Hare coursing - a good thing?

adamkane

Here's an interesting post going against the proposal to ban Hare coursing in Ireland from a conservation perspective. Thoughts?

http://www.ecoevoblog.com/2013/02/15/coursing-conundrum/

OpenYourEyes

My only concern would be that the muzzling of dogs and the policy (requirement?) that each Hare only ever takes part in coursing once in its lifetime are possibly not always strictly monitored and adhered to?

If dogs didn't/don't have muzzles i think its an absolutely barbaric 'sport', but if they are muzzled and Hare's undergo stress for only a brief period of time, with low mortality risk, that ultimately significantly enhances the population and other widlife, then I'm ok with it. Obviously I'd rather we just managed to countryside better in general, but in the absence of that coursing provides some benefits.

Hollzy

Thanks for sharing. I must say I agree with the author completely, particularly considering the dogs are muzzled. Realistically there would be no funding from the government to create a conservation initiative for the hare if this was banned. And I wasn't aware of coursing before this article so I imagine it's happening on a small scale. Though I suppose that probably depends on which part of the country you're in.

OpenYourEyes

A reply on that blog from a Fintan Kelly, on what seems to be the behalf of the IWT:
(hope its ok to post the full thing)

The IWT considers the practice of hare coursing to be cruel and barbaric and believes it has no place in the twenty first century.

As I’m sure you are aware Ireland unlike many other Island nations of its size has a paucity of fauna which we could label as truly endemic or even native for that matter. This should, we believe, afford the Irish hare (Lepus timidus hibernicus) a special place in the Irish psyche and in our conservation legislation. Instead we have the bizarre contradiction where we as an Irish conservation group have to justify our opposition to the persecution of an internationally protected speices (Annex III species under the Bern convention and Annex IV of the Habitats Directive).

The IWT would disagree that hare coursing is a ‘popular sport’ as you put it. We would consider it to be far removed from any of the values one would commonly associate with sport and would prefer to label it what it is – a cruel practice that should be consigned to the bygone age that it belongs. The fact that coursing has been banned in Northern Ireland in 2010, Scotland in 2002 and in England and Wales in 2005 might undermine the assertion of its popularity.

We fully support people enjoying the countryside and exercising their dogs however a person and their dogs enjoyment should not be at the expense of other people or our native wildlife.

The fact that the hare isn’t dismembered is positive from a conservation and animal welfare point of view however we should be capable of taking that extra quantum leap and removing the part were the hare is harassed at all. The fact that the hare does not die immediately due to the fact that the dogs are muzzled does not mean that the hare may not sustain serious injuries which, when returned to the wild, may consign it to a slow death.

We recognise that habitat loss and agricultural intensification over the preceding decades are the main cause of the historical decrease in hare numbers. We are fully aware of studies from Northern Ireland and elsewhere that found that parts of the countryside that are specifically managed for hares actually have higher hare numbers compared to the rest of the countryside at large. Hare numbers are higher in these areas due to favorable management regimes which we would agree with, however the persecution of native carnivores such as foxes to artificially increase the hare population is something we cannot support. From a conservation point of view persecuting a group of native species to increase the numbers of another so it can in turn be harassed for the enjoyment of a small portion of society has no merit. The study in Northern Ireland did not also take into account the fact that quite often after coursing events, hares captured outside these reserves are often not released back to their point of origin,but instead are released into these designated hare reserves, due to the absence of a tag and release system. This too would artificially bulk up hare numbers in hare reserves at the expense of populations in other areas.
We would hope for an increase in the lands designated for the protection of native wildlife and the increased implementation of policies that would be favorable to not only the hare but all of our native species.

Source:[URL="[URL]http://www.ecoevoblog.com/2013/02/15/coursing-conundrum/"]http://www.ecoevoblog.com/2013/02/15/coursing-conundrum/[/URL[/URL]]

Interesting criticism of the paper underlined, I hadn't considered that, although I'll have to read it again to see if it holds up.

Hollzy

I think the IWT should start working on a proper hare conservation scheme and policies before they petition for a ban on hare coursing. As stated in the article, people who participate in coursing will have no incentive to keep that land as good hare habitat should it be banned, so there needs to be a decent conservation project to make up for this.

Hollzy

Also, it's worth reading the author's response to that reply.

Thank you for your feedback Fintan, these issues need to be discussed and debated. It is a very difficult issue, and I would like to note that part of the reason I decided to pen the article in the first place is because I would have described myself as anti-coursing before undertaking this bit of research. Welfare issues are of the utmost importance, and indeed should be considered fully and independently in relation to the ban. I merely wished to highlight the other issues of habitat conservation and associated species protection which must also be considered with regard to coursing impacts. I personally agree that the Irish hare should of course hold a special place in our minds. From my reading, coursing may not necessarily be detrimental to this. It is well known that many hunters hold their target species in extremely high regard. However, such emotive considerations are unhelpful in a scientific discussion of coursing impacts in relation to conservation.

