I'm also not nearly homeless. The wife works, we pay the mortgage and esb but literally next to nothing left after that.
    Could you talk to the mortgage company? Go interest only for a while to clear the MC arrears?


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    #72
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Both Threshold and Citizens' Advice can help you negotiate, as can Mabs.

    Jesus, what a country.


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    #73
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Threshold has nothing to do with homeowners; its purely for tenants.


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    #74
    j2606
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭j2606


    djimi wrote: »
    Have you sat down with the management comapny and explained your situation to them?

    Not yet, I received a letter from them on Friday and replied to it yesterday, pretty much told them I'm in no position at present to pay anything.


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    #75
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    j2606 wrote: »
    Not yet, I received a letter from them on Friday and replied to it yesterday, pretty much told them I'm in no position at present to pay anything.

    Youll need to sit down with them and try to work something out. These measures are most likely being brought in to combat those who wont pay their management fees; its a different story when you physically cannot afford to pay.


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    #76
    j2606
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭j2606


    jd wrote: »
    Could you talk to the mortgage company? Go interest only for a while to clear the MC arrears?

    Bank will only discuss options like that if we fall into arrears.


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    #77
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    But what about the legality? If I'm a landlord and my tenant can't pay, I don't have the right to change the locks - I have to go to law to force eviction, if that's what I want. How is this different for management companies?


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    #78
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    j2606 wrote: »
    I'll be in a similar situation to the OP soon enough. Management company introducing a fob
    Check eBay for the key fob, and clone one of your neighbours key fob?


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    #79
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    But what about the legality? If I'm a landlord and my tenant can't pay, I don't have the right to change the locks - I have to go to law to force eviction, if that's what I want. How is this different for management companies?

    Because the management company is not in a positiont to evict anyone? But they are however in a position to withdraw the services that their leaseholders are supposed to be paying for. If you dont pay your ESB bill your power will be cut off. If you dont pay your management fees then you risk losing services which they pay for (including parking, keyfob access etc).

    Im not necessarily saying I agree with such strong measures as locking someone out of the building, and I think that that particular course of action could be a potential legal minefield (much more so than clamping cars might be), but I can understand where management companies are coming from.


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    #80
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    the_syco wrote: »
    Check eBay for the key fob, and clone one of your neighbours key fob?

    There's probably an encrypted key. Where would you even get the hardware to programme one?


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    #81
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    djimi wrote: »
    Because the management company is not in a positiont to evict anyone? But they are however in a position to withdraw the services that their leaseholders are supposed to be paying for. If you dont pay your ESB bill your power will be cut off. If you dont pay your management fees then you risk losing services which they pay for (including parking, keyfob access etc).

    Im not necessarily saying I agree with such strong measures as locking someone out of the building, and I think that that particular course of action could be a potential legal minefield (much more so than clamping cars might be), but I can understand where management companies are coming from.

    Yes, yes, but... surely the way into your own home is analogous to a right-of-way? I'd be inclined to toddle off and talk to a good solicitor about this. Not to mention "talk to Joe".


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    #82
    Mikros
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Mikros


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    Yes, yes, but... surely the way into your own home is analogous to a right-of-way? I'd be inclined to toddle off and talk to a good solicitor about this. Not to mention "talk to Joe".

    On the face of it I would tend to agree. I'm sure the management company can withdraw services in the event of non payment of fees but it seems unlikely that could extend to removing your right of access to your apartment/home, whether intentionally or as a consequence of removing a service (e.g. key fobs). Especially when (apparently) acting unilaterally.

    It really would depend on the exact wording in the leasehold. I have a lot of sympathy for what it takes to chase up management fees but I hope the MC have got good legal advice on the issue before going ahead with it. They could be leaving themselves open to damages if they are acting beyond their power.


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    #83
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    Yes, yes, but... surely the way into your own home is analogous to a right-of-way? I'd be inclined to toddle off and talk to a good solicitor about this. Not to mention "talk to Joe".

    You need to read your lease carefully. It will outline all the rights and access you are entitled to and what the management company is required to do.

    However, all of the above is totally conditional on you paying your service fee. This will be also in the lease. If a person was to go to a solicitor they would have a difficult time explaining that they signed a legally binding contract but have now decided that instead its better to get all services for free and expect neighbours or 'fresh air' to pay for all services and maintenance. Basically just pick and choose the bits of the contract that benefit them.

    As a company Director if someone paid their service fee on time then I'd deliver the fob or key on a silver plate direct to their door with an after eight mint. My patience starts to diminish when people decide to enjoy all the services but contribute zero.

    The question should be how can people not pay their service and not be landed with even more severe and quicker methods to ensure swift payment.


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    #84
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,684 ✭✭✭jd


    j2606 wrote: »
    Bank will only discuss options like that if we fall into arrears.
    Or if the OMC remove your cover from the Block Insurance policy..you need to talk to the OMC


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    #85
    Mikros
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Mikros


    Lantus wrote: »
    You need to read your lease carefully. It will outline all the rights and access you are entitled to and what the management company is required to do.

    However, all of the above is totally conditional on you paying your service fee. This will be also in the lease. If a person was to go to a solicitor they would have a difficult time explaining that they signed a legally binding contract but have now decided that instead its better to get all services for free and expect neighbours or 'fresh air' to pay for all services and maintenance. Basically just pick and choose the bits of the contract that benefit them.

