Access to my own apartment?

crusoe

I live in an apartment block house, with car park, loads of flats, etc.

To get to the block we have to use a knob (key) which is like a magnet card, opens the main door to the building.

Now the office deactivated my knob so I can't get into the building where I live. (Only can get in if someone else goes in and let me in, or someone from inside opens it for me).

(The reason they deactivated my card because my landlord didn't pay "in time" for the knob-service, wtf)

Do they have the right to do this? To lock me out from my own apartment? I waited 40 minute last night to get in... freezing outside... I even called Garda to help me but they said its not their business)

I paid up to date for my rent....

im invisible

*fob

is there no keypad/ code to get in?

Paulw

You need to hassle your landlord. They haven't paid their management fees. Every time you can't get in, phone your landlord. He'll quickly sort the issue.

The Megaphone

crusoe wrote: »

...we have to use a knob....

crusoe wrote: »

...my landlord didn't pay "in time" for the knob-service....

While nothing is worse than being locked out (except for being locked out in the rain), i have to say what a great intro...

Anyway back to your problem; i don't think its a case that your landlord didnt pay "in time" rather he hasn't bothered paying the management fees and possibly for a while as it only takes a few seconds to reactivate a fob... I wouldnt be suprised if the management agency hasn't wrote to him and threatened to deactivate the fob on several occasions...

My advice; get out with your deposit while you can (or at least don't pay the last month's rent)...

Lantus

crusoe wrote: »

I live in an apartment block house, with car park, loads of flats, etc.

To get to the block we have to use a knob (key) which is like a magnet card, opens the main door to the building.

Now the office deactivated my knob so I can't get into the building where I live. (Only can get in if someone else goes in and let me in, or someone from inside opens it for me).

(The reason they deactivated my card because my landlord didn't pay "in time" for the knob-service, wtf)

Do they have the right to do this? To lock me out from my own apartment? I waited 40 minute last night to get in... freezing outside... I even called Garda to help me but they said its not their business)

I paid up to date for my rent....

Technically under the terms of the lease where the unit owner fails to make the annual service fee payment then the management company is legally entitled to withhold and withdraw all services and entitlements. This could potentially include use of anything in the comon areas like a door entrance. The owner has only a right of access to his apartment through which he must use the management companys building including any doors and spaces that they maintain.

I would hassle your landlord every single day and hour until its paid and you have access or else threaten to hand your notice in a very hort amount of time, say 48 hours (and be prepared to carry it out.) Unless you like the idea of a landlord getting the full rent (AND not paying and service fee's therefore being better off) while you stand outside like a muppet, then just keep paying.

djimi

You see this happen quite a bit nowadays with things like cars being clamped because the landlord has not paid their management fees. You really need to get onto the landlord and keep getting on to them until the situation is sorted. The bones of the issue is that you are currently paying rent for a property that you no longer have access to. I could be wrong in saying this but I would imagine that it would be a pretty simple lease to get out of on that basis, and the landlord is going to have a hell of a time reletting the property if nobody can get into it! Probably no harm in remind them of that...

Rhys Essien

OP,be careful,in Ireland telling people that you had trouble with your knob might result in lots of laughter.:D

crusoe

The Megaphone wrote: »

While nothing is worse than being locked out (except for being locked out in the rain), i have to say what a great intro...

Anyway back to your problem; i don't think its a case that your landlord didnt pay "in time" rather he hasn't bothered paying the management fees and possibly for a while as it only takes a few seconds to reactivate a fob... I wouldnt be suprised if the management agency hasn't wrote to him and threatened to deactivate the fob on several occasions...

My advice; get out with your deposit while you can (or at least don't pay the last month's rent)...

I already texted my landlord's man since he isn't answer the phone. So I texted him, every night I can't get in the building will cost him 65 euros which I take out from the rent, it's the cost of a hotel room that i know.