In an ideal world, of course we would have the requisite public and financial support for habitat and species conservation to facilitate the banning of coursing without concerns in relation to habitat destruction. We are not quite at that ideal stage yet in my opinion, and the support, and indeed, the species specific knowledge of gamekeepers can be invaluable to conservation efforts. My use of the word “popular” was in reference to the c. 35,000 attendance at the National Meet in Clonmel, a substantial number of followers of the sport. It is my understanding that illegal (and I might add, unregulated and unmuzzled) coursing continues to be a problem in the UK, and there were fears expressed in the Burns Inquiry (2000) that post-ban, some farmers would even remove hares from their land in efforts to prevent such illegal practice taking place.

In relation to your point on the release of coursed hares into ICC preserves away from the location of origin, again, it is my understanding that the majority of hares for coursing are taken through organised beats taking place in ICC preserves. Indeed, that is the function and role of the ICC preserves; to provide a continuous supply of hares for coursing.

Policy and designated SACs and SPAs are of course the preferred and ideal way forward for conservation. It is my feeling that, at this point in time, public support for designating funds for the setting up, maintaining and monitoring of reserves is at a low and, as observed with the proposed EU agricultural policy, environmental activities are often the first to be sidelined. Any pursuit which promotes conservation and management of habitat suited to hares and farmland birds, not just in designated SACs but throughout our countryside, is something which should not be considered lightly. It is this point which I hoped to express in the article.

maria_81

Interesting. Up till now my understanding of coursing was based upon the movie Snatch.

I'd like to know how do the 4.1% of coursed hares die - is it intentional? Are many hares injured?

dodderangler

maria_81 wrote: »

Interesting. Up till now my understanding of coursing was based upon the movie Snatch.

I'd like to know how do the 4.1% of coursed hares die - is it intentional? Are many hares injured?

Very small percentage of hares are caught
It's not about catching the hare
It's about turning the hare
I'm all about old traditions and really think it'd be big upset to ban it
Next they'll want to ban falconry and I certainly won't be happy about that
Can't imagine giving that up

OpenYourEyes

dodderangler wrote: »

Very small percentage of hares are caught
It's not about catching the hare
It's about turning the hare
I'm all about old traditions and really think it'd be big upset to ban it
Next they'll want to ban falconry and I certainly won't be happy about that
Can't imagine giving that up

I keep hearing the "next they'll want to ban X,Y,Z" argument crop up in discussions about Hare coursing, and its a horrible way to make your mind up on something like this! Nobody should make their mind up on hare coursing based on another activity that's barely related to it!

Some people on the AH thread said "next they'll ban fishing", which is madness! There's a lot more people involved in fishing throughout the country than there are involved in Hare coursing, and a much broader spectrum of people too, so if they did attempt to ban it (which they have never mentioned and won't - like falconry and various types of shooting) they'd be met with much more resistance. So thats just one example of where the "I'm taking this viewpoint because if I don't they'll go after my hobby next" argument is simply bad and harmful argument.

Another example would be fox hunting with hounds - plenty of people who shoot foxes would go against a ban on that, not because they hunt on horseback and with hounds, but because they think "we'll be next". Again, not true! I think fox hunting on horseback and with hounds is a brutal 'tradition' that should be banned, 'bloodsport' is a very accurate word, and it does little or nothing in controlling fox numbers. However, I fully support the need to shoot foxes (etc.) where they are causing problems and would actively resist any attempt to ban that (not that there EVER would be any). They're two similar things, but the range and number of people who support the two vary a huge amount! So again, it does not immediately follow that banning one will eventually lead to the other being banned.

So these issues aren't about one group set against rural activities, and the other group in favour of them - don't think that if falconry or shooting or something else was to be debated that you could only rely on the people who wanted to keep Hare coursing - there are plenty of people who critically evaluate each discussion as they come. These things are won and lost by the 'middle' group and that middle group changes from issue to issue, so take each discussion and argument as it comes and don't assume that if Hare coursing is banned that another outdoor activity is 'next'.

(I realise you said you'd like to keep it because you like old traditions etc., the above was just in response to the last part you mentioned!)

(also I feel I should add that I'm not sure if I'm in favour of the ban or not - I think I'm not, but I'd like some reassurance that dogs are actually muzzled every time, that every Hare is only put through it once, and that coursing clubs don't wander around the countryside taking Hares from wherever they want)

maria_81

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I keep hearing the "next they'll want to ban X,Y,Z" argument crop up in discussions about Hare coursing, and its a horrible way to make your mind up on something like this! Nobody should make their mind up on hare coursing based on another activity that's barely related to it!

