Would you wear an Easter Lily?

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

Part of which was to get the peoples they suppressed to wear the poppy and be afraid to speak truthfully about what they where at around the world.

There is some further explanation required on this, please.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

For the common good, prosperity, wealth, glory, trade, power, spreading the English language and culture and bringing democracy and justice to the(ir) world. Someone talked about "the Empire of good intentions".

and to paraphrase what Ivan Illich said about the Americans,

'...and this innate sense of goodwill, frequently allowed them to bomb people into the acceptance of gifts.'

They are still at it with the Americans.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

and to paraphrase what Ivan Illich said about the Americans,

'...and this innate sense of goodwill, frequently allowed them to bomb people into the acceptance of gifts.'

They are still at it with the Americans.

Such is the price of a "lost" Empire.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Crooked Jack wrote: »

"Go to war for us and we'll give you home rule."
They went to war. They were rewarded with the black and tans.
Duped. Tricked. Conned.



Feel free to honour them when you wear your lily.

It don't think it's correct to say that anyone was duped or conned. The third Home Rule Act was passed in 1914 but was suspended with the outbreak of WW1, so it wasn't a promise, it was something which had already been achieved. Even John Redmond the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party encouraged Irish men to join the war effort at that point.

The public's attitude changed over the 4 war years with influences like the Rising etc.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

Such is the price of a "lost" Empire.

That is the rationale that allowed them to build an empire, and it's the same rationale (that the 'greater good' is somehow being served)) that allows people to wear the poppy while forgetting those who stood up to the bullies.
It never dawns on them that events like 9-11 are a direct result of this international bullying.

space_man

No.
nor would i wear a poppy btw.

Fratton Fred

TheLastMohican wrote: »

I am going to withdraw from this debate. If Fratton Fred is representative of contemporary British thinking, it shows that they have not learned much from their enslavement, subjugation, rape, pillage and murder of peoples in their own land.
If empire building was right then, how come they are not doing it now?
Why have Britain fought so many wars?

In other words, you aren't able to debate any of the points raised, so you are going home.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

That is the rationale that allowed them to build an empire, and it's the same rationale (that the 'greater good' is somehow being served)) that allows people to wear the poppy while forgetting those who stood up to the bullies.
It never dawns on them that events like 9-11 are a direct result of this international bullying.

Oh would you stop trying to label millions of people based on your own petty prejudice.

The poppy and the Lilly, morally similar. Yes or no?

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

That is the rationale that allowed them to build an empire, and it's the same rationale (that the 'greater good' is somehow being served)) that allows people to wear the poppy while forgetting those who stood up to the bullies.
It never dawns on them that events like 9-11 are a direct result of this international bullying.

You may have a point in this. I wouldn´t go that far to assume that this might be your "justification" for 9/11, am I right?

What´s wrong with bringing democracy to the world? Are you more confirm with people fleeing their countries to seek asylum in safe Western countries because the regimes back home there are much worse oppressive than the British ever have been?

You seem to neglect that Britain is also backing those seeking a modern democratic society build in their home countries and resist sectarian oligarchs. It´s not a cause of Empire anymore, it is I admit a cause of World Power but with it the cause of World Peace and security.

I can imagine that you´d have no problem in neglecting the fact that British soldiers returning home from their abroad service are received by protests from British Muslims opposing these soldiers service and by doing so backing up the radical Islamists just for the cause of their "common faith". What a sick world that is.

Thomas_I

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh would you stop trying to label millions of people based on your own petty prejudice.

The poppy and the Lilly, morally similar. Yes or no?

To answer the question for myself, a clear and straightforward yes!

space_man

Thomas_I wrote: »

To answer the question for myself, a clear and straightforward yes!

both seek to glorify/justify/commemorate violence, and the needless waste of young life.

"waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda ..........."

Iwasfrozen

Thomas_I wrote: »

What´s wrong with bringing democracy to the world? Are you more confirm with people fleeing their countries to seek asylum in safe Western countries because the regimes back home there are much worse oppressive than the British ever have been?