So about every week he'll lose one month pay.
And I only count one hotel room.. because I was nice. 3 people lives here.

crusoe

I got cold too... last night waiting 1 hour outside. I think I should also charge him the medication. I think i will top up my coldrex supply.

padd b1975

crusoe wrote: »

I already texted my landlord's man since he isn't answer the phone. So I texted him, every night I can't get in the building will cost him 65 euros which I take out from the rent, it's the cost of a hotel room that i know.

So about every week he'll lose one month pay.
And I only count one hotel room.. because I was nice. 3 people lives here.

Well done.

That should get things moving pretty quick his end, I would imagine.

djimi

Do everything in proper writing (registered letter); texts, emails, phone calls etc dont mean a whole lot if it comes to a dispute as its too easy to lose text/emails and deny phone calls.

Make sure that you send him a letter outlining the problem that you are having and that you expect the matter to be resolved in a reasonable time. Keep a copy of the letter for yourself. If you dont get a reply, or if the matter does not get resolved, send another letter stating that due to the nature of the issue you are going to have no choice but to take measures to terminate the tenancy unless the matter is resolved in very quick time. This might seem longwinded, but it puts you in the best position should you need to take a case against the landlord, as it shows that you have done everything by the book.

Qualitymark

Personally, I'd be looking for a new apartment, OP. It could be that your landlord is over-extended and hasn't got the money to cover the mortgage and the management fee. Did you pay a deposit?

amtc

Love, it's a fob!

crusoe

im invisible wrote: »

*fob

is there no keypad/ code to get in?

There's two way now to get in.

1. if u enter some apartmant number and they let you in...for example 2nd floor 12 flat i enter 0212 then they have a "phone" that will ring, if I can explain them why i want to get in they press the "key" and let me in...

2. I wait outside at the door while someone also want to go in and he/she let's me in....


---

Latest news is I called citizen information, i explained my problem..and they gave me number for Threshold, I called them they'll call me back soon.

djimi

Does the keypad not have a code that opens the door? From what I can see a lot of them do.

Paulw

crusoe wrote: »

There's two way now to get in.

.

Or ... just continue to hassle your landlord, who is responsible to provide you with access. :rolleyes: Call him/her every single time you need to get in or out.

Marcusm

Lantus wrote: »

Technically under the terms of the lease where the unit owner fails to make the annual service fee payment then the management company is legally entitled to withhold and withdraw all services and entitlements. This could potentially include use of anything in the comon areas like a door entrance. The owner has only a right of access to his apartment through which he must use the management companys building including any doors and spaces that they maintain.

I would be very surprised in any apartment lease contained a clause denying use of the apartment in the event of non payment of the service chanrge. While it can be common that a non paying leaseholder is unable to claim under block insurance, it would be very unusual for it to be capable of overriding the rights of way granted under the lease.

I fully support management companies' entitlements to recover service charges but this is not a reasonable means to do so.

irlirishkev

Paulw wrote: »

Or ... just continue to hassle your landlord, who is responsible to provide you with access. :rolleyes: Call him/her every single time you need to get in or out.

Exactly.
Just think, every time you get stuck outside your apartment in the cold, your Landlord is most likely sitting down nice and cosy with a cup of tea in his own home.. not caring.

I'm a landlord myself and I hate hearing about this sort of thing. The situation you're in is absolutely unacceptable.

newbie2013

If it were me, id break in. Not a chance id stand outside in the cold when ive paid my rent. Wonder what a judge would have to say about it if the guards came

athtrasna

newbie2013 wrote: »

If it were me, id break in. Not a chance id stand outside in the cold when ive paid my rent. Wonder what a judge would have to say about it if the guards came

Ignore this advice, you would be done for breaking and entering and possibly criminal damage.