I completely agree. Something is either right or it's wrong. It's either cruel or it's not. Bringing another issue into the argument doesn't help

Hollzy

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Another example would be fox hunting with hounds - plenty of people who shoot foxes would go against a ban on that, not because they hunt on horseback and with hounds, but because they think "we'll be next". Again, not true! I think fox hunting on horseback and with hounds is a brutal 'tradition' that should be banned, 'bloodsport' is a very accurate word, and it does little or nothing in controlling fox numbers. However, I fully support the need to shoot foxes (etc.) where they are causing problems and would actively resist any attempt to ban that (not that there EVER would be any). They're two similar things, but the range and number of people who support the two vary a huge amount! So again, it does not immediately follow that banning one will eventually lead to the other being banned.

I completely agree with everything in this paragraph! I think today is the day that a decision on whether or not to ban hare coursing and fox hunting will be made in the Dáil. Interesting to see what the result will be. I imagine neither will be banned....

dodderangler

Can I ask what the problem with hare coursing is with you people that disagree on it?
What is your beef with it?

OpenYourEyes

I have a lot of problems with the old style hare coursing where the Hare was often ripped to shreds. The requirements to have dogs muzzled and only let each Hare run once mean that isn't as much of a concern (although I'd like some reassurance that its properly regulated). I'd also like reassurance that coursing clubs don't just drive around the country grabbing Hares from anywhere to use at meets, that they take them from a self-sustaining population in an area that they manage.

I still don't like the idea of terrorizing a Hare like that, but if the dogs are muzzled, Hares only run once etc then the conservation benefits far outweigh the animal welfare issues.

So I actually fall into the pro- more than anti-Hare coursing camp really, although its not something I'd ever take part in I don't think it'd be a good move to ban it.

So my, and most peoples, problem with it is that its putting a huge amount of stress on an animal, which is compeltely unnecessary, and therfore cruel. It's like what I said above re: fox hunting and fox shooting - if something has to be killed, fair enough, but do it quickly and don't drag it out and have the animal needlessly suffer.

dodderangler

There are coursing clubs in Ireland and do abide by rules where dogs are muzzled and the hares are released after tournaments and take a lot of pride in their dogs and treat the hares with a lot of respect
But like everything else there are illegal one where the dogs are not muzzled and hares do get caught the odd time and killed
Banning hare coursing will not stop illegal ones happening and is not fair on the lads that treasure this sport and even lads in the clubs don't approve of this type of coursing

OpenYourEyes

dodderangler wrote: »

There are coursing clubs in Ireland and do abide by rules where dogs are muzzled and the hares are released after tournaments and take a lot of pride in their dogs and treat the hares with a lot of respect
But like everything else there are illegal one where the dogs are not muzzled and hares do get caught the odd time and killed
Banning hare coursing will not stop illegal ones happening and is not fair on the lads that treasure this sport and even lads in the clubs don't approve of this type of coursing

I completely agree!
I said I'm in favour of hare coursing but I'd like more of a clamp down on the illegal ones - and the ones who do everything by the book could/should welcome that because it'd be further proof that they are doing everything by the letter of the law and with the welfare of the dogs and hare as a high priority - that'd strengthen their argument and help reassure anyone who isn't too sure how they feel about Hare coursing.

dodderangler

It's not fair on them that put a lot of time an effort to keep the tradition of coursing going and lads are doing it the illegal way
It's like the majority of people including myself that do hunting. People out there are poaching and ruining it for the rest of us
The decline in deer in this country is a lot down to people shooting them at night taking a few heads a night
Most lads that hunt deer will only take prob 20 in a year

ford2600

The decline in deer in this country

Not to hijack tread put I see no evidence of that in my area. Population is expanding even with a healthy number of lads hunting, including a fair few night time cowboys.
Not sure how much some of the hunters know about deer herds and best practice in relation to culling, a lot of lads looking for big antlers.
Have rifle myself but only shoot when they start to damage forestry.
Hare is alive and well with a huge untouched habitat also, regularly see when on mountain bike. Deer are so plentiful they are the biggest hazard on my winter nightime mountain bike spins.
On topic, I'd be very slow to ban hare coursing when there is evidence it could affect negatively the overall population.

dodderangler wrote: »

It's not fair on them that put a lot of time an effort to keep the tradition of coursing going and lads are doing it the illegal way
It's like the majority of people including myself that do hunting. People out there are poaching and ruining it for the rest of us
The decline in deer in this country is a lot down to people shooting them at night taking a few heads a night
Most lads that hunt deer will only take prob 20 in a year

old hippy

All sports involving the use of animals for our pleasure is wrong. I'm with the saboteurs and other similar heroes on this one.

dodderangler

old hippy wrote: »

All sports involving the use of animals for our pleasure is wrong. I'm with the saboteurs and other similar heroes on this one.