Oh silly Thomas, don't you know that oppression is only ever the result of foreign invasion?

R P McMurphy

Thomas_I wrote: »

You may have a point in this. I wouldn´t go that far to assume that this might be your "justification" for 9/11, am I right?

What´s wrong with bringing democracy to the world? Are you more confirm with people fleeing their countries to seek asylum in safe Western countries because the regimes back home there are much worse oppressive than the British ever have been?

You seem to neglect that Britain is also backing those seeking a modern democratic society build in their home countries and resist sectarian oligarchs. It´s not a cause of Empire anymore, it is I admit a cause of World Power but with it the cause of World Peace and security.

I can imagine that you´d have no problem in neglecting the fact that British soldiers returning home from their abroad service are received by protests from British Muslims opposing these soldiers service and by doing so backing up the radical Islamists just for the cause of their "common faith". What a sick world that is.

Might be better not to sell arms either directly or indirectly to these same regimes before trying to spread democracy to them

Thomas_I

space_man wrote: »

both seek to glorify/justify/commemorate violence, and the needless waste of young life.

"waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda ..........."

I really don´t see it that way, I see it the other way round, the mourning of the fallen and the horrors of war. No glorification or justification at all. That is my perception of remembrance day in London and the commemoration of the Easter Rising in Dublin, both conducted by each government.

Happyman42

Yes, we will establish 'democracy' that just happens to be in a place of strategic value or sitting on top of vast wealth. The west needs vast wealth you see and by the way, you don't mind if we bomb your women and children while we establish democracy for you.

Thomas_I

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh silly Thomas, don't you know that oppression is only ever the result of foreign invasion?

No it is not, because there are plenty examples in history and in the present time that proves you wrong which means "home made dictatorship" on an international assessment.

Thomas_I

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Might be better not to sell arms either directly or indirectly to these same regimes before trying to spread democracy to them

Quite right.

R P McMurphy

Thomas_I wrote: »

Quite right.

If that is the case then why do it, is kind of at odds with 'the cause of World Peace and security'

Iwasfrozen

Thomas_I wrote: »

No it is not, because there are plenty examples in history and in the present time that proves you wrong which means "home made dictatorship" on an international assessment.

lol, I agree with you but honestly reading what some people write you'd think they believed that.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, we will establish 'democracy' that just happens to be in a place of strategic value or sitting on top of vast wealth. The west needs vast wealth you see and by the way, you don't mind if we bomb your women and children while we establish democracy for you.

Tell that the people fighting for freedom in their own countries to disencourage them to keep fighting on for a better future of their own.

Thomas_I

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol, I agree with you but honestly reading what some people write you'd think they believed that.

That is left to the reader himself. Wouldn´t you agree that there is very much simplification and generalization in threads like this? Perhaps the irony in some posts is easy to be overlooked (by the reader of course).

Thomas_I

R P McMurphy wrote: »

If that is the case then why do it, is kind of at odds with 'the cause of World Peace and security'

"Money makes the world go around ..." That´s the whole truth.

gallag

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Might be better not to sell arms either directly or indirectly to these same regimes before trying to spread democracy to them

Thats what keeps the schools and hospitals open. You cant have it both ways, even ireland in receiving euros from the wealthier European countries benefits from the arms industry. David Cameron has been touring Saudi and now India peddling fighter jets and missiles and how many irish people benefit from the jobs created in the defence sector?

Its sad but all these countries doing all the things you hate are directly responsible for your cosy safe existence, I am not saying I disagree with you but if I had to choose between the hospitals closing and my kids being in danger/starving to make a moral stand?? The biggest bastards are at the top of the pile. You know the only thing that stopped ireland building a bigger empire than Britain? Ability! Not higher morals. And you can bet if ireland had the choice of making billions selling military hardware it would.