OP you are a victim of your landlord here. The management company are well within their rights to deny your landlord or their tenants access to common areas, they would not have taken this action lightly. Your landlord is responsible, and that is who you need to pressure. Talk to Threshold.

athtrasna

Marcusm wrote: »

I would be very surprised in any apartment lease contained a clause denying use of the apartment in the event of non payment of the service chanrge. While it can be common that a non paying leaseholder is unable to claim under block insurance, it would be very unusual for it to be capable of overriding the rights of way granted under the lease.

I fully support management companies' entitlements to recover service charges but this is not a reasonable means to do so.

The LL has use of the apartment, they just can't use the common areas in and out of it. This action would be the last resort of any management company, the LL must be seriously in arrears. Legal notice would have to be served on the LL of any withdrawal of services so the landlord is just sitting back and waiting for things to come to a head.

What really gets me about this is that management fees are tax deductible to landlords but not owner occupiers. Then again I have a feeling this LL may not be tax compliant.

Victor

newbie2013 wrote: »

If it were me, id break in. Not a chance id stand outside in the cold when ive paid my rent. Wonder what a judge would have to say about it if the guards came

Advocating that people break the law is not acceptable.

Moderator

the_syco

crusoe wrote: »

So about every week he'll lose one month pay.

IF he pays you back, which I don't think he will. He isn't paying the management fees, so I'm thinking he won't pay you.

newbie2013

Victor wrote: »

Advocating that people break the law is not acceptable.

Moderator

Sorry, i wasnt suggesting that the op break in, its just i was stating that in no way would i stand outside in the cold while i paid my rent fully.

Paulw

newbie2013 wrote: »

Sorry, i wasnt suggesting that the op break in, its just i was stating that in no way would i stand outside in the cold while i paid my rent fully.

Really???

newbie2013 wrote: »

If it were me, id break in.

The OP should just continue to call and hassle the landlord, day and night, until the matter is resolved. The OP could also lodge a complaint with the PRTB against the landlord.

It is the landlord's responsibility to provide the access fob.

Qualitymark

Maybe OP should talk to a lawyer about the legal situation here, and whether the management has the right to lock out a rent-paying tenant on the basis of his/her landlord not paying fees, rather than asking boardsies? If the tenant has the right to get into the apartment, a solicitor should be able to sort it out tactfully without anyone's feathers being ruffled. Even if it means, say, that the tenant, landlord and management agree that a proportion of the rent be paid towards the landlord's debt.

tunedout

crusoe wrote: »

So I texted him, every night I can't get in the building will cost him 65 euros which I take out from the rent, it's the cost of a hotel room that i know.

crusoe wrote: »

. I think I should also charge him the medication. I think i will top up my coldrex supply.

money hungry foreignro

Paulw

Qualitymark wrote: »

Maybe OP should talk to a lawyer about the legal situation here, and whether the management has the right to lock out a rent-paying tenant on the basis of his/her landlord not paying fees, rather than asking boardsies? If the tenant has the right to get into the apartment, a solicitor should be able to sort it out tactfully without anyone's feathers being ruffled. Even if it means, say, that the tenant, landlord and management agree that a proportion of the rent be paid towards the landlord's debt.

Then thing here is that the OP has only recourse against the landlord. It is the landlord's responsibility to provide all necessary access to the tenant.

The management company can revoke service towards this unit owner if management fees are not paid in full.

So, the OP should chase the landlord, daily, to get the access to the unit he is renting. The landlord should pay his fees, in order to get an access fob.

Getting a solicitor involved would, again, be the OP taking action against the landlord. This can be done via the PRTB, without requiring a solicitor.

djimi

There is a wider issue here about whether or not tenants should have protection against getting caught up in a dispute between their landlord and the management company. Personally, while I understand the position of the management company, I think its absolutely ridiculous that a tenant can run the risk of having their car clamped or being locked out of their apartment because of the actions of the landlord, and I think that someone thing needs to be done to protect against such action being taken where a tenant is involved. Of course, Im aware this does not help the OP much now!