    I agree with you for the most part, but the Management Company is equally bound by the lease agreement - they cannot act to deprive someone access to their home unless the lease conditions explicitly allow them to do so. Withdrawing a service that has the foreseeable effect of depriving a person their right of access would not be seen as an acceptable workaround. The Management Company has recourse to the courts to seek unpaid fees and to enforce the contract - they can't just make it up as they go along.

    Without knowing the exact lease there is not much point speculating further.


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    #86
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    It's a tough one when someone has fallen on hard times and can't pay their fees, you have my sympathy j6206.

    But as a fee payer in my development, I simply can't subsidise my neighbours. I would expect my MC to act in the interest of the development and take action to collect monies outstanding.

    Fees increase for everyone if there's a high level of non payment. The bottom line is that as part of the purchase you got a long term lease on the property on the condition that you pay your fees, the MC is entitled to act if you're not complying with your commitments. Payment plans aren't much help if the money isn't in the account to meet the insurance payment, or the ESB bills or the refuse bills. The MC budget is based on everyone paying up.

    Management Companies debt collection practices vary but I know of one case where the owners got notice that the Sheriff had been called in - which funnily enough led to fees being paid. Other options include getting a judgement mortgage against the property, removal of insurance/access/parking rights etc

    Management companies can't work without funds, some people can't or won't pay their fees...it just goes round in circles. But at the end of the day the law is not on the owner's side if they are failing to live up to their contractual responsibilities.

    j6206 you need to go through your contract and consider seeking legal advice. Consider also MABs who may help re-organise your finances to the point where you can pay some of your fees.


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    #87
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Mikros wrote: »
    I agree with you for the most part, but the Management Company is equally bound by the lease agreement - they cannot act to deprive someone access to their home unless the lease conditions explicitly allow them to do so. Withdrawing a service that has the foreseeable effect of depriving a person their right of access would not be seen as an acceptable workaround. The Management Company has recourse to the courts to seek unpaid fees and to enforce the contract - they can't just make it up as they go along.

    Without knowing the exact lease there is not much point speculating further.

    Well as others have said I am sypmathetic as to anyone who cannot pay as some fee's are very high due to nature of the development.

    In terms of the above comment assuming the lease is laid out as I indicated (and you will find that most are very standard in this regard.) Then it is the member that breaks the contract by not paying the service fee firstly. The OMC can then respond by using the lease to restrict service provision.

    on the one hand its quite harsh but avoiding court is better for everyone as it avoids significant work and costs being added to the service fee.

    In terms of insurance you cannot normally 'remove' a unit from the insurance as they are all connected. However you can refuse to process any claim or issue a cert until all fees and arrears have been addressed. Again, if members get all the services for free then where is the incentive to even bother paying?


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    #88
    crusoe
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭crusoe


    They still didn't fix our access. I've talked to Treshold. I've done what they adviced me, I wrote a letter to both my landlord and the management company asking them to fix my "access", or I consider to go to PRTB... weeks ago now, etc... they dont even answer me....and still didnt fix the access.

    My "landlord"'s solution is he give us an other tenant's entryphone number so we can ask them to let us in.
    But if i come late i have to text him in advance what time I come home like..now the guy knows what time I work and what time i come home i text him every week.... to make sure he's awake and lets me in...

    They said he gets paid for this..he's like a doorman now ...so he lets people in who live their aparments... they own like 10-15 apartmants in the building all have no working key to the maindoor.

    We decided to move, I told my landlord since he doesn't pay to the management company the service fees we also dont trust him that he'd give back our deposit.

    So we simply won't pay and we move out when we find a new place. After we moved out (if we stay longer than 1 month what is kinda "covered" with the deposit) we gonna pay what we own him, assuming that they would never pay our deposit back we include it to the rent.


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    #89
    pm1977x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭pm1977x


    Crusoe that is shocking - so this 'doorman' now knows when all those apts are empty during the day, not only that but also when you'll be returning - the perfect set up for a break in if he wasn't trustworthy. And that's ignoring the ludicrous nature of the arrangement in the first place, glad you're moving out, sounds unworkable and landlord should be brought to court.


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    #90
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,684 ✭✭✭jd


    Lantus wrote: »
    cheers, an interesting case and these early cases may well set a precedant. In relation to the OP I wonder why they dont just restrict access to the common areas when the debt is so high.
    The Kellys won the appeal.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/evicted-couple-win-appeal-on-receivers-appointment-29191211.html
    Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns ruled the appointment of a receiver was confined to cases where a debtor had an interest in the property concerned.

    He said it would appear the management company had not exhausted "all reasonably available avenues at law" in seeking to execute the judgment. While there had been difficulties contacting the Kellys, there were now no such problems.

    I would have thought the OMC do have an interest as they ultimately own the property (the apartment being held under leasehold).


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    #91
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    jd wrote: »
    The Kellys won the appeal.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/evicted-couple-win-appeal-on-receivers-appointment-29191211.html


    I would have thought the OMC do have an interest as they ultimately own the property (the apartment being held under leasehold).

    I wonder if the subtletly here is the fact the agent has no interest where as if the directors had applied directly they would of been awarded in their favour? As you say the company is the owner of the building

    And since they had already obtianed a court judgement for payment I wonder what the judge meant when he said there were other legal avenues available?? Surely they have sent out numerous reminder letters prior to court, or possiblynot if they claim not to of been contacted. 30k in debt and a request to pay is overturned, what do you have to do to get payment made as an OMC? Now the OMC is saddled with legal fee's from this case.

    Either way it doesn't bode well for OMC's who are already struggling to get payments made. Do we want to see apartment and estate ghettos around the country?? Rulings like this would seem to indicate yes.


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