R P McMurphy

gallag wrote: »

Thats what keeps the schools and hospitals open. You cant have it both ways, even ireland in receiving euros from the wealthier European countries benefits from the arms industry. David Cameron has been touring Saudi and now India peddling fighter jets and missiles and how many irish people benefit from the jobs created in the defence sector?

Its sad but all these countries doing all the things you hate are directly responsible for your cosy safe existence, I am not saying I disagree with you but if I had to choose between the hospitals closing and my kids being in danger/starving to make a moral stand?? The biggest bastards are at the top of the pile. You know the only thing that stopped ireland building a bigger empire than Britain? Ability! Not higher morals. And you can bet if ireland had the choice of making billions selling military hardware it would.

I am under no illusion that Ireland is directly and indirectly involved in the arms trade, specifically in high end components. And it might not be billions but is certainly estimated to be over the 1 billion mark. And no I wouldn't accept that the arms trade is 'responsible for my cosy existance'.

To claim on the one hand that recent wars have been about spreading democracy and then acknowledging that the very same people proporting this have been selling weapons directly and indirectly to the very same people they now want to oust is a joke. Reminds me of a Bill Hicks routine on revelations

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

Thats what keeps the schools and hospitals open. You cant have it both ways, even ireland in receiving euros from the wealthier European countries benefits from the arms industry. David Cameron has been touring Saudi and now India peddling fighter jets and missiles and how many irish people benefit from the jobs created in the defence sector?

Its sad but all these countries doing all the things you hate are directly responsible for your cosy safe existence, I am not saying I disagree with you but if I had to choose between the hospitals closing and my kids being in danger/starving to make a moral stand?? The biggest bastards are at the top of the pile. You know the only thing that stopped ireland building a bigger empire than Britain? Ability! Not higher morals. And you can bet if ireland had the choice of making billions selling military hardware it would.

Good post there, just the ability thing for the Irish isn´t what I share with your thoughts. I rather believe that the Irish had no intentions to build an Empire for themselves, they would rather had chosen to be left alone among themselves and not getting into an forced marriage with Britain. But I do not object your last sentence, by all means.

Happyman42

gallag wrote: »

The biggest bastards are at the top of the pile. You know the only thing that stopped ireland building a bigger empire than Britain? Ability! Not higher morals. And you can bet if ireland had the choice of making billions selling military hardware it would.

We stayed neutral even though it may have brought in a few shekels for the childer had we joined the Allies, we weren't bullied by Churchill, would that the Brits would stand up to America now, then the world REALLY would be a better place.

If it's wrong, call it wrong. Schools and hospitals supported by raping some other country??? No thanks.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

I rather believe that the Irish had no intentions to build an Empire for themselves,

Shure, we had no where to keep the prisoners! :rolleyes:

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

We stayed neutral even though it may have brought in a few shekels for the childer had we joined the Allies, we weren't bullied by Churchill, would that the Brits would stand up to America now, then the world REALLY would be a better place.

If it's wrong, call it wrong. Schools and hospitals supported by raping some other country??? No thanks.

With handing over the wappons the responsibility what they recepient is doing with it goes wíth that and is no more in the hands of the seller. You can tell it "blood money" if you like, but that´s how such business works and ever worked.

R P McMurphy

Thomas_I wrote: »

With handing over the wappons the responsibility what they recepient is doing with it goes wíth that and is no more in the hands of the seller. You can tell it "blood money" if you like, but that´s how such business works and ever worked.

That is absolute rubbish. Arming countries with atrocious human rights records is facilitating their grip on power.

Fratton Fred

Thomas_I wrote: »

Good post there, just the ability thing for the Irish isn´t what I share with your thoughts. I rather believe that the Irish had no intentions to build an Empire for themselves, they would rather had chosen to be left alone among themselves and not getting into an forced marriage with Britain. But I do not object your last sentence, by all means.

On what do you base that assumption? Why would the Irish have been any different to the rest of Europe?