Assuming the OP has been in written contact with the landlord and the matter is still not resolved, I think the OP would be justified in moving to have the lease terminated. If the OP cannot get into the building then the landlord is charging for something that they are unable to provide, which to me sounds like very good grounds to terminate any agreement that is in place.

Victor

tunedout wrote: »

money hungry foreignro

I think you tried to be abusive here. But I'm not sure.

Don't do it.

Moderator

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

The LL has use of the apartment, they just can't use the common areas in and out of it. This action would be the last resort of any management company, the LL must be seriously in arrears. Legal notice would have to be served on the LL of any withdrawal of services so the landlord is just sitting back and waiting for things to come to a head.

What really gets me about this is that management fees are tax deductible to landlords but not owner occupiers. Then again I have a feeling this LL may not be tax compliant.

Read my post, the right of passage across the common area will be contained in the lease. To deny those rights is effectively denying use of the apartment. I can't see any solicitors being stupid enough to draft or permit those rights to be abridged administratively by a mgt co/agent. The approrpiate remedy is to seek forfeiture of the lease if the issue is serious enough.

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

There is a wider issue here about whether or not tenants should have protection against getting caught up in a dispute between their landlord and the management company. Personally, while I understand the position of the management company, I think its absolutely ridiculous that a tenant can run the risk of having their car clamped or being locked out of their apartment because of the actions of the landlord, and I think that someone thing needs to be done to protect against such action being taken where a tenant is involved.

If no action can be taken to penalise the owner such as withdrawal of access, parking etc there is no incentive to the landlord to pay the fees. The advice surely should be not to rent in a managed development or ensure that there is a clause in the lease where the landlord commits to paying the management fees.

Marcusm wrote: »

Read my post, the right of passage across the common area will be contained in the lease. To deny those rights is effectively denying use of the apartment. I can't see any solicitors being stupid enough to draft or permit those rights to be abridged administratively by a mgt co/agent. The approrpiate remedy is to seek forfeiture of the lease if the issue is serious enough.

The management company would have had to issue a notice of withdrawal of services prior to blocking the fob so I am presuming they took legal advice on this.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

If no action can be taken to penalise the owner such as withdrawal of access, parking etc there is no incentive to the landlord to pay the fees. The advice surely should be not to rent in a managed development or ensure that there is a clause in the lease where the landlord commits to paying the management fees.

I understand that it is hard for the management company to chase fees without having to such potential measures as penalties, however the problem I have is that penaoties such as the one the OP is suffering is not harming the landlord, it's directly harming their tenant who is in no way involved in the dispute and can have no direct influence over it. For the most part the tenant probably does not even know that a dispute is taking place.

It's all well and good saying not to rent in managed complexes, but considering the majority of apartment buildings are managed that would rule out a significant portion of the rental market, and make apartment rental virtually impossible. As for having a clause in the lease, that's all well and good on paper but in reality it means virtually nothing to a landlord who can't/won't pay their fees.

It's about giving protection to parties who are uninvolved and unaware of the dispute. A homeowner in dispute with the management company can be aware of such penalties and be prepared for them. Usually the first time a tenant is aware of such measures is when they come out to find their car clamped, their door fob does work, they can't get in the gate etc. That's not right, and the law needs to be changed to protect against such a situation.

Lantus

Marcusm wrote: »

Read my post, the right of passage across the common area will be contained in the lease. To deny those rights is effectively denying use of the apartment. I can't see any solicitors being stupid enough to draft or permit those rights to be abridged administratively by a mgt co/agent. The approrpiate remedy is to seek forfeiture of the lease if the issue is serious enough.

Unit owners have a right of access at all times to their apartment through comon areas like doors or stairs owned by the management company. These areas are maintained and run and heated and lit and made safe and secure through service fee's/

HOWEVER, such a right of access is CONDITIONAL upon the service fee being paid. So The failure is initially on the side of the unit owner to not pay the service charge. The company then has the option of withdrawing services for the common area services it provides.