No surprise considering your username!
As for your hero quote - made me chuckle

dodderangler

ford2600 wrote: »

The decline in deer in this country

Not to hijack tread put I see no evidence of that in my area. Population is expanding even with a healthy number of lads hunting, including a fair few night time cowboys.
Not sure how much some of the hunters know about deer herds and best practice in relation to culling, a lot of lads looking for big antlers.
Have rifle myself but only shoot when they start to damage forestry.
Hare is alive and well with a huge untouched habitat also, regularly see when on mountain bike. Deer are so plentiful they are the biggest hazard on my winter nightime mountain bike spins.
On topic, I'd be very slow to ban hare coursing when there is evidence it could affect negatively the overall population.

I agree that there is plenty about but they are still in decline
Numbers aren't as big as they used to be
A lot of land I hunt has had forestry cut right down and the deer have gone else where
I have noticed hare around alot more
Land that I hunt with my Harris hawk has very little rabbits on it and for first time in few years I came across hares and plenty aswell
My Harris hawk went after one and few weeks later almost everyday I seen one or two

ford2600

Hares and rabbit are rarely seen on same territory no?

dodderangler wrote: »

I agree that there is plenty about but they are still in decline
Numbers aren't as big as they used to be
A lot of land I hunt has had forestry cut right down and the deer have gone else where
I have noticed hare around alot more
Land that I hunt with my Harris hawk has very little rabbits on it and for first time in few years I came across hares and plenty aswell
My Harris hawk went after one and few weeks later almost everyday I seen one or two

dodderangler

No argument there
I don't know where the rabbits went
But seems more hares than rabbits
It's up on edge if a mountainside

ford2600

Are you with the saboteurs who released mink from mink farms in this country?

old hippy wrote: »

All sports involving the use of animals for our pleasure is wrong. I'm with the saboteurs and other similar heroes on this one.

dodderangler

ford2600 wrote: »

Are you with the saboteurs who released mink from mink farms in this country?

Best not to get involved
I'm pretty sure I've had arguments with this person before over shooting foxes

ford2600

I only ever see hare up high, over about 600ft.
About 25 years ago had a resident hare on farm for a while. Farm at 280ft.
Never seen since.
Place alive with rabbitts though.
Hare is one of my favourite animals.

dodderangler

I've seen them in the midlands and land I hunted with my father years ago in Virginia Cavan was crawling with hares
They are lovely animals
Pity taste ain't great :P
I wouldn't shoot one again . noise off them isn't nice but my Harris hawk does try catch them

maria_81

dodderangler wrote: »

There are coursing clubs in Ireland and do abide by rules where dogs are muzzled and the hares are released after tournaments and take a lot of pride in their dogs and treat the hares with a lot of respect
But like everything else there are illegal one where the dogs are not muzzled and hares do get caught the odd time and killed
Banning hare coursing will not stop illegal ones happening and is not fair on the lads that treasure this sport and even lads in the clubs don't approve of this type of coursing

Interesting.

I completely agree that banning something rarely does away with the worst elements on it. The people who are already breaking the rules aren't going to be deterred by the law no matter what it says.

old hippy

dodderangler wrote: »

Best not to get involved
I'm pretty sure I've had arguments with this person before over shooting foxes

Barbaric.

dodderangler

old hippy wrote: »

Barbaric.

Sue me then

Mickeroo

old hippy wrote: »

Barbaric.

dodderangler wrote: »

Sue me then

Both of you, discuss the topic or don't post.

dodderangler

Mickeroo wrote: »

Both of you, discuss the topic or don't post.

If you look at my previous posts I have been discussing the topic!

old hippy

Mickeroo wrote: »

Both of you, discuss the topic or don't post.

The topic is "Hare coursing - a good thing".

I don't believe it's a "good thing" and I find such "sport" to be barbaric. I'm not sure if my opposition to hare coursing is off topic

dodderangler

No you basically said I was barbaric for shooting foxes

old hippy

dodderangler wrote: »

No you basically said I was barbaric for shooting foxes

This is what you said

"I'm pretty sure I've had arguments with this person before over shooting foxes"

I have no idea if we've ever had arguments over shooting foxes, so I voiced my opinion on what I believe such a thing is - barbaric.

I apply the same to hare coursing.

Mickeroo

old hippy wrote: »

The topic is "Hare coursing - a good thing".

I don't believe it's a "good thing" and I find such "sport" to be barbaric. I'm not sure if my opposition to hare coursing is off topic

One word posts are not discussing, it looked more like you were trying to get a reaction.

If you have a problem with a mod decision in future please take it to PM.

Now back on topic please.