The lease documents I have read for our development are extremely clear in tis regard and I doubt they would be wildly different anywhere else.

sharpsuit

The management agent simply does not have the legal authority to deprive the tenant of access to the apartment block simply because of an unpaid debt by the landlord.

OP has two options. One is to avail of the Residential Tenancies Act to make a complaint, through the landlord, to the management company. Given that the landlord does not appear to be responsive in this case, OP might consider the second option - an injunction against the management agent and management company to allow the tenant renewed access.

I took an injunction in a similar case and the management agent handed over the new fob on the morning we were making our application.

I also doubt that the National Property Services Regulatory Authority will approve of the actions of the management agent.

Paulw

sharpsuit wrote: »

OP has two options. One is to avail of the Residential Tenancies Act to make a complaint, through the landlord, to the management company. Given that the landlord does not appear to be responsive in this case, OP might consider the second option - an injunction against the management agent and management company to allow the tenant renewed access.

Or, the OP should simply contact the landlord every time he wants access to the building. The problem is with the landlord. Plain and simple. The OP should hassle the landlord until the situation is resolved.

Qualitymark

All the sea-lawyers here can have their opinions on the legal position of the tenant; if I were the tenant, though, I'd be looking for a sensible, non-confrontational lawyer to represent me and work out a deal with the management company and the landlord. The management company might (this is obviously not legal advice!) be prepared to allow access in exchange for part of the rent being paid to it rather than the landlord, if this was properly and legally set up in a formal agreement with landlord and tenant; this might satisfy the landlord too, who knows?

Any amount of drama-queening isn't going to solve the problem, but negotiation by a lawyer with experience and good sense may.

Lantus

Qualitymark wrote: »

All the sea-lawyers here can have their opinions on the legal position of the tenant; if I were the tenant, though, I'd be looking for a sensible, non-confrontational lawyer to represent me and work out a deal with the management company and the landlord. The management company might (this is obviously not legal advice!) be prepared to allow access in exchange for part of the rent being paid to it rather than the landlord, if this was properly and legally set up in a formal agreement with landlord and tenant; this might satisfy the landlord too, who knows?

Any amount of drama-queening isn't going to solve the problem, but negotiation by a lawyer with experience and good sense may.

Its an idea but legally there is no connection between a tenant and the management company so its a messy situation. Ultimatley the landlord needs to agree to some rent going the way of the tenant or company which is unlikley unless he's legally forced to (not possible unless his arrears are in exces of 38k and you enter high court territory.)

The easy recoure for the tenant which hurts the landlord is to hand his notice in due to breach of contract. Prior to this I would call the landlord and give say 48 hours notice that notice will be coming his way unless its resolved. Whats the point of living somewhere you can't get access to?

The entire building including main or common entrances is the property of the company and yes they do have the right to withdraw services which could be interpreted as access where any such access has a an attributable cost associated with service fee payment. Magnetic key fobs are expensive to run and maintain. The landlord wants to enjoy all these services but pay nothing in return. The company under the leas document which is a legally binding document the ower signed allows for service provision to be withdrawn where the owner fails to make service fee payments.

I am sympathetic to the tenant but I feel its better than clamping if applicable.

jd

Lantus wrote: »

Ultimatley the landlord needs to agree to some rent going the way of the tenant or company which is unlikley unless he's legally forced to (not possible unless his arrears are in exces of 38k and you enter high court territory.)
.

AFAIK Management companies have been appointed as equitable receivers in the Circuit Court.

Lantus

jd wrote: »

AFAIK Management companies have been appointed as equitable receivers in the Circuit Court.

Thats excellant news! any references you can point to?

jd

Lantus wrote: »

Thats excellant news! any references you can point to?

http://www.apartmentowners.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DEBT-COLLECTION-FOR-OMCs-JMurphy.pdf

Temple Gardens v. ‘Mr. Publican’
 Debt in excess of €16,000
 Execution Order obtained - €9,000 paid
 Consistently defaulting in payments
 Director of OMC appointed Receiver over
rents paid by Tenants to Mr. Publican
 Tenants ordered by Court to pay OMC
directly until balance of debt and costs are
discharged

Lantus

jd wrote: »

http://www.apartmentowners.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DEBT-COLLECTION-FOR-OMCs-JMurphy.pdf

cheers, had that already but must of forgotten!

athtrasna

Lantus is correct, there is no connection whatsoever between the tenant and the management company. There is essentially a flaw in the thread title, the reference to "own apartment". The management company own the apartment but would have a long term lease with the landlord (possibly up to 1000 years). The landlord then sublet to the OP.

Sharpsuit it will have been the management company not the agent who made the decision to revoke access and withdraw services. The agent was probably charged with implementing this decision but it's not their decision.

Qualitymark

athtrasna wrote: »

Lantus is correct, there is no connection whatsoever between the tenant and the management company. There is essentially a flaw in the thread title, the reference to "own apartment". The management company own the apartment but would have a long term lease with the landlord (possibly up to 1000 years). The landlord then sublet to the OP.

Wait, you mean my cousin, who bought an apartment in Dublin, in a building managed by a management company that's supposed to maintain the lifts, keep the common areas clean, etc, actually sublets it from that company, despite her contract of sale being with Dublin Corporation?

jd

Qualitymark wrote: »

Wait, you mean my cousin, who bought an apartment in Dublin, in a building managed by a management company that's supposed to maintain the lifts, keep the common areas clean, etc, actually sublets it from that company, despite her contract of sale being with Dublin Corporation?

I guess she has a long (900+) year lease. The Owner's Management Company would own the building. They may employ a Management Agency to look after the day to day affairs of the complex. Did you ask your cousin?

Qualitymark

My cousin is not available to ask, being dead now. But she bought the apartment in the same way I bought my house, with a normal contract of sale giving her ownership. The management company, as I understood it, owned a couple of apartments in the block, and was contracted with the flat owners to give them various services such as upkeep; they certainly didn't own the block, afaik.

djimi

It may well be different with council/corporation owned buildings. In general, when someone "buys" an apartment they are taking out a 1000 year lease on it or something to that effect; you dont own the building.

foggy_lad

OP you should raise the issue with your landlord one final time in writing and give them 2 weeks to resolve the issue and then you can raise the issue with the PRTB.

http://public.prtb.ie/disputes.htm

dissed doc

I think this is a pretty clear case of the landlord failing to fulfil his side of the tenancy agreement, as there is no reasonable access to the apartment. It's like renting a place but not having a key to the front door. Fobs, management companies etc., doesn't make a difference.

Tenancy agreement broken. The management co. would not have blocked access unless a lot of arrears have accumulated (at least 1 year).

Qualitymark

djimi wrote: »

It may well be different with council/corporation owned buildings. In general, when someone "buys" an apartment they are taking out a 1000 year lease on it or something to that effect; you dont own the building.

This wasn't bought from the Corporation, but the Corpo was the lender.

But from what's described here, it sounds analogous to ground rent. My house's ground rent (if I hadn't bought it out) would have meant I was renting the ground on which my house stood for something like 1,000 years for a peppercorn rent. I'd be pretty damn fazed if my ground landlord decided to put a lock on my gate because I missed payments on the ground rent!

athtrasna

Qualitymark wrote: »

This wasn't bought from the Corporation, but the Corpo was the lender.

But from what's described here, it sounds analogous to ground rent. My house's ground rent (if I hadn't bought it out) would have meant I was renting the ground on which my house stood for something like 1,000 years for a peppercorn rent. I'd be pretty damn fazed if my ground landlord decided to put a lock on my gate because I missed payments on the ground rent!

In an apartment situation your floor can be a neighbour's ceiling. You share a roof and front and rear walls not to mention foundations, drains etc. It is not possible to own such apartments outright.